Aquaman Fans

[EnDwiGast]

Originally Posted by Billy

What his origin? And that was fairly thin similarity.




And then what would the point of that? It seemed Kurt wanted to play Arthur as King and Arthur Joseph as the Sword of Atlantis, but Kurt bailed, and showed no confidence in his creation. I don't care what could of been, I try to look forward. All I see is a bland character with the title of Aquaman. He could of become a more interesting character, but can't any character?



Introducing the new character, to me is just a bad idea, it barely works, and it didn't work here. Its just completely unnecessery, especially if he eventually wound up being similar to the previous Aquaman. Aquaman has been handled halfassed since Our Worlds at War.

I have to agree with an underlying sentiment in here. If you're going to roll out a long term, character redefining storyline - you ought to have the commitment to see it through. I don't know if it was Kurt Busiek's lack of commitment, DC's or both. As a Conan reader (as well as other Busiek runs in the past) Busiek does seem to disappear from titles and hand off to others.

I didn't see a need for a new character either. But (probably like you) did give the story a chance. But this new Aquaman seems to have zero personality. For fans of the new Aquaman, I'm sorry if that sounds harsh - but I just didn't see any. I think being a newbie has been his only personality so far.

I agree with you. I still can't see the point of creating a new Aquaman. All it seemed to do was make the situation more convoluted, not less. You would have thought a lesson would have been learned from Hawkworld.

Maybe he'll pick up some real character in Outsiders, or better yet, Orin will make a big return in Final Countdown.

[paulski]

Originally Posted by Billy

I find it pathetic, that people will regard Aquaman as lame because of bad press, especially when if you seriously look at any superhero the concepts can be just as bizarre and silly. Superman and Batman still wear underwear on the outside of their clothes, Clark Kent wears glasses to disguise him, Green Arrow battles crime with Bow and arrow in the days of handguns. They choose to ignore this, then turn around and bag out Aquaman, just because some comedians made a joke from watchings 70s saturday morning kids show. C'mon, wake up to yourself.

As far as I'm concerned that new guy ain't Aquaman, and never will be Aquaman.

Billy, I'm right there with you, brother. I thought the book had been disastrous since they replaced Arthur/Orin in #40, and ending it now is a mercy killing. You're right - Aquaman Lite just ain't the real deal and a character I don't care whether he lives or dies.

Anyone that's read PAD's issues or even the series that ended in the late 70's knows how damn good the character and book can be. All you need is a good writer with a great idea and people will read the book.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

He's barely been handled since "Obsidian Age."

Our Worlds at war was before Obsidian Age, and is the story where they killed him. Obsidian Age could of been used as a Green Lantern Rebirth Storyline, but we all now how that turned out. He was barely in it.

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

He's been shuffled from creator to creator on a near-annual basis since then with no clear direction and no dedicated fanbase. The book should've been cancelled shortly after the Waterbearer arc tried and failed to relaunch the character in a post-Obsidian Age Atlantis with all manner of Lovecraftian sea monsters and whatnot. And The Thirst. Dear Jesus, that was bad.

Waterbearer should of never been published.

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

I believe introducing the new Aquaman was an attempt to clear some of the baggage of the old Aquaman, sadly most of which is from just the past four years of storytelling. Sub Diego was raised from the sea, Orin was possessed by the Waterbearer power and transformed into a squid-monster-man, and a new baggage-free Aquaman appeared.

I don't see no baggage on Aquaman, I don't see on most heroes in the DCU. There is no way Kurt Busiek vision didn't create more "baggage". People still think the new guy is Arthur Jr, even though his origin is different and Kurt Busiek's has said his not.

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

Same name as the old guy, same powers as the old guy, incredibly similar origin as the old guy, but a clean slate so far as continuity's concerned.

What is the point? I don't buy baggage? And his not similiar where it counts!

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

That said, nobody has a friggin' clue what the plan was with the character.

Funny, cause I only offered my opinion where the book was heading, after you expressed yours.

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

Kurt left the book to work on his big project he'd pitched before taking over Aquaman, and even before he left he didn't really shed much light on his plans for the character because not a whole lot of people interviewed him about it. He hangs out here a lot, though, so if we bother him enough, we could probably find out.

his got better things to do.I don't mind not knowing.

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

But I think the majority of blame goes to editorial. Every other character at DC has been given a clear direction over the years since Identity Crisis, even when shifting from creator to creator. Jesus, even minor characters without their own books seemed to have better direction than Aquaman. It's like nobody was paying attention to the book, its meandering sales, its directionless storylines and juggling creative teams. This book was doomed to fail because, apparently, nobody at DC give a !@#$ about the character enough to save him.

Totally agree!

[Billy]

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

I have to agree with an underlying sentiment in here. If you're going to roll out a long term, character redefining storyline - you ought to have the commitment to see it through. I don't know if it was Kurt Busiek's lack of commitment, DC's or both. As a Conan reader (as well as other Busiek runs in the past) Busiek does seem to disappear from titles and hand off to others.

I'm a fan of Kurt Busiek, His had long runs before (Avengers), I even consider Conan as a fairly solid run, Aquaman seemed more of a fill-in.

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

Maybe he'll pick up some real character in Outsiders, or better yet, Orin will make a big return in Final Countdown.

If he does, I won't see it.

Originally Posted by paulski

Anyone that's read PAD's issues or even the series that ended in the late 70's knows how damn good the character and book can be. All you need is a good writer with a great idea and people will read the book..

Agreed! It doesn't even have to be a ongoing. It doesn't help the matter when I hear creators voicing their interest in Aquaman, and DC doing nothing. Alot of them are top Talent and a name to attract readers. But DC shows no interest in Aquaman.

[Jack Zodiac]

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

Thats the episode.

Thanks.

Am I missing out by not reading the tail end of this series?

If you haven't been reading it lately, then no. All Tad seems to be doing is wrapping up loose ends from Kurt's run and some stuff left over from the Sub Diego story while introducing even more new elements at the same time, which is... well, it's making a bad idea worse. Best to avoid it seeing as how it's gonna' be cancelled soon anyway.

[Jack Zodiac]

Originally Posted by Billy

I don't see no baggage on Aquaman, I don't see on most heroes in the DCU. There is no way Kurt Busiek vision didn't create more "baggage". People still think the new guy is Arthur Jr, even though his origin is different and Kurt Busiek's has said his not.

Really? The five or six different directions the character and book have taken since it relaunched don't seem like baggage to you? Mind you, plenty of other characters often change directions a lot as well, but their arcs are usually wrapped up before they start a new one, whereas, to this day, nobody's finished the whole Waterbearer/Thirst idea. What I saw with Kurt's run was getting rid of the old character (which I'm sure would've pissed off a lot more people if the book weren't selling for crap already) and introducing a new character who could've taken his place without the past five years of crap bogging him down.

This could've been fixed much easier if they'd gone with a OYL soft reboot and blamed Infinite Crisis. Or hell, pull Aquaman from Earth-2 out of a magic hat and drop him in Atlantis. Anything to get rid of the crapfest Aquaman had become, because as much as people here enjoy trashing Kurt's run as being the killing blow for the book, I'm pretty sure they clubbed this bastard in the legs before it even started running.

[jadrax]

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

The real problem was introducing this new concept and direction, a vastly different concept with a brand-new character, in the middle of an already floundering run on the book. A retitling wasn't enough, it should've been relaunched and hyped up. Instead, it was a silent change practically nobody noticed (not even the major character of the DC Universe who still don't know exactly where the hell Aquaman is) and did nothing to attract new readers or salvage the already-doomed book.

I think its interesting if you compare what he did with Aquaman, to what he did with Arion, another character that he decided (Probably rightly,) needed returning to his roots.

Ok, So Arion hasn't held his own book since the Early 90s, but the whole thing was done with a lot more respect, with the original version coming back and declaring the new one as a fake.

I wonder if that would have worked better, if we could have had the Golden Age Aquaman come back and show that everything from PADs run onward was an imposter.

Of course it probably would have divided those that Love and those that Hate PADs stuff even further.

[EnDwiGast]

Originally Posted by Billy

I'm a fan of Kurt Busiek, His had long runs before (Avengers), I even consider Conan as a fairly solid run, Aquaman seemed more of a fill-in.



If he does, I won't see it.



Agreed! It doesn't even have to be a ongoing. It doesn't help the matter when I hear creators voicing their interest in Aquaman, and DC doing nothing. Alot of them are top Talent and a name to attract readers. But DC shows no interest in Aquaman.

I'm a Busiek fan too. Thats why I've been there to follow his runs -- like Conan -- but it gets harder to invest in someone's long term storyline if I don't have a reasonable expectation they will finish it.

He gave up Conan so that he could do Aquaman. He gave up Aquaman for some still unrevealed project. I can't help but be a little wary when this project emerges - if its set up as something that you have to stick around long-term for a payoff. The run on Conan was excellent (wish there had been more Born on the battlefield moments from Conan's youth). I kept thinking throughout his Aquaman run that I'm waiting for those stories to hit the level where I'd stop thinking - "I wish he were still on Conan" - but never did.

We've already seen Aquaman's potential. I have to agree with those posters who feel that it was more a case of DC dropping the ball by not maintaining the quality level.

I had high hopes for Obsidian Age & didn't feel that story and the relaunch that followed lived up to what I hoped would happen.

What i liked about David's run is that the longer stories were sub-plot along with shorter, more contained stories. When Aquaman relaunched I lost interest when the sole focus remained on just the long term storyline. Same with One Year Later - though i enjoyed a lot of the run, beneath it all - what kept me going was the constant hope of seeing Orin transform back. As much as i enjoyed Busiek's work on Avengers - his overly long Kang War storyline killed a bit of momentum on the book in the end.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

Really? The five or six different directions the character and book have taken since it relaunched don't seem like baggage to you?

Your kinda overdoing it aren't you? Let's count them, One WaterBearer, Two Sub Diego, um then its Kurt Busiek's Run.

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

Mind you, plenty of other characters often change directions a lot as well, but their arcs are usually wrapped up before they start a new one, whereas, to this day, nobody's finished the whole Waterbearer/Thirst idea.

Yes, they did, did you read it? It was rushed and terrible but it was finished, Veitch left it open to take the book in any direction they wanted.

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

What I saw with Kurt's run was getting rid of the old character (which I'm sure would've pissed off a lot more people if the book weren't selling for crap already) and introducing a new character who could've taken his place without the past five years of crap bogging him down.

Again, that is your warped opinion, five years of Crap? Sub Diego was a great read, Will Pfiefer did a good job, if he was allowed to continue, it probably would have been for the better. And there was nothing wrong with the character. And what "crap" bogging him down? Seriously, all Sub Diego was, was a change of location.

Originally Posted by Jack Zodiac

because as much as people here enjoy trashing Kurt's run as being the killing blow for the book, I'm pretty sure they clubbed this bastard in the legs before it even started running.

Really who said that?

[Billy]

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

He gave up Conan so that he could do Aquaman.

No, he gave up Conan cause he signed a contract with DC. Then he looked for a title that had the fantasy aspect he discovered a love for while writing Conan. Aquaman offered this opportunity. I must also highlight that New Aquaman was only one of his ideas, the one that Dan Didio wanted to follow.

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

He gave up Aquaman for some still unrevealed project.

I don't think this is the soul reason, the bad handling of the title was a reason if I may guess, it lost him Butch Guice and honestly any support. After all if its workload, why is he doing Action Comics fill-ins.

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

I can't help but be a little wary when this project emerges - if its set up as something that you have to stick around long-term for a payoff. The run on Conan was excellent (wish there had been more Born on the battlefield moments from Conan's youth). I kept thinking throughout his Aquaman run that I'm waiting for those stories to hit the level where I'd stop thinking - "I wish he were still on Conan" - but never did.

I'm collecting Conan through Trade, so I haven't read those Conan Youth stories yet. I just bought Hall of the Dead SC. Can't wait to read it.

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

I had high hopes for Obsidian Age & didn't feel that story and the relaunch that followed lived up to what I hoped would happen.

True

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

What i liked about David's run is that the longer stories were sub-plot along with shorter, more contained stories. When Aquaman relaunched I lost interest when the sole focus remained on just the long term storyline. Same with One Year Later - though i enjoyed a lot of the run, beneath it all - what kept me going was the constant hope of seeing Orin transform back.

Haha! Yes, that was the main pull for me too.

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

As much as i enjoyed Busiek's work on Avengers - his overly long Kang War storyline killed a bit of momentum on the book in the end.

They should of made it a bigger event, Heroes were enslaved but nothing was shown in other titles.

[Kurt Busiek]

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

He gave up Conan so that he could do Aquaman.

Not quite. I gave up Conan because I went exclusive with DC.

He gave up Aquaman for some still unrevealed project.

More accurately, I was removed from Aquaman in order to make time for a project DC wanted me to do instead. I didn't really object -- with Butch gone, it wasn't as much fun -- but it was DC's decision more than mine.

And then, of course, DC chose to delay the project I'd been removed from Aquaman to write, for a year. But that's showbiz, I guess...

The run on Conan was excellent (wish there had been more Born on the battlefield moments from Conan's youth).

There are two more coming -- #45-46 -- to wrap up that cycle of stories. It was part of my DC deal that I'd get to finish those.

Open-ended series, no one stays on forever. Closed-ended series -- I think I've completed every one of those I've started, except for the few that have been canceled out from under me, like REGULATORS.

As much as i enjoyed Busiek's work on Avengers - his overly long Kang War storyline killed a bit of momentum on the book in the end.

So maybe you'd have been happier there if I'd left when George left, rather than staying until you didn't enjoy the book so much any more. Or if I had, maybe you'd figure that if I'd stayed, things would have been just as good, so I'd bailed out too early. Go figure.

Still, I think whatever reputation I have for leaving books early is based pretty solely on AQUAMAN, and doesn't seem to be a pattern. Even CONAN, I was on for 29 issues (the "Legend" issue and #1-28), plus four double-sized issues of THOTH, and four other issues (the Kayanan issue and the last three Battlefield chapters), making a run of 37 issues, which'll wind up collected in 6 volumes, not exactly a flash in the pan.

25 issues of IRON MAN, 33 of THUNDERBOLTS, 68 or so AVENGERS (counting the regular series, the annuals and Avengers Forever), 37 of CONAN, close to 50 of ASTRO CITY so far, 28 of UNTOLD TALES, 21 of SUPERMAN/ACTION (so far)...it's not exactly strewn with short runs, is it?

Most cases, I seem good to stick around a while. I'm glad that people wish I'd have stuck around longer, though -- it beats having them wonder why I don't leave sooner!

kdb

[EnDwiGast]

Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek

Not quite. I gave up Conan because I went exclusive with DC.



More accurately, I was removed from Aquaman in order to make time for a project DC wanted me to do instead. I didn't really object -- with Butch gone, it wasn't as much fun -- but it was DC's decision more than mine.

And then, of course, DC chose to delay the project I'd been removed from Aquaman to write, for a year. But that's showbiz, I guess...



There are two more coming -- #45-46 -- to wrap up that cycle of stories. It was part of my DC deal that I'd get to finish those.

Open-ended series, no one stays on forever. Closed-ended series -- I think I've completed every one of those I've started, except for the few that have been canceled out from under me, like REGULATORS.



So maybe you'd have been happier there if I'd left when George left, rather than staying until you didn't enjoy the book so much any more. Or if I had, maybe you'd figure that if I'd stayed, things would have been just as good, so I'd bailed out too early. Go figure.

Still, I think whatever reputation I have for leaving books early is based pretty solely on AQUAMAN, and doesn't seem to be a pattern. Even CONAN, I was on for 29 issues (the "Legend" issue and #1-28), plus four double-sized issues of THOTH, and four other issues (the Kayanan issue and the last three Battlefield chapters), making a run of 37 issues, which'll wind up collected in 6 volumes, not exactly a flash in the pan.

25 issues of IRON MAN, 33 of THUNDERBOLTS, 68 or so AVENGERS (counting the regular series, the annuals and Avengers Forever), 37 of CONAN, close to 50 of ASTRO CITY so far, 28 of UNTOLD TALES, 21 of SUPERMAN/ACTION (so far)...it's not exactly strewn with short runs, is it?

Most cases, I seem good to stick around a while. I'm glad that people wish I'd have stuck around longer, though -- it beats having them wonder why I don't leave sooner!

kdb

I have to say that Untold Tales was outstanding. I've always wondered if it was the fore-runner of todays Ultimate Universe.

I enjoyed the runs on Iron Man, Thunderbolts and Avengers. So I've been a fan of your work for a while now.

In terms of length - the Conan run was a pretty long one in this day and age, and i was sorry to see you go from there too. (Again, great job - especially with the Born on the Battlefield stories)

I'm glad to see you have a chance to come in with Aquaman #45 and #46. I didn't realize that, so I will be checking them out. I'd be interested in some behind-the-scenes insight (if not now, then someday) on the decision to go with a new Aquaman starting with One Year Later. Since the underlying storyline isn't done, it might not be possible for that to be talked about.

As for the Avengers - huge debt of gratitude for bringing back Wonder Man, the Ultron storyline, Justice & Firestar, what you did with the Vision and Hank Pym. Just to name a few of the highlights.

I am glad you stayed after George left. I was always curious about if you'd had plans for a group of off-world Avengers. But the re-org of Avengers you wrote after George left made a lot of sense - and I wish it had stuck.

I liked the pacing of the Kang War megastory. In its early stages there were plenty of other stories going on - and the build-up happened naturally. Maybe in this day and age there are possibilities that weren't available then - but the ending should have (at least in my opinion) been on the scale of World War Hulk - as far as the Marvel U is concerned. Its one of those stories -- to me -- that when it blew open should have impacted everything, but it didn't seem to have much effect outside of Avengers. To be fair, thats probably entirely out of your control - but there didn't seem to be the kind of long term ramifications that a story of that magnitude should have had. (Especially since it didn't end up getting written away as happening in an alternate reality) Again, that probably gets into the realm of politics and internal company dynamics that I just don't get to see. Much like other moves you've mentioned.

Hopefully, the fact that your departures were missed says something about how I feel about your work. There was a time when i was limited to books on sale at the local AAFES in Korea - so you wrote about half of what I collected at the time.

Honestly though, as far as payoff goes in terms of Aquaman, I had been hoping it would lead to Orin's return to a new level of glory. so anything other than that would probably have disappointed me. And truthfully, whenever I pick up an issue with an Aquaman in it, I'm hoping that it will be the story where that happens.

Last but not least, my apologies for this statement: "Busiek does seem to disappear from titles and hand off to others." I stand corrected.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek

I was removed from Aquaman in order to make time for a project DC wanted me to do instead... And then, of course, DC chose to delay the project I'd been removed from Aquaman to write, for a year. But that's showbiz, I guess...

Hmm, the wannabe detective in me is thinking, Kurt has been rumored to be the writer for Final Crisis. I don't think Countdown was originally in the cards (but was rather a follow-up to the sales success of 52). The addition of the one-year Countdown would account for the one year delay on "the project."

[Kurt Busiek]

Originally Posted by EnDwiGast

I'm glad to see you have a chance to come in with Aquaman #45 and #46.

Er, Conan #45-46.

I already wrote Aquaman #45-46, but you've read those.

I'd be interested in some behind-the-scenes insight (if not now, then someday) on the decision to go with a new Aquaman starting with One Year Later. Since the underlying storyline isn't done, it might not be possible for that to be talked about.

I can talk about parts of it, at least. Mainly, the problem was that AQUAMAN had been cancelled, and the various proposals for how to save it had been shot down by the higher-ups as not-likely-to-increase-sales (and from what I heard of them, I agree with the higher-ups). So I was invited to do something big and sweeping and different, as a kind of hail-Mary pass.

Dan Didio had an idea that I didn't like much. So I reworked it into something I did like, but he didn't like my version of it much.

So we had a long and rambling conversation about Aquaman, and what I thought the strengths of the concept were and how they'd been used well or poorly over the years, and I bounced a bunch of fragmentary ideas off him. One was that I think the underwater world should be an exotic fantasy world, a setting full of magic and mystery and lost tribes and cool visuals. Another was that I thought the classic Aquaman had been stuck in a rut since the Silver Age, losing Mera or the kingdom only to win them back, only to lose them again, only to win them back, only to lose them again, and so on, and I'd want to sidestep that. And a third was that I think Aquaman had been slowly drained of humanity over the decades -- he started out human-with-powers, got changed to half-human/half-Atlantean, and then got changed further into full-on Atlantean, which lost him his roots in the surface world, making him a man-of-one-world, a fish very much in the water. If I were doing ALL-STAR AQUAMAN or ULTIMATE AQUAMAN, I said, I'd go back to the original, primal Aquaman concept of the Golden Age, the human turned into a water-breather by his scientist father -- and I'd play him as an outsider, someone through whose eyes we could discover and wonder at the exotic fantasy world of the oceanscape.

That, Dan liked a lot, so we built from there, finding a way to do it without throwing out the past history -- and far from wanting to discard Orin, had I stayed around he'd have played a very large role, and we'd have discovered that the Golden Age Aquaman had been around too, and there were Aquamen (of sorts) even earlier than that, heretofore unsuspected -- and that they were all named Arthur, and there was a reason heroic water-breathing Arthurs kept, um, surfacing in human history.

I had a big, sprawling fantasy-novel of a story to tell that would have developed through a bunch of shorter stories, and resulted in Orin and Mera back on the throne of Atlantis, where people like to see them, and young Arthur as the heroic adventurer in gold-and-green with his destiny wide-open. Young Arthur would be the action lead, Orin would be King of the Seven Seas, and both of them would be importat to the series. But it would have taken a good long time (full of adventure and intrigue) to get there.

As for what the meat of the story would be, and the secrets behind the existence of the line of Arthurs, I'll keep that to myself -- now that it's been shuffled off in favor of other plans, I've figured out how to take the DCU out of it and turn it into a fantasy novel on its own. Which would be quite different from my original plans, but would still reflect them a fair amount.

Honestly though, as far as payoff goes in terms of Aquaman, I had been hoping it would lead to Orin's return to a new level of glory. so anything other than that would probably have disappointed me.

Well, I don't know if you'd have liked the goal I was aiming toward, which was a return to majesty for Orin, but allowing him to be husband, father, king and political force, while the punching-bad-guys was largely done by his protege, but I still think it'd have been an interesting ride.

Thanks for the kind words on the other books...

kdb

[EnDwiGast]

Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek

Er, Conan #45-46.

I already wrote Aquaman #45-46, but you've read those.

Brain fart. Excellent news about Conan. (not that I haven't been enjoying the current team's work)

Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek

So we had a long and rambling conversation about Aquaman, and what I thought the strengths of the concept were and how they'd been used well or poorly over the years, and I bounced a bunch of fragmentary ideas off him. One was that I think the underwater world should be an exotic fantasy world, a setting full of magic and mystery and lost tribes and cool visuals. Another was that I thought the classic Aquaman had been stuck in a rut since the Silver Age, losing Mera or the kingdom only to win them back, only to lose them again, only to win them back, only to lose them again, and so on, and I'd want to sidestep that. And a third was that I think Aquaman had been slowly drained of humanity over the decades -- he started out human-with-powers, got changed to half-human/half-Atlantean, and then got changed further into full-on Atlantean, which lost him his roots in the surface world, making him a man-of-one-world, a fish very much in the water. If I were doing ALL-STAR AQUAMAN or ULTIMATE AQUAMAN, I said, I'd go back to the original, primal Aquaman concept of the Golden Age, the human turned into a water-breather by his scientist father -- and I'd play him as an outsider, someone through whose eyes we could discover and wonder at the exotic fantasy world of the oceanscape.

An All-Star Aquaman, even now, sounds like a great idea. I'd love to see that. Thank you for breaking down what your take would have been. I think there was a lot of positive response to your vision for the undersea world. There was a lot of potential there. I can also understand you wanting to side-step the repetitive lose the kingdom/Mera cycle.

Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek

-- and far from wanting to discard Orin, had I stayed around he'd have played a very large role, and we'd have discovered that the Golden Age Aquaman had been around too, and there were Aquamen (of sorts) even earlier than that, heretofore unsuspected -- and that they were all named Arthur, and there was a reason heroic water-breathing Arthurs kept, um, surfacing in human history.

I had a big, sprawling fantasy-novel of a story to tell that would have developed through a bunch of shorter stories, and resulted in Orin and Mera back on the throne of Atlantis, where people like to see them, and young Arthur as the heroic adventurer in gold-and-green with his destiny wide-open. Young Arthur would be the action lead, Orin would be King of the Seven Seas, and both of them would be importat to the series. But it would have taken a good long time (full of adventure and intrigue) to get there.

As for what the meat of the story would be, and the secrets behind the existence of the line of Arthurs, I'll keep that to myself -- now that it's been shuffled off in favor of other plans, I've figured out how to take the DCU out of it and turn it into a fantasy novel on its own. Which would be quite different from my original plans, but would still reflect them a fair amount.

Well, I don't know if you'd have liked the goal I was aiming toward, which was a return to majesty for Orin, but allowing him to be husband, father, king and political force, while the punching-bad-guys was largely done by his protege, but I still think it'd have been an interesting ride.

Thanks for the kind words on the other books...

kdb

Having heard your plans - the answer is that it would have been everything I would have been hoping for One Year Later. Now I'm going to be stuck wondering "what if". I'll keep an eye out for the book (even though that may make the sense of "what if" more painful). Best of luck on the book.

As for the other books, thank you. I did what i could to steer clear of the bar scene over there (Korea) and reading the Avengers, as well as Iron Man and Thunderbolts gave me a different focus for a good chunk of my down time. Avengers, Iron Man and Hawkeye(Thunderbolts) have been at the core of my collection from the start. Those were good times for me as an Avengers fan, and I'm grateful to everyone who helped make it that. Untold Tales brought me back to Spider-Man and was the only Spider-book I picked up for a long time.

Thanks for not holding some rash/poorly chosen words against me and for taking the time to show what could have been.