Why is Hulk #181 considered Wolverine’s 1st appearance?

[shaxper]

I’ve been asking this question for years now and have never received a satisfactory answer. True, Overstreet does label Hulk #181 as Wolverine’s 1st BRIEF appearance, but the demand and dollar difference between these two issues speak louder. According to the newest Overstreet, Hulk #180 is worth 1/6th of Hulk #181. Clearly, fans are seeing #181 as the more important issue.

I’ve put together the best arguments I’ve heard for why Hulk #181 is the truer first appearance of Wolverine and refuted them. Please feel free to add to this and tell me something I’ve overlooked. I own both comics, so this is not an investment issue, but rather a logic issue. This just doesn’t make sense.


Argument #1:

”Wolverine’s appearance in #180 serves as a teaser/advertisement for the next issue. He’s not really a part of the story in that issue.”

Wolverine appears in an actual story panel, thus he is in the story. It is not a house ad. He is in full view and speaking. He is actively part of the story and clearly making an appearance (not just lurking off panel, barely seen).


Argument #2:

”You don’t see much of Wolverine in #180. #181 is the real introduction of the character where we learn what he’s about.”

Yes, we learn that he possesses super strength, super speed, and a sarcastic, joke-cracking persona similar to Spider-Man’s (all of which get tossed by the time of GS X-Men #1). There’s no mention of a healing factor here (poison gas knocks him out), adamantium laced bones (the Hulk breaks his ribs), longevity, nor do we see him without his mask, learn his name, or discover anything else meaningful about the character. We learned in #180 that he works for the Canadian Air Force and that he’s their Weapon X. We also saw his costume in that issue and saw that he had claws (though it would be years before we’d learn they’re attached to him). Nothing else is introduced about this character in the next issue. We might see him for more pages, but we don’t learn anything else about him in those pages.


Argument #3:

”It’s just the convention. It’s not considered a full first appearance if it’s a one-panel cameo at the very end of the issue.”

And yet Fantastic Four #48 is largely considered to be Galactus’ first appearance. He’s referenced throughout the issue (as was “Weapon X”) and only appears in the last panel (as did Wolverine). The only difference is that Galactus’ name was on the cover. I don’t see anyone running around, paying top dollar for Fantastic Four #49 because it’s Galactus’ REAL or FULL first appearance.



So what else am I missing? What makes Hulk #181 special?

[agrich]

I won't touch the first argument, I can see your point. However....

Argument #2: None of your responses make a case for why 181 shouldn't be more valuable than 180. Just because we don't learn all those things about Wolverine in 181 - no doubt because no one had thought of them yet - doesn't mean we don't see a lot more out of the character in 181 than 180. In 180 we see one panel of a guy in a costume and one line of dialogue. In 181 (I own them both too) we get an entire issue of him fighting the Hulk and the Wendigo. Plus he's on the cover.

Argument #3: The reason FF 48 is more valuable than FF 49 is that it's the first appearance of the Silver Surfer. If there were no Silver Surfer in the issue, and Galactus only appeared on the last page and then was in 49 throughout, I wouldn't be surprised if 49, like Hulk 181, was worth more. FF 48 is referred to as the first appearance of Galactus, but it's more known - and more valuable - as the first appearance of Norrin Radd. No Silver Surfer, I bet FF 49 would be worth more than FF 48.

Argument #4: Perhaps you haven't heard this one, so I'll throw it out there. Hulk 181 is more valuable than Hulk 180 because far more Wolverine and X-Men fans, historically, have wanted to own it. I mean granted, some people buy it and have bought it in recent years only BECAUSE it's more valuable, but way back when you could buy them both for a reasonable price - I did - it was Hulk 181 that you wanted to own. Not necessarily because of the argument of which was first, obviously 180 came first. But as a fan, which would you rather own? One (albeit the first ever) panel of Wolverine, or a full issue of him leaping around?

It's the mid-'80s, the X-Men are hotter than anything, and everyone loves Wolverine. "Where'd this guy come from?" "Well, he was introduced in the pages of the Hulk." "What issue?" "Well, he first appeared in 180, on the last page, in one panel, and then was in all of 181, and on the cover, fighting with the Hulk." "Wow, that's the one I've got to own."

[shaxper]

Originally Posted by agrich

Argument #2: None of your responses make a case for why 181 shouldn't be more valuable than 180. Just because we don't learn all those things about Wolverine in 181 - no doubt because no one had thought of them yet - doesn't mean we don't see a lot more out of the character in 181 than 180. In 180 we see one panel of a guy in a costume and one line of dialogue. In 181 (I own them both too) we get an entire issue of him fighting the Hulk and the Wendigo. Plus he's on the cover.

My entire point is that we don't see more of him. Nothing meaningful is established about the character that wasn't established in #180. Yes, this is his first battle and, perhaps should be credited as such, but that doesn't make this more of a first appearance, nor should it make it more historically significant than the very first time readers saw the character in print.

You make a good point about the cover, however I don't think that's enough of a reason to make this a MORE important issue, and the Galactus comparison still comes into play here. Galactus didn't make the cover until FF #49 (although he IS mentioned on the cover of #48). Maybe that's what this all comes down to.

Argument #3: The reason FF 48 is more valuable than FF 49 is that it's the first appearance of the Silver Surfer. If there were no Silver Surfer in the issue, and Galactus only appeared on the last page and then was in 49 throughout, I wouldn't be surprised if 49, like Hulk 181, was worth more. FF 48 is referred to as the first appearance of Galactus, but it's more known - and more valuable - as the first appearance of Norrin Radd. No Silver Surfer, I bet FF 49 would be worth more than FF 48.

The fact that it's also SS's first appearance doesn't (or shouldn't) have anything to do with what's considered Galactus' first appearance. If Sabertooth made his first appearance in Hulk #180, do you think people would be treating that as Wolvy's first full appearance too?

FF # 48 is commonly considered Galactus' first appearance. It just is. And, though I can't prove this, I honestly suspect the demand for that issue is based more on Galactus (possibly the greatest supervillain of all time) than Silver Surfer (who hasn't had a succesful title nor strong fan base in over a decade).

Argument #4: Perhaps you haven't heard this one, so I'll throw it out there. Hulk 181 is more valuable than Hulk 180 because far more Wolverine and X-Men fans, historically, have wanted to own it. I mean granted, some people buy it and have bought it in recent years only BECAUSE it's more valuable, but way back when you could buy them both for a reasonable price - I did - it was Hulk 181 that you wanted to own. Not necessarily because of the argument of which was first, obviously 180 came first. But as a fan, which would you rather own? One (albeit the first ever) panel of Wolverine, or a full issue of him leaping around?

This thread is asking why fans want #181 more, so the fact that fans want #181 more really isn't an argument one way or the other. As mentioned in my other arguments, it's the fact that fans do apparently care more for a full issue of him leaping around than his genuine first appearance in print that has me confused. I've yet to understand the reason for that other than the fact that Overstreet has told people to want this issue more.

It's the mid-'80s, the X-Men are hotter than anything, and everyone loves Wolverine. "Where'd this guy come from?" "Well, he was introduced in the pages of the Hulk." "What issue?" "Well, he first appeared in 180, on the last page, in one panel, and then was in all of 181, and on the cover, fighting with the Hulk." "Wow, that's the one I've got to own."

Not me. I'd want the very first time he appeared. I'd be curious to see what his original incarnation was like. In fact, his appearance has already changed slightly between #180 and #181, so you don't even get to see what he originally looked like in that book.

Again, if something (anything) significant had been demonstrated or revealed about Wolverine in #181, I might agree with you, but nothing does. The impression you get in #180 is, if anything, more accurate than the wise-cracking, super strength/speed impression we get in #181. It's Wolverine in name, costume, and claws only, and we already saw all of that in that single panel of #180.

So I see that you like #181 more because you see more of Wolverine in it, but I still don't understand why that makes it more important than his actual first appearance.

I do understand your point about a cover appearance. I can see why that would matter to people (and, indeed, FF #48 mentions Galactus, even while not showing him). Personally, I think the actual first appearance would matter more, but this explanation for the importance of #181 at least makes sense to me.

[shaxper]

Don't know why the forum header isn't showing that I replied, so I'm double posting to make it register. Sorry.

[ednemo]

Hulk 180 isn't considered the first full appearance for the same reason that teaser posters and 4 page teaser issues given out at conventions. They are not a full appearance, they are strictly a teaser. However, the market is set by the buyers. If everyone considered the teaser to be the most important the price would reflect it.

[shaxper]

Originally Posted by ednemo

Hulk 180 isn't considered the first full appearance for the same reason that teaser posters and 4 page teaser issues given out at conventions. They are not a full appearance, they are strictly a teaser. However, the market is set by the buyers. If everyone considered the teaser to be the most important the price would reflect it.

See arguments #1 and #3...

He's in the actual story and no moreso than Galactus was.

However, the market is set by the buyers

But, generally speaking, buyers follow guides (and stubborn venders/"experts" that have been following the guide for years). They don't think for themselves. If Overstreet says #181 is Wolvy's first appearance then that's what buyers go gunning for. It's the only reason I can think of why fans aren't gunning for #180 more. After all, say what you will about its quality or duration, it is the guy's literal first appearance in a comic book story.

[ednemo]

Originally Posted by shaxper

See arguments #1 and #3...

He's in the actual story and no moreso than Galactus was.

But, generally speaking, buyers follow guides (and stubborn venders/"experts" that have been following the guide for years). They don't think for themselves. If Overstreet says #181 is Wolvy's first appearance then that's what buyers go gunning for. It's the only reason I can think of why fans aren't gunning for #180 more. After all, say what you will about its quality or duration, it is the guy's literal first appearance in a comic book story.

Uh...in Hulk 180, Wolverine is on a single spread of the last page. He is a teaser so that you pick up the next issue. That's the point. I have the first appearance of Preacher in a Vertigo teaser that I got at a convention and it worth less than Preacher #1. I also have the first appearance of Grendel (Hunter Rose) in a small 6 page comic that Wagner put out. It too is not worth as much as Grendel #1. You asked why #181 was worth more and I told you. If you think 180 should be worth more, fine. Citing reasons that you think it should be more doesn't change the fact that it's not. I don't need to see your arguments a second time as to why you think it should be worth more, so don't bother telling me to reread your original comments. If you think you can get more for your copy, mark it as such and auction it off. Any collectable is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

[mandog]

In the Hulk issue where Grey Hulk and Wolverine duke it out (done by Mcfarlin) there is a * that says they first met in Hulk #180, so to me that says the editors of the Hulk book feel 180 is the first

[shaxper]

Originally Posted by ednemo

so don't bother telling me to reread your original comments. If you think you can get more for your copy, mark it as such and auction it off.

Originally Posted by shaxper

I own both comics, so this is not an investment issue, but rather a logic issue. This just doesn’t make sense.

Further evidence that you need to READ someone's post before replying with a snide attitude. I could care less about the actual market value. I'm asking about the logic behind it. If you have nothing to offer in that department other than "that's what people are paying cuz that's what people are paying" then your comments aren't particularly helpful here.

[shaxper]

Originally Posted by mandog

In the Hulk issue where Grey Hulk and Wolverine duke it out (done by Mcfarlin) there is a * that says they first met in Hulk #180, so to me that says the editors of the Hulk book feel 180 is the first

Thanks. That's interesting to know!

[The Foreigner]

Originally Posted by ednemo

Uh...in Hulk 180, Wolverine is on a single spread of the last page. He is a teaser so that you pick up the next issue. That's the point. I have the first appearance of Preacher in a Vertigo teaser that I got at a convention and it worth less than Preacher #1. I also have the first appearance of Grendel (Hunter Rose) in a small 6 page comic that Wagner put out. It too is not worth as much as Grendel #1. You asked why #181 was worth more and I told you. If you think 180 should be worth more, fine. Citing reasons that you think it should be more doesn't change the fact that it's not. I don't need to see your arguments a second time as to why you think it should be worth more, so don't bother telling me to reread your original comments. If you think you can get more for your copy, mark it as such and auction it off. Any collectable is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

What does that have to do with anything? Maybe you should have actually read his arguement before replying... :rolleyes:

[ednemo]

Right...I gave you the logic. I gave you the reason that it's more money. It's not considered his first appearance, I don't know where you got that idea. You specifically stated in your post that it's worth more money and I told you why. As or my snide attitude, I didn't have one until you became a jerk and started talking like I didn't read your post. If you have a problem with me, take it to the PM. And if you want to talk with me face to face, let me know and I'll send you my address. I don't hide behind the anonymity of the internet.

-Ed

[Expletive Deleted]

I think we're done, here.