Comic Book Resources

**Captain Jim** · 02-02-2009, 08:03 PM

If there’s one thing that’s pretty clear, it’s that continuity surrounding the Batman family books has been pretty convoluted lately (particularly since Batman RIP). Being somewhat of a continuity geek, I’m going to attempt a resolution. Persons who have no interest in this sort of thing (“just read the stories and don’t worry about how they fit together”) should probably skip this thread.

One of the greatest challenges in regard to “continuity” are the supposed “RIP” tie-in titles. In some cases, it’s pretty clear where these stories fit; in other cases, not so much. Let’s look at them one by one (in my suggested order of sequence).

“Heart of Hush” (Detective #646-650) is one of the easier storylines to place. It has been stated several times by various persons at DC that these books take place before RIP. In truth, they really have nothing to do with RIP (other than a few throwaway references to Jezebel Jet and the Black Glove). Labeling these issues as RIP tie-in’s was somewhat less than honest.

As to the precise placement of the story in the context of Grant Morrison’s ongoing tale in Batman, I’m not going to be dogmatic (and I really don’t think it overly matters). For convenience sake, I’m going to place it AFTER the Ras Al Ghul crossover and before Batman #672. (IMO, #672-675 are a prelude to RIP and pretty much lead directly into it.) However, I’m not willing to fight with someone who wishes to place them somewhere else before RIP.

“Scattered Pieces/ Gathered Pieces” (Robin #175-176) is another story that’s easy to place. These issues take place midway through RIP, specifically, between Batman #678 & 679. We can say this with certainty because, at the end of #176, it says, “Robin’s story continues in Batman #679.” Nuff said.

This is where things start to get tricky and we have to rely on internal evidence within the storylines themselves to place them the best we can.

**Captain Jim** · 02-02-2009, 08:04 PM

“The Great Leap” (Nightwing #147-151) is a bit of a challenge. Near the beginning of #147, when Dick asks Two-Face why he didn’t go to Batman for help (instead of to him), he replies, “I wouldn’t consider a guy running around in a technicolor dreamcoat very open-minded.” This is almost certainly a reference to Batman’s Zur-en-Arrh costume, which Bruce first donned at the end of Batman #678, and continued to wear through #680.

In Nightwing #148, a badly wounded Dick Grayson makes his way to the batcave, where his wounds are tended to by Alfred. In the course of his treatment, Dick says, “He’s really gone this time, isn’t he, Alfred?” Alfred replied, “Yes, I fear that he is.” Later in the issue, Two-Face says to Dick, “I hear this Black Glove character did things I could’ve only dreamed of. And by the way, how was your little stay in Arkham?” The latter comment is obviously a reference to Nightwing’s capture and imprisonment within Arkham, as shown in Batman #678. He doesn’t escape until #681.

Nightwing #151 is an epilogue to “The Great Leap,” and is technically labeled as a “Last Rites” story, as opposed to a “RIP” tie-in. But as most will agree, both of these terms are relatively meaningless. In this issue, Two-Face once again alludes to Dick’s aforementioned stay in Arkham. “”You may be able to still hear your own screams bouncing off the walls from your short stay here recently.”

“Last Days of Gotham” (Detective #851 & Batman #684) is primarily a Nightwing tale, and it takes place after the aforementioned “Great Leap” story. (It’s labeled “Last Rites.”) We know it takes place after “The Great Leap” because Dick tells Alfred, “Seems my new sparring partner Two-Face is up to the same old tricks.” This is a clear reference to the other storyline. We are also told that Tim is “still busy with the Gotham gang wars,” a reference to the “Search for a Hero” storyline (see below). In a conversation with Oracle, Dick refers to Batman having “disappeared.” Bullock asks Gordon, “Ya think he’s ever comin’ back?”

“Search for a Hero” (Robin #177-182) isn’t labeled either “RIP” or “Last Rites,” but it clearly takes place after the end of RIP. On numerous occasions, Tim refers to Batman as being “gone” and in at least one instance he says Batman “disappeared.” On two separate occasions, we’re told that this arc takes place at the same time that Dick is fighting Two-Face.

**Captain Jim** · 02-02-2009, 08:05 PM

“Outsiders No More” (BATO #11-12) is a “RIP” tie-in and possibly the most direct one of all. It takes place after the end of RIP and shows the reactions from many of Batman’s friends. Superman rushes to Wayne Manor seeking Bruce and finds Green Arrow instead, drinking Bruce’s expensive alcohol.

Oliver says, “I’m coming to the realization that our friend is gone. As in skedaddled. As in got the hell out of Dodge. As in lights out, the party’s over.” Superman says, “Look, we both know he’d never admit it, but maybe this Black Glove incident took its toll on Bruce. Maybe he decided he needed a break... I mean, it’s not like he hasn’t disappeared before.” Ollie says, “Not like this, Clark,” and shows him the batcave in ruins.

We also see the scene at Arkham, where the Joker has informed the rest of the inmates that Batman is missing, following the events of RIP. And we see Black Lightning, talking to his daughter, Thunder. She says, “So the JLA has just about as much as we do?” To which Jefferson replies, “Right, which is nothing. Though I’m starting to get the feeling there’s a reason for that. We all know the man won’t be found unless he wants to be.”

There are numerous references to the Black Hand in this story. And, in fact, the Outsiders fall into a trap which had been set for them by the Black Hand earlier. Robin tells Batgirl that he’s busy with the Gotham gang war, indicating that this story takes place at roughly the same time as both “Search for a Hero” and “Last Days of Gotham.”

“The Network” & “A Family Affair” (BATO #13-14) are Batgirl stories that follow-up on the storyline in #11-12. (Curiously, #13 sports a “RIP” label, but #14 does not.) In these issues, Batgirl attempts to recruit a new Outsiders team, to replace the group that resigned en mass in #12. In the second issue, Alfred says, “We must accept that he (Bruce) is not coming back...” This issue also contains several pages which appear to tease the upcoming Azrael mini.

**Captain Jim** · 02-02-2009, 08:07 PM

Taken at face value, the natural interpretation of all of the above is that (consistent with the ending of Batman #681) Batman went missing at the end of RIP and remained missing for a period of time before FC. And, in fact, that was how everyone was interpreting it prior to the release of Batman #683. But this issue caused many readers to arrive at a different conclusion.

There are four panels in #683 which seem to imply that Batman returned to the batcave immediately after the end of RIP and quickly left to join the JLA at the beginning of FC. If true, this means that the stories in the supporting titles must happen subsequent to Batman’s “death” in FC #6.

There’s only one problem with this view – it doesn’t seem to fit with the stories in Nightwing and Robin (which allude to a “missing” Batman who’s actual fate is unknown) and totally contradicts BATO. How did we arrive at such a conundrum? A couple of quotes from Grant Morrison may shed some light.

In a recent Newsarama interview, Morrison said, “Batman R.I.P. was planned from the start of my Batman run as the culmination of the ‘Batman vs. the Ultimate Diabolical Mastermind’ story I had in mind and it was always intended to wrap up just as you read it, before leading into the next chapter of my Batman run and the final twists and turns of this attempt to tell a ‘definitive’ long-form Batman adventure.

“When Dan (Didio) heard the R.I.P. title he asked me if it could lead us into the ‘death of Batman’ which he’d planned to occur in Final Crisis, so I made sure the Batman title and Final Crisis reached this particular endpoint at the same time and created a bridge between the two books.”

Also, when asked by IGN several months ago how the RIP tie-in’s would connect with the main storyline, Morrison responded, “I have no idea. This is the same story I've been telling for the last two years, and this just happens to be the last part of it. But people really responded to it, and the sales on the Batman titles went through the roof with the first issue of RIP. So quite clearly DC took one look at that and said let's put some branding on the other Bat titles.”

**Captain Jim** · 02-02-2009, 08:09 PM

Some interesting facts emerge from these comments. While RIP ended exactly as Morrison always intended it to, with Batman’s fate up in the air, the ‘death of Batman’ sub-plot in FC was Didio’s idea. The “Last Rites” storyline (#682-683) was then added in an attempt to connect the two. In addition, it doesn’t appear that Morrison had any input into, or detailed knowledge of, the content of the tie-in stories.

Taken together, these facts suggest to me that we have a genuine contradiction here. The RIP tie-ins’s appear to be written with the understanding that Batman disappeared for a period of time at the end of RIP (which seems to have been DC’s original intention). Morrison is not involved with these and has no knowledge of their specific content.

On the other hand, Morrison had been given the responsibility of showing some connection between RIP and Batman’s involvement in the events of FC. So Morrison included those four panels in his FC tie-in issues, unaware that they directly contradicted what had been presented in the tie-in’s. The only one who should have been aware of the problem was bat-editor Mike Marts. But if the difficulty occurred to him, he obviously chose to ignore it.

So, where does that leave us? Well, you have a choice. 1) You can simply accept the fact that there’s a contradiction and leave it at that (though that’s not likely to satisfy the true continuity geek). 2) You can decide that Morrison’s work is all that matters and forget about the other titles. (Technically, you could put the Robin & Nightwing stories post-FC, even though they don’t fit there all that comfortably. On the other hand, you’d have to totally write off the BATO stories.) 3) You could re-interpret the four panels in #683 to be showing Batman’s return after a long absence rather than immediately after the end of #681. 4) You could reinterpret the four panels as being one of the inaccurate, altered memories that Batman was experiencing. As for me, I’ll probably go for one of the latter two.

**Captain Jim** · 02-02-2009, 08:10 PM

That brings us to Batman’s involvement in FC itself. Fortunately, there’s not much confusion here. To follow Batman’s participation in this event you should read the following, in this sequence: JLA #21, FC #1, Requiem #1, FC #2, Batman #682-683, FC #6-7.

Also, as I have written in another thread, I believe the “Reconstruction/ Catspaw” storyline featuring Hush and Catwoman (Detective #852 & Batman #685) takes place between FC #2 (where Batman is captured) and FC #3 (where Catwoman is transformed into a fury).

Again, this is based largely on internal evidence from Batman #685. Hush asks Selina, “What happened to Bruce? I heard he was a target of the Black Glove.” She responds, “I was still in the hospital while that happened (i.e., during RIP). I heard he survived (likely from Dick and Tim, who show up later in the issue), but after that...” Hush interrupts and says, “So, Bruce is dead, huh?” To which she responds, “M.I.A.”

Batman is literally shown to be “M.I.A.” in FC #4, as a result of his capture in #2. Since she said he was M.I.A., and not “fried by Darkseid,” I think this is the best placement. (Note: one has to assume that the artistic rendering of the captive Batman in the Evil Factory is for the readers’ benefit only. Selina and Hush are obviously not seeing this image.)

That leaves us only (at the moment) with Nightwing #151, the first place that Batman is specifically referred to as dead (“my dead father’s closet”). Though I suspect that Nightwing #152 and Robin #183, to be released later this month, will do the same.

jgiannantoni05 · 02-03-2009, 01:17 AM

Great job Jim. I share your continuity geekyness.

pressdarlings · 02-03-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

If there’s one thing that’s pretty clear, it’s that continuity surrounding the Batman family books has been pretty convoluted lately (particularly since Batman RIP). Being somewhat of a continuity geek, I’m going to attempt a resolution. Persons who have no interest in this sort of thing (“just read the stories and don’t worry about how they fit together”) should probably skip this thread.

One of the greatest challenges in regard to “continuity” are the supposed “RIP” tie-in titles. In some cases, it’s pretty clear where these stories fit; in other cases, not so much. Let’s look at them one by one (in my suggested order of sequence).

“Heart of Hush” (Detective #646-650) is one of the easier storylines to place. It has been stated several times by various persons at DC that these books take place before RIP. In truth, they really have nothing to do with RIP (other than a few throwaway references to Jezebel Jet and the Black Glove). Labeling these issues as RIP tie-in’s was somewhat less than honest.

As to the precise placement of the story in the context of Grant Morrison’s ongoing tale in Batman, I’m not going to be dogmatic (and I really don’t think it overly matters). For convenience sake, I’m going to place it AFTER the Ras Al Ghul crossover and before Batman #672. (IMO, #672-675 are a prelude to RIP and pretty much lead directly into it.) However, I’m not willing to fight with someone who wishes to place them somewhere else before RIP.

“Scattered Pieces/ Gathered Pieces” (Robin #175-176) is another story that’s easy to place. These issues take place midway through RIP, specifically, between Batman #678 & 679. We can say this with certainty because, at the end of #176, it says, “Robin’s story continues in Batman #679.” Nuff said.

This is where things start to get tricky and we have to rely on internal evidence within the storylines themselves to place them the best we can.

I don't wanna sway off topic here but in what order do all of the Dini/Morrison trades go?

Vidocq · 02-03-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pressdarlings

I don't wanna sway off topic here but in what order do all of the Dini/Morrison trades go?

Detective is before Morrison's run.
Death and the City is after Batman 663 with the exeption of the last Story ''Trust'', which is set before Batman 655.

Casebook is set just before Jezebell and Bruce started went exclusive (When she ''figured'' out that Bruce is Batman can't remember the issue number) and Last story taking place just a few days before Heart of Hush which is set a couple of Days before RIP.

I'm not a continuity geek myself but I think that is pretty solid.

**Captain Jim** · 02-06-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

DiDio addressed confusion behind how Final Crisis and Batman R.I.P., both written by Grant Morrison, flow.

"We're going to make sense of this," said DiDio. "Just for you."

DiDio pointed to the projector, saying that story started with the first issues of "R.I.P.," going to Final Crisis #1, and then the last issue of "R.I.P.," Batman #681, then moving to Final Crisis #3.

After that falls the "Last Rites" story (Batman #682-683), and then Final Crisis #6.

The next part after that, somewhat logically, was Final Crisis #7.

"When you put it like that, it still doesn't make sense," joked Rucka.

I think I agree with Rucka.

Is he implying that FC #1 falls in between Batman #680 & 681? There's no way. Bruce is captured at the end of #680. For that matter, the only place I could even conceivably see an opportunity for Bruce to leave and join the JLA during RIP would be sometime during #676 or 677. After that, no way.

And Batman isn't even in FC #3. Does he mean #2? And the rest is pretty much what I said above.

But this isn't where the bulk of the confusion is; you'll notice he didn't mention any of the tie-in stories.

**Captain Jim** · 02-06-2009, 08:22 PM

Okay, here's a slightly different version of the panel from CBR:

Quote:

DiDio declared he would make sense of everything using an animated PowerPoint diagram. It was explained thusly:

We start with the first issue of "RIP," then we move to "Final Crisis" #1, which had cave drawings on the cover.Then we go to the conclusion of "Batman RIP," where Batman jumped on a helicopter and "the damn thing blew up." Next, in "Final Crisis" #3, something happens, and then Batman is trapped in Darkseid's machines. Then Batman figures out he's being manipulated and breaks free of the mind control. Then in "Final Crisis" #6, Batman shoots Darkseid and Darkseid hits Batman with the Omega Effect. And then in "Final Crisis" #7, we see a shadow of a bat drawing on a cave. From there we go back to... a picture of Grant Morrison's head.

"Did that explain it for everybody?" DiDio asked.

"NO!" yelled the crowd.

According to CBR, he said first issue of RIP, not first issues. So evidently that means you go from Batman #676 to FC #1. Okay, that will work. So, given this new information I'll make this change in order of events:

Batman #676, JLA #21, FC #1, Batman #677-678, Robin #175-176, Batman #679-681, Requiem #1, FC #2, Batman #682-683, FC #6-7.

AlistairCrane · 02-07-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Okay, here's a slightly different version of the panel from CBR:

According to CBR, he said first issue of RIP, not first issues. So evidently that means you go from Batman #676 to FC #1. Okay, that will work. So, given this new information I'll make this change in order of events:

Batman #676, JLA #21, FC #1, Batman #677-678, Robin #175-176, Batman #679-681, Requiem #1, FC #2, Batman #682-683, FC #6-7.

DiDio's explanation makes no sense, at least not in this article. Also, I can't tell if he's being sarcastic or what. I won't be amending my list because it works just as well the way I already have it.

**Captain Jim** · 02-08-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlistairCrane

DiDio's explanation makes no sense, at least not in this article. Also, I can't tell if he's being sarcastic or what. I won't be amending my list because it works just as well the way I already have it.

Well, I think what he mentioned makes sense, even if it's not exactly how I envisioned it. (Though it may not work in your more detailed time frame.) However, I think it still leaves a lot of questions open, particularly as it relates to some of the issues he didn't mention.

Choppa · 02-09-2009, 11:21 AM

Okay resolve this one for me. During "Broken City" (Batman 620-625) Bruce tells a copy that he enjoys cooking steaks in order to let off steam. But then in "RIP" (Batman 676-681) he tells Alfred that if he smells smoke from the kitchen it's because he's trying to cook a steak for Jezebel.

Why would he not know how to do that if he already admitted to cooking steaks regularly?

nepenthes · 02-09-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Choppa

Okay resolve this one for me. During "Broken City" (Batman 620-625) Bruce tells a copy that he enjoys cooking steaks in order to let off steam. But then in "RIP" (Batman 676-681) he tells Alfred that if he smells smoke from the kitchen it's because he's trying to cook a steak for Jezebel.

Why would he not know how to do that if he already admitted to cooking steaks regularly?

because he can't cook steaks properly. In Broken City it's too rare, blood gushes out and he looks horrified. It's like the only thing Batman can't do

02-02-2009, 08:09 PM	#5
Captain Jim Gotham Guardian Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: northeastern Ohio Posts: 9,370	Some interesting facts emerge from these comments. While RIP ended exactly as Morrison always intended it to, with Batman’s fate up in the air, the ‘death of Batman’ sub-plot in FC was Didio’s idea. The “Last Rites” storyline (#682-683) was then added in an attempt to connect the two. In addition, it doesn’t appear that Morrison had any input into, or detailed knowledge of, the content of the tie-in stories. Taken together, these facts suggest to me that we have a genuine contradiction here. The RIP tie-ins’s appear to be written with the understanding that Batman disappeared for a period of time at the end of RIP (which seems to have been DC’s original intention). Morrison is not involved with these and has no knowledge of their specific content. On the other hand, Morrison had been given the responsibility of showing some connection between RIP and Batman’s involvement in the events of FC. So Morrison included those four panels in his FC tie-in issues, unaware that they directly contradicted what had been presented in the tie-in’s. The only one who should have been aware of the problem was bat-editor Mike Marts. But if the difficulty occurred to him, he obviously chose to ignore it. So, where does that leave us? Well, you have a choice. 1) You can simply accept the fact that there’s a contradiction and leave it at that (though that’s not likely to satisfy the true continuity geek). 2) You can decide that Morrison’s work is all that matters and forget about the other titles. (Technically, you could put the Robin & Nightwing stories post-FC, even though they don’t fit there all that comfortably. On the other hand, you’d have to totally write off the BATO stories.) 3) You could re-interpret the four panels in #683 to be showing Batman’s return after a long absence rather than immediately after the end of #681. 4) You could reinterpret the four panels as being one of the inaccurate, altered memories that Batman was experiencing. As for me, I’ll probably go for one of the latter two. __________________ Jim Zimmerman moderator, CBR Batman forum (1999 to 2002 and 2007 to present) co-moderator emeritus, CBR DC Universe forum (2005 to 2007) moderator emeritus, CBR CrossGen forum (2002 to 2004)

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02-02-2009, 08:03 PM	#1
Captain Jim Gotham Guardian Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: northeastern Ohio Posts: 9,370	An attempt at continuity resolution (long) If there’s one thing that’s pretty clear, it’s that continuity surrounding the Batman family books has been pretty convoluted lately (particularly since Batman RIP). Being somewhat of a continuity geek, I’m going to attempt a resolution. Persons who have no interest in this sort of thing (“just read the stories and don’t worry about how they fit together”) should probably skip this thread. One of the greatest challenges in regard to “continuity” are the supposed “RIP” tie-in titles. In some cases, it’s pretty clear where these stories fit; in other cases, not so much. Let’s look at them one by one (in my suggested order of sequence). “Heart of Hush” (Detective #646-650) is one of the easier storylines to place. It has been stated several times by various persons at DC that these books take place before RIP. In truth, they really have nothing to do with RIP (other than a few throwaway references to Jezebel Jet and the Black Glove). Labeling these issues as RIP tie-in’s was somewhat less than honest. As to the precise placement of the story in the context of Grant Morrison’s ongoing tale in Batman, I’m not going to be dogmatic (and I really don’t think it overly matters). For convenience sake, I’m going to place it AFTER the Ras Al Ghul crossover and before Batman #672. (IMO, #672-675 are a prelude to RIP and pretty much lead directly into it.) However, I’m not willing to fight with someone who wishes to place them somewhere else before RIP. “Scattered Pieces/ Gathered Pieces” (Robin #175-176) is another story that’s easy to place. These issues take place midway through RIP, specifically, between Batman #678 & 679. We can say this with certainty because, at the end of #176, it says, “Robin’s story continues in Batman #679.” Nuff said. This is where things start to get tricky and we have to rely on internal evidence within the storylines themselves to place them the best we can. __________________ Jim Zimmerman moderator, CBR Batman forum (1999 to 2002 and 2007 to present) co-moderator emeritus, CBR DC Universe forum (2005 to 2007) moderator emeritus, CBR CrossGen forum (2002 to 2004)

02-02-2009, 08:04 PM	#2
Captain Jim Gotham Guardian Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: northeastern Ohio Posts: 9,370	“The Great Leap” (Nightwing #147-151) is a bit of a challenge. Near the beginning of #147, when Dick asks Two-Face why he didn’t go to Batman for help (instead of to him), he replies, “I wouldn’t consider a guy running around in a technicolor dreamcoat very open-minded.” This is almost certainly a reference to Batman’s Zur-en-Arrh costume, which Bruce first donned at the end of Batman #678, and continued to wear through #680. In Nightwing #148, a badly wounded Dick Grayson makes his way to the batcave, where his wounds are tended to by Alfred. In the course of his treatment, Dick says, “He’s really gone this time, isn’t he, Alfred?” Alfred replied, “Yes, I fear that he is.” Later in the issue, Two-Face says to Dick, “I hear this Black Glove character did things I could’ve only dreamed of. And by the way, how was your little stay in Arkham?” The latter comment is obviously a reference to Nightwing’s capture and imprisonment within Arkham, as shown in Batman #678. He doesn’t escape until #681. Nightwing #151 is an epilogue to “The Great Leap,” and is technically labeled as a “Last Rites” story, as opposed to a “RIP” tie-in. But as most will agree, both of these terms are relatively meaningless. In this issue, Two-Face once again alludes to Dick’s aforementioned stay in Arkham. “”You may be able to still hear your own screams bouncing off the walls from your short stay here recently.” “Last Days of Gotham” (Detective #851 & Batman #684) is primarily a Nightwing tale, and it takes place after the aforementioned “Great Leap” story. (It’s labeled “Last Rites.”) We know it takes place after “The Great Leap” because Dick tells Alfred, “Seems my new sparring partner Two-Face is up to the same old tricks.” This is a clear reference to the other storyline. We are also told that Tim is “still busy with the Gotham gang wars,” a reference to the “Search for a Hero” storyline (see below). In a conversation with Oracle, Dick refers to Batman having “disappeared.” Bullock asks Gordon, “Ya think he’s ever comin’ back?” “Search for a Hero” (Robin #177-182) isn’t labeled either “RIP” or “Last Rites,” but it clearly takes place after the end of RIP. On numerous occasions, Tim refers to Batman as being “gone” and in at least one instance he says Batman “disappeared.” On two separate occasions, we’re told that this arc takes place at the same time that Dick is fighting Two-Face. __________________ Jim Zimmerman moderator, CBR Batman forum (1999 to 2002 and 2007 to present) co-moderator emeritus, CBR DC Universe forum (2005 to 2007) moderator emeritus, CBR CrossGen forum (2002 to 2004)

02-02-2009, 08:05 PM	#3
Captain Jim Gotham Guardian Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: northeastern Ohio Posts: 9,370	“Outsiders No More” (BATO #11-12) is a “RIP” tie-in and possibly the most direct one of all. It takes place after the end of RIP and shows the reactions from many of Batman’s friends. Superman rushes to Wayne Manor seeking Bruce and finds Green Arrow instead, drinking Bruce’s expensive alcohol. Oliver says, “I’m coming to the realization that our friend is gone. As in skedaddled. As in got the hell out of Dodge. As in lights out, the party’s over.” Superman says, “Look, we both know he’d never admit it, but maybe this Black Glove incident took its toll on Bruce. Maybe he decided he needed a break... I mean, it’s not like he hasn’t disappeared before.” Ollie says, “Not like this, Clark,” and shows him the batcave in ruins. We also see the scene at Arkham, where the Joker has informed the rest of the inmates that Batman is missing, following the events of RIP. And we see Black Lightning, talking to his daughter, Thunder. She says, “So the JLA has just about as much as we do?” To which Jefferson replies, “Right, which is nothing. Though I’m starting to get the feeling there’s a reason for that. We all know the man won’t be found unless he wants to be.” There are numerous references to the Black Hand in this story. And, in fact, the Outsiders fall into a trap which had been set for them by the Black Hand earlier. Robin tells Batgirl that he’s busy with the Gotham gang war, indicating that this story takes place at roughly the same time as both “Search for a Hero” and “Last Days of Gotham.” “The Network” & “A Family Affair” (BATO #13-14) are Batgirl stories that follow-up on the storyline in #11-12. (Curiously, #13 sports a “RIP” label, but #14 does not.) In these issues, Batgirl attempts to recruit a new Outsiders team, to replace the group that resigned en mass in #12. In the second issue, Alfred says, “We must accept that he (Bruce) is not coming back...” This issue also contains several pages which appear to tease the upcoming Azrael mini. __________________ Jim Zimmerman moderator, CBR Batman forum (1999 to 2002 and 2007 to present) co-moderator emeritus, CBR DC Universe forum (2005 to 2007) moderator emeritus, CBR CrossGen forum (2002 to 2004)

02-02-2009, 08:07 PM	#4
Captain Jim Gotham Guardian Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: northeastern Ohio Posts: 9,370	Taken at face value, the natural interpretation of all of the above is that (consistent with the ending of Batman #681) Batman went missing at the end of RIP and remained missing for a period of time before FC. And, in fact, that was how everyone was interpreting it prior to the release of Batman #683. But this issue caused many readers to arrive at a different conclusion. There are four panels in #683 which seem to imply that Batman returned to the batcave immediately after the end of RIP and quickly left to join the JLA at the beginning of FC. If true, this means that the stories in the supporting titles must happen subsequent to Batman’s “death” in FC #6. There’s only one problem with this view – it doesn’t seem to fit with the stories in Nightwing and Robin (which allude to a “missing” Batman who’s actual fate is unknown) and totally contradicts BATO. How did we arrive at such a conundrum? A couple of quotes from Grant Morrison may shed some light. In a recent Newsarama interview, Morrison said, “Batman R.I.P. was planned from the start of my Batman run as the culmination of the ‘Batman vs. the Ultimate Diabolical Mastermind’ story I had in mind and it was always intended to wrap up just as you read it, before leading into the next chapter of my Batman run and the final twists and turns of this attempt to tell a ‘definitive’ long-form Batman adventure. “When Dan (Didio) heard the R.I.P. title he asked me if it could lead us into the ‘death of Batman’ which he’d planned to occur in Final Crisis, so I made sure the Batman title and Final Crisis reached this particular endpoint at the same time and created a bridge between the two books.” Also, when asked by IGN several months ago how the RIP tie-in’s would connect with the main storyline, Morrison responded, “I have no idea. This is the same story I've been telling for the last two years, and this just happens to be the last part of it. But people really responded to it, and the sales on the Batman titles went through the roof with the first issue of RIP. So quite clearly DC took one look at that and said let's put some branding on the other Bat titles.” __________________ Jim Zimmerman moderator, CBR Batman forum (1999 to 2002 and 2007 to present) co-moderator emeritus, CBR DC Universe forum (2005 to 2007) moderator emeritus, CBR CrossGen forum (2002 to 2004)

02-02-2009, 08:10 PM	#6
Captain Jim Gotham Guardian Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: northeastern Ohio Posts: 9,370	That brings us to Batman’s involvement in FC itself. Fortunately, there’s not much confusion here. To follow Batman’s participation in this event you should read the following, in this sequence: JLA #21, FC #1, Requiem #1, FC #2, Batman #682-683, FC #6-7. Also, as I have written in another thread, I believe the “Reconstruction/ Catspaw” storyline featuring Hush and Catwoman (Detective #852 & Batman #685) takes place between FC #2 (where Batman is captured) and FC #3 (where Catwoman is transformed into a fury). Again, this is based largely on internal evidence from Batman #685. Hush asks Selina, “What happened to Bruce? I heard he was a target of the Black Glove.” She responds, “I was still in the hospital while that happened (i.e., during RIP). I heard he survived (likely from Dick and Tim, who show up later in the issue), but after that...” Hush interrupts and says, “So, Bruce is dead, huh?” To which she responds, “M.I.A.” Batman is literally shown to be “M.I.A.” in FC #4, as a result of his capture in #2. Since she said he was M.I.A., and not “fried by Darkseid,” I think this is the best placement. (Note: one has to assume that the artistic rendering of the captive Batman in the Evil Factory is for the readers’ benefit only. Selina and Hush are obviously not seeing this image.) That leaves us only (at the moment) with Nightwing #151, the first place that Batman is specifically referred to as dead (“my dead father’s closet”). Though I suspect that Nightwing #152 and Robin #183, to be released later this month, will do the same. __________________ Jim Zimmerman moderator, CBR Batman forum (1999 to 2002 and 2007 to present) co-moderator emeritus, CBR DC Universe forum (2005 to 2007) moderator emeritus, CBR CrossGen forum (2002 to 2004)

02-03-2009, 01:17 AM	#7
jgiannantoni05 Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 847	Great job Jim. I share your continuity geekyness. __________________ Lex Luthor: Think about it, Clark. My intellect, your powers. Together we could rule this world. We'll walk as gods among men. Clark Kent: You're not a god. I'm not even sure you're human. Lex Luthor: Are you? Lex Luthor: I want you to remember this day, Clark. I want you to remember that despite all your amazing powers, there was one man that beat you. Maybe this was always our destiny. How sad.

02-09-2009, 11:21 AM	#14
Choppa Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,733	Okay resolve this one for me. During "Broken City" (Batman 620-625) Bruce tells a copy that he enjoys cooking steaks in order to let off steam. But then in "RIP" (Batman 676-681) he tells Alfred that if he smells smoke from the kitchen it's because he's trying to cook a steak for Jezebel. Why would he not know how to do that if he already admitted to cooking steaks regularly?