is Emma Frost responsible for Empath being a villain?

[Monty_Cristo]

She was his teacher/mentor; more hands-on with him than the other Hellions. should she be shouldering some of the blame for his evil deeds (this Hellfire Cult stuff)?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0...path_super.jpg

[MartinRedmond]

She was practically his mentor in date rape. Ie, trading bodies with Storm then getting it on with Sebastian Shaw. Switching bodies with Jean Grey and Bobby~ without their consent.

[Monty_Cristo]

Originally Posted by MartinRedmond

She was practically his mentor in date rape. Ie, trading bodies with Storm then getting it on with Sebastian Shaw. Switching bodies with Jean Grey and Bobby~ without their consent.

i'm just thinking that she, irresponsibly, warped him and never made up for that. i mean most people would say Mystique shares some of the blame for Carol Danvers having her memories sucked out. why does Emma get a pass?

[darknessatnoon]

Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo

i'm just thinking that she, irresponsibly, warped him and never made up for that. i mean most people would say Mystique shares some of the blame for Carol Danvers having her memories sucked out. why does Emma get a pass?

Rogue did more good with Carol's powers than Carol ever could. How come Mystique never gets credit for that?

[Sijo]

Originally Posted by darknessatnoon

Rogue did more good with Carol's powers than Carol ever could. How come Mystique never gets credit for that?

Because she never planned it that way? Rogue is a hero despite of, not because of, Mystique.

[darknessatnoon]

Originally Posted by Sijo

Because she never planned it that way? Rogue is a hero despite of, not because of, Mystique.

Of course she planned it that way.

Mystique had future knowledge with the Destiny Diaries. Rogue was just a pawn.

[AcesX1X]

If I may speak on behalf of my favorite x-character ever: Empath was a sadistic freak before he went to school with the Hellions. It's just his nature. Imagine already being somewhat depraved and then finding out you could manipulate people's emotions without lifting so much as a finger? Manny de la Rocha was like a kid in a candy shop.

Now, Emma could shoulder some of the blame....I'm sure she probably does. Especially since he's one of a handful of her original students still left alive.

However, it could also be argued that if Emma had not stepped in during Manny's developmental years, he could have turned out a lot worse. Sure, she bred him to be ruthless, uncaring, and manipulative - but those were traits he already had. All Emma did was find a way to focus them for productive means.

Empath's time with the Hellions was tumultuous. He was a thorn in everyone's side - including his classmates'. Warpath frequently looked as if he wanted to smash Manny's skull into a brick wall, and one of Empath's favorite games was playing torture-the-shy-girl on Tarot. Magma tamed him a little bit, but she's a psycho herself, so we all knew that could not last.

I hope this helps! Some dogs just need to be put down, no matter who their owner is! This is especially true for Empath.

But, I heart him anyway.

[DeniseXfrost]

^True that.

Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo

why does Emma get a pass?

She does?

[MartinRedmond]

Mystique's an aimless mongoloid without Irene's cheating walkthrough of cheating. She gets absolutely zero credit for anything except being a dingbat.

[DeadXMan]

Emma's responsible for her students either becoming evil or dead.

[worstblogever]

I would say the times where Emma "disciplined" him and temporarily psionically shut his powers off while gloating over him while wearing white dominatrix gear might have laid the seeds that have pushed him toward his current fascination with BDSM.

But he was twisted before he ever got to the Hellions. Emma tried to get him to be a team player. So did Magma, while they were an item. But alas, it just seems to be in his nature to drift towards the naughty parts of life. Doing "Kick", starting hate gangs, and the like.

I'll go for partially her fault, in any event.

[darknessatnoon]

It's not her fault at all. The roots of perversion are lain in early childhood, not during the late teen years.

Face it: he's a bad seed.

Clearly all of you who voted against Emma here oppose Xavier's Dream -- it's a dream about taking personal responsibility over your life. Projecting blame is a Magneto Fetish.

[Monty_Cristo]

Originally Posted by worstblogever

I would say the times where Emma "disciplined" him and temporarily psionically shut his powers off while gloating over him while wearing white dominatrix gear might have laid the seeds that have pushed him toward his current fascination with BDSM.

But he was twisted before he ever got to the Hellions. Emma tried to get him to be a team player. So did Magma, while they were an item. But alas, it just seems to be in his nature to drift towards the naughty parts of life. Doing "Kick", starting hate gangs, and the like.

I'll go for partially her fault, in any event.

sounds right but do you think he would have turned out similarly if he had attended Xavier's? Emma definatley provided Manuel with a focus. but he was being steered towards becoming a success within an organization like the Hellfire Club. i don't remember her ever encouraging him to use his powers for anything besides manipulation. she didn't stop him from manipulating his teammates out of nobility. she was worried that he'd damage the Club's future resources. mostly, i'm asking this because i've already read this week's issue of Astonishing X-Men. :)

Originally Posted by darknessatnoon

It's not her fault at all. The roots of perversion are lain in early childhood, not during the late teen years.

Face it: he's a bad seed.

Clearly all of you who voted against Emma here oppose Xavier's Dream -- it's a dream about taking personal responsibility over your life. Projecting blame is a Magneto Fetish.

eh, i don't buy into that bad seed nonsense. people being preprogrammed machines is a Sage-fetish. personality's as much nurture (environment, upbringing, experiences,etc) as nature (genetics), imo. Emma failed in modifying Empath's behavior; in showing him an alternative to using his powers selfishly. i think she rewarded the Hellion's darker traits because they would eventually benefit the Club.

[Silver Fox]

Originally Posted by AcesX1X

If I may speak on behalf of my favorite x-character ever: Empath was a sadistic freak before he went to school with the Hellions. It's just his nature. Imagine already being somewhat depraved and then finding out you could manipulate people's emotions without lifting so much as a finger? Manny de la Rocha was like a kid in a candy shop.

Now, Emma could shoulder some of the blame....I'm sure she probably does. Especially since he's one of a handful of her original students still left alive.

However, it could also be argued that if Emma had not stepped in during Manny's developmental years, he could have turned out a lot worse. Sure, she bred him to be ruthless, uncaring, and manipulative - but those were traits he already had. All Emma did was find a way to focus them for productive means.

Empath's time with the Hellions was tumultuous. He was a thorn in everyone's side - including his classmates'. Warpath frequently looked as if he wanted to smash Manny's skull into a brick wall, and one of Empath's favorite games was playing torture-the-shy-girl on Tarot. Magma tamed him a little bit, but she's a psycho herself, so we all knew that could not last.

I hope this helps! Some dogs just need to be put down, no matter who their owner is! This is especially true for Empath.

But, I heart him anyway.

I heart him, too, but everything you said is correct.

I voted Emma being partially to blame. But even if he'd ended up with a different role model, he probably would've ended up still going down a similiar path.

[Monty_Cristo]

Originally Posted by DeniseXfrost

^True that.

She does?

she has from Cyclops? what Emma did to Empath was even more insidious than what Mr.Sinister did, in some ways. Sinister made sure that Scott was never adopted so he could monitor most closely. Emma made sure that she was the only guiding force in Manuel's life. He's Emma Frost without the nuances/sophistication/ability to change. if he's a bad seed does that somehow make it less immoral for Emma to have "nurtured" his badness?