Comic Book Resources

Lester C. · 10-01-2005, 07:55 AM

I do believe I am the only person at my health club that brings comic books instead of novels while performing a cardio routine. Currently while sweating and being forced to listen to god awful pop music I am rereading each issue of Gail Simone’s definitive Birds of Prey run and one thing has become crystal clear to me. Every moment of this book that has contained Savant and Creote is pure magic. Hell even when the boys aren’t together in the book they still provide classic moments. I want these guys to have an ongoing series but only if it’s written by Gail as I don’t think anyone else can capture the chemistry between Savant and Creote the way she does.

blackcanary_416 · 10-01-2005, 10:30 PM

I agree they are cool! I just have a major grudge against them for what they did to my Dinah ::remembers when she kicked the crap out of Savant:: :)

Lester C. · 10-01-2005, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackcanary_416

I agree they are cool! I just have a major grudge against them for what they did to my Dinah ::remembers when she kicked the crap out of Savant:: :)

Yea, someone agrees with me. What they did to Dinah is part of their appeal in the sense of that their book would serve a chronicle to them becoming heroes. So many books start off with their protagonist already being real life heroes before getting superpowers. While there is nothing wrong with that I’m always up for a good coming of age story or in this case a story about redemption and absolution for past sins.

In the issue you mentioned, the one where Brian and Dinah go at it, after the fight Savant mentions that he was sorry and that he never planned on being cruel to Dinah. Initially he wanted to play the role of a merciful jailer but things got out of hand when Dinah laughed and mocked him. He went on to apologize and beg for forgiveness which Dinah refused to give which is perfectly understandable. If someone broke my arms and legs and held me captive I’d still be angry even after a heartfelt apology.

Um I’d hate to nitpick with the only person thus far that agrees with me but Canary did not kick the crap out of Savant. Yes she clearly won the fight with a nerve cluster move she learned from Shiva but Huntress had to help her out of the building where they fought took Canary to the hospital. Savant does have most of Batman fighting ability after all but none of his radar and is almost as much as a technical genius as Oracle.

FantomasPR · 10-02-2005, 04:45 AM

I would have preferred the duo to be the girls' main rogues, but I have enjoyed their appearances as part of the Huntress' gang.

**Gail Simone** · 10-02-2005, 07:28 AM

I very rarely do this, but I thought I'd talk a little bit about the creation of those two characters.

First, I wanted a villain who could compete with both Oracle and Canary, but I also wanted him to not be some perfect genius type, but rather a flawed and slightly non-functioning guy. The freak with the knife who doesn't know what day it is is a lot scarier to me than the supergenius from planet Kleplock or whatever.

Also, it's funny, but so few supervillains are actually hot guys. Lots of muscle types, but few are model pretty, and I like the friction that brings. Like, say, Dinah, Savant is aware of how he looks, but a bit dismissive of it. It's not really important to him.

First, we were told he couldn't be called Savant because of a pre-existing character, but that eventually went away. Creote was created so that Dinah would have someone to play her mind games on and for Savant to have someone to talk to, rather than have all his dialogue be captions.

Originally, Savant was going to die. This was my first script for DC, I didn't really know the people there, but when I turned the script in, I got this HUGE response from DC peeps saying, "Don't KILL THIS GUY!" They wanted him soundly defeated, but the editors liked the character so much they wanted him to live to be used again.

Which was okay, because I became really fond of him, especially the never-knowing-time foible. And the relationship between Creote and Savant seemed pretty rich for new characters. But remember, I was still very, very new so my judgment, I felt, could simply be that of a newbie a bit too in love with her creations.

But what happened is, from issue two on, Savant and even Creote started getting fan mail. Not just, 'ooh, good villains,' but, 'oooh, I love these characters!' And apparently, that's a bit weird for DC, because they were surprised as well. One month, we got more mail about Savant and Creote than we did about Oracle, Huntress, and Canary combined. I still get mail about them all the time.

Everyone says you can't have real change in mainstream comics, which is just nonsense...it just has to be honest, logical, and organic. We saved Savant so he could be a major Birds villain, but very quickly, it became apparent that he wanted direction, as he had never had any in his life, and he slowly started to see Oracle as a shot at some redemption and meaning in his life.

The problem is always, with background characters, that they can sort of push the main characters out, and as much as I love Brian and Creote, I love the Birds more, so that can't happen. But we've been asked many times to do an all Savant and Creote issue. I don't see that happening any time soon, but Savant DOES have a major plot coming very very soon.

Creote's devotion for Savant is one of my favorite elements of the book, and the fact that Dinah put it all together with just a few clues and some body language showed an important quality of the Canary. If it's not on the net, Oracle can miss a detail like that, but Dinah reads people extremely well.

That's about it! Thanks for the kind words!

Gail

jwmojo · 10-02-2005, 08:43 AM

A couple of times here on the YABS boards, I've read someone comment that "Gail doesn't like to talk about her writing." And, like you said, I guess it does only happen rarely, but, just the same, I really enjoyed this post.

Thanks, Gail!

blackcanary_416 · 10-02-2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lester Carthan

Yea, someone agrees with me. What they did to Dinah is part of their appeal in the sense of that their book would serve a chronicle to them becoming heroes. So many books start off with their protagonist already being real life heroes before getting superpowers. While there is nothing wrong with that I’m always up for a good coming of age story or in this case a story about redemption and absolution for past sins.

In the issue you mentioned, the one where Brian and Dinah go at it, after the fight Savant mentions that he was sorry and that he never planned on being cruel to Dinah. Initially he wanted to play the role of a merciful jailer but things got out of hand when Dinah laughed and mocked him. He went on to apologize and beg for forgiveness which Dinah refused to give which is perfectly understandable. If someone broke my arms and legs and held me captive I’d still be angry even after a heartfelt apology.

Um I’d hate to nitpick with the only person thus far that agrees with me but Canary did not kick the crap out of Savant. Yes she clearly won the fight with a nerve cluster move she learned from Shiva but Huntress had to help her out of the building where they fought took Canary to the hospital. Savant does have most of Batman fighting ability after all but none of his radar and is almost as much as a technical genius as Oracle.

Oh I agree I guess me rooting for BC I took the issue as her having the upper hand when she did that move. :)

TCJohnson · 10-02-2005, 09:02 AM

What's the deal with those two characters anyway? I keep meaning to start a thread asking about them but keep forgetting.

I started reading BOP after they first appeared, and in the comics Gail has never gone back to explain what their origin is, what what their abilities are or anything like that.

GeorgeG · 10-02-2005, 10:23 AM

They are two great characters. I just don't like, how it seems to me anyway, that the Savant character is being deconstructed recently in the title. He was built up to be this very savvy villain, with high physical and mental attributes, and now he's like any other character. I feel that Dinah coming out as the "victor" in that one-on-one fight was more detrimental to him as a character. I think I had more of a problem of how that whole issue (forget the issue #) played out. It felt like a "yey, girl power issue" more than anything.

**Gail Simone** · 10-02-2005, 04:42 PM

hee.

Gail

**sk716** · 10-02-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gail Simone

I very rarely do this, but I thought I'd talk a little bit about the creation of those two characters.

First, I wanted a villain who could compete with both Oracle and Canary, but I also wanted him to not be some perfect genius type, but rather a flawed and slightly non-functioning guy. The freak with the knife who doesn't know what day it is is a lot scarier to me than the supergenius from planet Kleplock or whatever.

Also, it's funny, but so few supervillains are actually hot guys. Lots of muscle types, but few are model pretty, and I like the friction that brings. Like, say, Dinah, Savant is aware of how he looks, but a bit dismissive of it. It's not really important to him.

First, we were told he couldn't be called Savant because of a pre-existing character, but that eventually went away. Creote was created so that Dinah would have someone to play her mind games on and for Savant to have someone to talk to, rather than have all his dialogue be captions.

Originally, Savant was going to die. This was my first script for DC, I didn't really know the people there, but when I turned the script in, I got this HUGE response from DC peeps saying, "Don't KILL THIS GUY!" They wanted him soundly defeated, but the editors liked the character so much they wanted him to live to be used again.

Which was okay, because I became really fond of him, especially the never-knowing-time foible. And the relationship between Creote and Savant seemed pretty rich for new characters. But remember, I was still very, very new so my judgment, I felt, could simply be that of a newbie a bit too in love with her creations.

But what happened is, from issue two on, Savant and even Creote started getting fan mail. Not just, 'ooh, good villains,' but, 'oooh, I love these characters!' And apparently, that's a bit weird for DC, because they were surprised as well. One month, we got more mail about Savant and Creote than we did about Oracle, Huntress, and Canary combined. I still get mail about them all the time.

Everyone says you can't have real change in mainstream comics, which is just nonsense...it just has to be honest, logical, and organic. We saved Savant so he could be a major Birds villain, but very quickly, it became apparent that he wanted direction, as he had never had any in his life, and he slowly started to see Oracle as a shot at some redemption and meaning in his life.

The problem is always, with background characters, that they can sort of push the main characters out, and as much as I love Brian and Creote, I love the Birds more, so that can't happen. But we've been asked many times to do an all Savant and Creote issue. I don't see that happening any time soon, but Savant DOES have a major plot coming very very soon.

Creote's devotion for Savant is one of my favorite elements of the book, and the fact that Dinah put it all together with just a few clues and some body language showed an important quality of the Canary. If it's not on the net, Oracle can miss a detail like that, but Dinah reads people extremely well.

That's about it! Thanks for the kind words!

Gail

Ha! I'll get my creator commentary one thread at a time if I have to!

Seriously though, I added this to the BoP 56 entry in the Index. Hope you don't mind.

Cam63 · 10-02-2005, 06:13 PM

I'm pleased how the character development is coming along with those two.

At first I thought they'd be just a couple of egotistical tools who justifiably got their arses beaten and then either forgotten or used on rare occasions to get their arses kicked again by the ladies.

I was skeptical when Gail decided to use them as regular allies for the Birds, what with scant time for " water to pass under the bridge " after Dinah was badly injured and kidnapped and their attempted extortion of Babs.

She's pulled it off pretty well, I'm happy to say.

Lester C. · 10-02-2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCJohnson

What's the deal with those two characters anyway? I keep meaning to start a thread asking about them but keep forgetting.

I started reading BOP after they first appeared, and in the comics Gail has never gone back to explain what their origin is, what what their abilities are or anything like that.

If you google Creote and Savant you’ll find a very useful page that answers your questions. The only reason why I’m not creating a link is because that page has scanned artwork from various issues of Birds of Prey which is probably illegal if not just plain immoral. Gail’s first story arc of Birds of Prey is collected in OF Like Mind which features Both Creote and Savant and should still be available at your local comic book retailer shop.

jetfire85 · 10-02-2005, 06:34 PM

As much as I love Savant and Creote, I love Josh even more. I'm shocked that he's still around.

Lester C. · 10-02-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetfire85

As much as I love Savant and Creote, I love Josh even more. I'm shocked that he's still around.

Whenever Josh refers to himself in the third person and goes into a little rant it’s absolutely hilarious. I have noticed however that the character has two flaws though he can’t get past. The first is that he is only good in small doses and the second is that he only works if his banter is working off Huntress.

10-01-2005, 07:55 AM	#1
Lester C. Elder Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 29,468	Creote & Savant I do believe I am the only person at my health club that brings comic books instead of novels while performing a cardio routine. Currently while sweating and being forced to listen to god awful pop music I am rereading each issue of Gail Simone’s definitive Birds of Prey run and one thing has become crystal clear to me. Every moment of this book that has contained Savant and Creote is pure magic. Hell even when the boys aren’t together in the book they still provide classic moments. I want these guys to have an ongoing series but only if it’s written by Gail as I don’t think anyone else can capture the chemistry between Savant and Creote the way she does.

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10-01-2005, 10:30 PM	#2
blackcanary_416 Obdurate Join Date: May 2004 Location: Baltimore Posts: 979	I agree they are cool! I just have a major grudge against them for what they did to my Dinah ::remembers when she kicked the crap out of Savant:: :)

10-02-2005, 04:45 AM	#4
FantomasPR Junior Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 120	I would have preferred the duo to be the girls' main rogues, but I have enjoyed their appearances as part of the Huntress' gang.

10-02-2005, 07:28 AM	#5
Gail Simone Moderator Join Date: May 2004 Location: in the yard Posts: 17,787	I very rarely do this, but I thought I'd talk a little bit about the creation of those two characters. First, I wanted a villain who could compete with both Oracle and Canary, but I also wanted him to not be some perfect genius type, but rather a flawed and slightly non-functioning guy. The freak with the knife who doesn't know what day it is is a lot scarier to me than the supergenius from planet Kleplock or whatever. Also, it's funny, but so few supervillains are actually hot guys. Lots of muscle types, but few are model pretty, and I like the friction that brings. Like, say, Dinah, Savant is aware of how he looks, but a bit dismissive of it. It's not really important to him. First, we were told he couldn't be called Savant because of a pre-existing character, but that eventually went away. Creote was created so that Dinah would have someone to play her mind games on and for Savant to have someone to talk to, rather than have all his dialogue be captions. Originally, Savant was going to die. This was my first script for DC, I didn't really know the people there, but when I turned the script in, I got this HUGE response from DC peeps saying, "Don't KILL THIS GUY!" They wanted him soundly defeated, but the editors liked the character so much they wanted him to live to be used again. Which was okay, because I became really fond of him, especially the never-knowing-time foible. And the relationship between Creote and Savant seemed pretty rich for new characters. But remember, I was still very, very new so my judgment, I felt, could simply be that of a newbie a bit too in love with her creations. But what happened is, from issue two on, Savant and even Creote started getting fan mail. Not just, 'ooh, good villains,' but, 'oooh, I love these characters!' And apparently, that's a bit weird for DC, because they were surprised as well. One month, we got more mail about Savant and Creote than we did about Oracle, Huntress, and Canary combined. I still get mail about them all the time. Everyone says you can't have real change in mainstream comics, which is just nonsense...it just has to be honest, logical, and organic. We saved Savant so he could be a major Birds villain, but very quickly, it became apparent that he wanted direction, as he had never had any in his life, and he slowly started to see Oracle as a shot at some redemption and meaning in his life. The problem is always, with background characters, that they can sort of push the main characters out, and as much as I love Brian and Creote, I love the Birds more, so that can't happen. But we've been asked many times to do an all Savant and Creote issue. I don't see that happening any time soon, but Savant DOES have a major plot coming very very soon. Creote's devotion for Savant is one of my favorite elements of the book, and the fact that Dinah put it all together with just a few clues and some body language showed an important quality of the Canary. If it's not on the net, Oracle can miss a detail like that, but Dinah reads people extremely well. That's about it! Thanks for the kind words! Gail

10-02-2005, 08:43 AM	#6
jwmojo Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 320	A couple of times here on the YABS boards, I've read someone comment that "Gail doesn't like to talk about her writing." And, like you said, I guess it does only happen rarely, but, just the same, I really enjoyed this post. Thanks, Gail!

10-02-2005, 09:02 AM	#8
TCJohnson Elder Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 13,257	What's the deal with those two characters anyway? I keep meaning to start a thread asking about them but keep forgetting. I started reading BOP after they first appeared, and in the comics Gail has never gone back to explain what their origin is, what what their abilities are or anything like that.

10-02-2005, 10:23 AM	#9
GeorgeG Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Conshohocken, PA Posts: 354	They are two great characters. I just don't like, how it seems to me anyway, that the Savant character is being deconstructed recently in the title. He was built up to be this very savvy villain, with high physical and mental attributes, and now he's like any other character. I feel that Dinah coming out as the "victor" in that one-on-one fight was more detrimental to him as a character. I think I had more of a problem of how that whole issue (forget the issue #) played out. It felt like a "yey, girl power issue" more than anything.

10-02-2005, 04:42 PM	#10
Gail Simone Moderator Join Date: May 2004 Location: in the yard Posts: 17,787	hee. Gail

10-02-2005, 06:13 PM	#12
Cam63 Elder Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Oztrailya Posts: 36,459	I'm pleased how the character development is coming along with those two. At first I thought they'd be just a couple of egotistical tools who justifiably got their arses beaten and then either forgotten or used on rare occasions to get their arses kicked again by the ladies. I was skeptical when Gail decided to use them as regular allies for the Birds, what with scant time for " water to pass under the bridge " after Dinah was badly injured and kidnapped and their attempted extortion of Babs. She's pulled it off pretty well, I'm happy to say.

10-02-2005, 06:34 PM	#14
jetfire85 Junior Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 136	As much as I love Savant and Creote, I love Josh even more. I'm shocked that he's still around.