The great wasted opportunity of The Clone Saga

[Darth Vader]

I know that this topic is one of the most heated disagreements, and I've been in a few of those myself.

In my humble opinion, the greatest waste of The Clone Saga was not that it was too long, or that it was too confusing or even that it was, in some cases, poorly written. The biggest tragedy was the waste of the potential of the clone himself.

Many of you will dismiss this idea outright, because it sounds too cliched by the standards of just about any genre. "The evil twin" and all that. I, on the other hand, think such a story is always timeless when it is well-executed and approached with an attitude of depth.

It's been said that the greatest villains are those who are one or two choices away from being a hero. Meaning that the villain is only inches away from doing the right thing, but chose differently.

Of all the characters at Marvel, Spider-Man is about choice. About responsibility.

So what I would have rather seen was something like this:

Ben Reilly is introduced as he was originally, in the shadows. We build up to his first meeting with Peter. Aunt May still dies.

Ben and Peter become friends, despite Mary Jane's unease around Ben. She has a feeling that he's not simply a clone of Peter, that maybe there's something wrong with him. This is a foreshadowing of the truth to come.

Events transpire much faster than they did in the original CS. Seward Trainer is introduced, but we don't have any stories about Ben's life after learning he's the clone.

The Jackal returns, but there aren't any other clones of Peter running around. Just Ben.

It's revealed that Peter is the clone, and Ben is the real deal. Neither Peter nor MJ believe it. Reed Richards and even Doc Strange perform tests. They all point to Peter being the clone. Peter is convinced, and is left reeling.

In the midst of all of this, Peter continues patrolling as Spider-Man. He finds a corpse hanging under the Brooklyn Bridge. It's the body of Eddie Brock.

Reed Richards confirms that is indeed Brock. He also reveals an astonishing fact to Peter: Brock's injuries indicate that he was murdered by someone with abilities and a power level like those of Peter. Pete realizes almost instantly who's responsible. He also realizes what that means for the symbiote.


Peter swings off to confront Ben. Peter doesn't reveal what he suspects just yet, testing Ben to find out more.

Ben eventually confesses that he was attacked by Venom a week ago. The symbiote moved against Ben because he is genetically Peter Parker. Ben tells Pete that he was able to defeat the symbiote only by killing Brock. This confirms for Peter that Ben is more than he seems.

Peter confronts Ben about Brock's death, and Ben becomes enraged. The symbiote flows from Ben's pores, covering him in a red and black version of the Ben Reilly Spider-Man costume, without the webs. The eyes are black instead of white, and there are no webshooters.

Ben reveals the truth to Peter: when he returned to their apartment shortly after the Jackal incident, Ben realized that he was in fact a clone. The shock of this truth was too much, and he left in a rage. Ben took a few belongings with him, and stowed away on a plane leaving LaGuardia, bound for Europe. It's there that Ben established himself as a criminal, first murdering those whose power and wealth he desired. He eventually began to use his great intellect, abilities, and inventiveness to build his own criminal empire, which he operated under the cover of a seemingly benevolent and charitable R&D corporation.

Instead of being one of the manipulated, we learn that Ben was THE manipulator. He was responsible for everything that tortured Peter Parker in the stories preceding the Clone Saga. Everything attributed to Norman Osborn was Ben Reilly's doing, including the "return" of the Parkers and the revelation that Peter was a clone.

Ben's ultimate motive was not so much revenge as it was opportunity. He's not interested in assuming Peter's life, though his plan was to do so to defame and sully Parker's reputation long after Peter is dead and unable to do anything about it.

Spider-Man and Ben, now calling himself Scorn (tentative) enter into their first battle. It's a vicious one, as Peter learns just how deadly the symbiote can really be with a truly twisted and brilliant mind behind it. The battle carries on for hours in the heart of New York City. Captain America and Iron Man enter the fray, but are quickly taken down.

The battle ends in stalemate, though Peter knows he's not seen the last of his "brother," who is essentially Peter Parker after a series of poor choices.

I know this is very basic. There's a lot more left to develop, if I decide to do so for a fanfic. I'd want Ben to be less black vs. Pete's white.

This story would have unraveled over a shorter period, and would have played the emotional high points of the CS much better. We'd feel Pete's doubt over his true identity, but the countless clones and schizophrenic "maybe he is maybe he isn't" aspect of the story would never have developed. More to come on this as I think about it and get some feedback.

Vader

[Darth Vader]

I forgot to mention that one of my goals with this "What If?" is to fix the character of Venom, who was already a mess by the time of the CS. Removing Brock, who I never really felt had sufficient emotional cause to hate Peter, was the first step. I also wanted to put someone with a tremendous intellect, inventiveness, and even cunning inside the symbiote. Who better than Peter Parker himself, but one who finally broke after one too many bad days.

Vader

[Mister Mets]

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

I forgot to mention that one of my goals with this "What If?" is to fix the character of Venom, who was already a mess by the time of the CS. Removing Brock, who I never really felt had sufficient emotional cause to hate Peter, was the first step. I also wanted to put someone with a tremendous intellect, inventiveness, and even cunning inside the symbiote. Who better than Peter Parker himself, but one who finally broke after one too many bad days.

Vader

Offtopic, but i remember reading the letters colum of Amazing Spider-Man #304 (or is it 305, the one which dealt with Issue 298), where one reader thought that the Venom symbiote was in the hands of the clone, and I thought that would've been a cool idea, making Venom truly be the anti-Spider-Man.

[Darth Vader]

^^Which is what I think the character really should have been from the start.

Vader

[Jagernaut]

That is a truely amazing idea. I applaude you.

[Darth Vader]

Originally Posted by Jagernaut

That is a truely amazing idea. I applaude you.

Thanks for the compliment.

Vader

[Alan2099]

Sorry. It's too out there for me. I can't buy into Ben being an evil master manipulator any more than I can buy Kingpin being an aerobics instructor.

[stealthwise]

I can definitely see it the way that you set it up. Alan2099 seems to be missing the point that this wouldn't be using the Ben that was in the Clone Saga, but rather a completely different one that would have evolved from Peter's character into someone far more vengeful and bitter.

I think it's a tremendous idea.

[onizuka]

thats some pretty intersting stuff. i'm a huge Reailly fan and i feel he was wasted enough how he was. atleast with a story like that he coulda gotten some respect.

[Alan2099]

Originally Posted by stealthwise

I can definitely see it the way that you set it up. Alan2099 seems to be missing the point that this wouldn't be using the Ben that was in the Clone Saga, but rather a completely different one that would have evolved from Peter's character into someone far more vengeful and bitter.

I think it's a tremendous idea.

No. I see it perfectly. But you're still going from "Power and Responsibility" to "I just want to destroy everything". It turns another version of Peter Parker into a cruel heartless brutal calculationg manipulator. I think that's too huge a jump for the character. Kaine at least never had a shot at being anything, and he still comes across as more bitter than actually evil.

Plus I just hate how so many people are always going "Eddie Brock sucks! Kill him and give Venom to somebody else!"

[Dark Soul # 7]

It´s an intresting idea but just explain one thing to me. Who was the clone now again?
Oh and anybody beating Iron man but having to settle for stalemate with Spider-man is not gonna happen unless we bring in PIS.

[pmpknface]

Not bad... not bad...

Certainly better than what ended up being published. I think the low point was killing Doc Ock. That was just reprehensible....

[MrPalen]

While I appreciate creativity and the thought you've put into this... Meh.

I don't like it for a few reasons:

- The "evil twin" thing actually is cheesey. The cold-blooded murderer/ruthless corporate mastermind is not an image that is believable when applied to Peter Parker.

- What made Ben Reilly an interesting character, and not just a cheesey evil twin, was that he was very likeable. His pain being a man without a place was endearing and made the reader sympathetic to him (being forced to wait on the roof and cry alone as Aunt May died for example). We could imagine that this is who Peter Parker would be if put in this circumstance.

- The Venom angle seems pretty dumb to be honest. Venom was a terrific villain early on, though later overexposed and heroized. He scared the hell out of Peter and for good reason. He could beat the shit out of him. Spider-Man needed sonic guns or the Human Torch or church bells to have any hope of surviving. Keep in mind that Eddie Brock alone had no superpowers. Everything came from the symbiote. You want me to believe that a) Ben could kill Venom (okay, maybe the symbiote abandons him). but far more ridiculously b) that same symbiote now attached to a clone of Spider-Man (who unlike Eddie Brock has all the superpowers of... Spider-Man) can only fight Peter to a standstill?! Forget it.


The clone saga had its problems, but I'm sorry this is a pretty weak idea.

[Darth Vader]

Originally Posted by MrPalen

While I appreciate creativity and the thought you've put into this... Meh..

I don't like it for a few reasons:

- The "evil twin" thing actually is cheesey. The cold-blooded murderer/ruthless corporate mastermind is not an image that is believable when applied to Peter Parker..

That's one of the appealing aspects of the idea. Do something new. Show us something that ISN'T necessarily believable when applied to Peter Parker. Ben was still just a clone of Peter with different hair and a few years of travelling and sorrow. How about making the clone someone radically different? That's the whole point.

Originally Posted by MrPalen

- What made Ben Reilly an interesting character, and not just a cheesey evil twin, was that he was very likeable. His pain being a man without a place was endearing and made the reader sympathetic to him (being forced to wait on the roof and cry alone as Aunt May died for example). We could imagine that this is who Peter Parker would be if put in this circumstance...

I disagree. Ben was just another Peter Parker whose life was different by a matter of only a few years in comic time. I could buy it if Ben had been different from birth, but this wasn't the case. One of the main problems of the Clone Saga you seem to embrace is that Marvel editorial seemed hellbent on wiping the slate clean instead of simply working with the original Spider-Man instead. See here for a better idea of what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by MrPalen

- The Venom angle seems pretty dumb to be honest. Venom was a terrific villain early on, though later overexposed and heroized. He scared the hell out of Peter and for good reason. He could beat the shit out of him. Spider-Man needed sonic guns or the Human Torch or church bells to have any hope of surviving. Keep in mind that Eddie Brock alone had no superpowers. Everything came from the symbiote. You want me to believe that a) Ben could kill Venom (okay, maybe the symbiote abandons him). but far more ridiculously b) that same symbiote now attached to a clone of Spider-Man (who unlike Eddie Brock has all the superpowers of... Spider-Man) can only fight Peter to a standstill?! Forget it...

Had you actually read my post instead of only focusing on those parts that help to prove your point, you'd realize that A) I acknowledge that Venom was a good villain to begin with, but had lost his way creatively and B) that some of the details of this concept are still being worked out. This is only a rough sketch. I realize that Ben would probably beat Peter within an inch of his life.And you only seem to agree that Venom was a damaged character. How about a recommendation for improvement? The character's constant "today I'm good, tomorrow, I'll eat Spider-Man's brain!" was irreparable damage by this point in continuity. Joining the symbiote (a good idea) to someone with a brilliant if twisted mind is a great way of revitalizing the concept.

Originally Posted by MrPalen

The clone saga had its problems, but I'm sorry this is a pretty weak idea.

As I said, this idea is still in the early stages. I appreciate your input, but since you don't seem to offer any better ideas, how about ratcheting back the attitude and deconstructive criticism?

Vader

[MrPalen]

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

One of the main problems of the Clone Saga you seem to embrace is that Marvel editorial seemed hellbent on wiping the slate clean instead of simply working with the original Spider-Man instead. See here for a better idea of what I'm saying.

I read that whole thing the other day, it was fascinating - thanks for the link anyway :) (if anyone else hasn't read "Life of Reilly" it's a very in-depth issue by issue synopsis of the Clone Saga, with commentary from an editor who was involved in the process). Anyway, all I said was that I liked the Ben Reilly character and I don't think I'm alone in that. That doesn't mean I wanted him to permanently replace Peter (not that I really see how that's relevant to this discussion even if I did), or that I liked a lot of the editorial craziness that was going on behind the scenes.

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

Had you actually read my post instead of only focusing on those parts that help to prove your point, you'd realize that A) I acknowledge that Venom was a good villain to begin with, but had lost his way creatively and B) that some of the details of this concept are still being worked out. This is only a rough sketch.

I did read your post. I don't happen to have any enthusiasm for it that's all.

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

I realize that Ben would probably beat Peter within an inch of his life.And you only seem to agree that Venom was a damaged character. How about a recommendation for improvement? The character's constant "today I'm good, tomorrow, I'll eat Spider-Man's brain!" was irreparable damage by this point in continuity.

Well, my feeling is that while Venom was a very cool character his nature makes him have a short shelf-life. What I mean by that is that he was so threatening that his early stories were very strong, and he really did scare Peter. You can't really keep bringing him back and not lose the impact. Carnage is kind of the same deal - he was so deadly, but each time he comes back he becomes less and less interesting or frightening. I think we agree on this, but I'd prefer Venom to just stay gone rather than have the symbiote go to somebody else (and I realize that's been done recently).

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

As I said, this idea is still in the early stages. I appreciate your input, but since you don't seem to offer any better ideas, how about ratcheting back the attitude and deconstructive criticism?

I wasn't offering input, I was just recording my reaction to it. That reaction was negative. Others liked it and posted such things as "Wow too bad they didn't do this" or whatever. I think if you're enthusiastic about the idea, then you know that's great and by all means write some fanfic. I'm sure some people will dig it. I might dig it. But put forward as "the great wasted opportunity of The Clone Saga", sorry no. I'm not with you on that. I don't think it would be a good idea for an in-continuity story or event. As a What If?-type thing it could be fun.