Fables: War and Pieces

[DJWhamo]

*spoilers*

Perhaps this has been brought up before, or perhaps it's just me (in which case I apologize for wasting everyone's time) but was anyone else slightly disappointed in this? I mean, look- I can understand, realistically (well, within the confines of the Fables universe) how the war would have been as one-sided as it was, but after all the build up they gave it, did anyone not think there could have perhaps been a bit more depth? A LITTLE more of a fight put up from the Empire (really, if using ONE dragon could have gotten the job done, why was THAT their backup plan- to sending a legion of the things out there to die?!)? A bit more popular casualties on both sides- which seems realistic in a culmative fictional conflict of this type?

And this is suspending my disbelief that the Empire- whom it is established earlier WAS at least somewhat keeping tabs on the development of the Mundy world over the centuries (teaching Baba Yaga to drive and whatnot) would not have comprehended the potential danger they posed to them somewhat sooner. I mean, the author spells it out on the back of the book- they didn't conquer over 100 worlds by being stupid. And yet...

And then, finally, there's Gepetto. Sure, he reacts as one might imagine after the loss of the Golden Horde- each of the members of which he clearly views as his own children- and yet, when finally captured....one almost expects him to say something along the lines of "Curses, foiled again!" based on his reaction. I mean, sure, he was apparently never completely interested in the Empire, and he didn't have a lot of options at that point- but come on! He's the bloody-handed former ruler of over a hundred conquered worlds, whose just lost everything-- show some sign of something, man!

[noh-varr]

Originally Posted by DJWhamo

*spoilers*

Perhaps this has been brought up before, or perhaps it's just me (in which case I apologize for wasting everyone's time) but was anyone else slightly disappointed in this? I mean, look- I can understand, realistically (well, within the confines of the Fables universe) how the war would have been as one-sided as it was, but after all the build up they gave it, did anyone not think there could have perhaps been a bit more depth? A LITTLE more of a fight put up from the Empire (really, if using ONE dragon could have gotten the job done, why was THAT their backup plan- to sending a legion of the things out there to die?!)? A bit more popular casualties on both sides- which seems realistic in a culmative fictional conflict of this type?

And this is suspending my disbelief that the Empire- whom it is established earlier WAS at least somewhat keeping tabs on the development of the Mundy world over the centuries (teaching Baba Yaga to drive and whatnot) would not have comprehended the potential danger they posed to them somewhat sooner. I mean, the author spells it out on the back of the book- they didn't conquer over 100 worlds by being stupid. And yet...

And then, finally, there's Gepetto. Sure, he reacts as one might imagine after the loss of the Golden Horde- each of the members of whom he clearly views as his own children- and yet, when finally captured....one almost expects him to say something along the lines of "Curses, foiled again!" based on his reaction. I mean, sure, he was apparently never completely interested in the Empire, and he didn't have a lot of options at that point- but come on! He's the bloody-handed former ruler of over a hundred conquered worlds, whose just lost everything-- show some sign of something, man!

I actually agree fully. This arc was what made me quit reading Fables actually. It was two story arcs in a row where the Empire was defeated so easily with little to no consequence. The tension seemed to just die in the book. If all it took was a hundred or so guys with guns then why did the March of the Wooden Soldiers take so much out of Fabletown? And with all the spies and knowledge they had of the real world and how it could over power or equalize a dragon and they didn't grab some of their own and teach soldiers to use them? Doesn't make any sense.

I agree with Gepetto as well, I'm sure he will cause mischief and misery later, then he will get to shake his fist and say curse you again!

[scratchie]

I agree 100%. After the excellent nine-issue storyline that preceded it, I was expecting a lot more of "THE FABLETOWN/EMPIRE WAR" than three issues.

I haven't stopped reading Fables, but my interest level has dropped considerably. Even though the current storyline is very good, I'm just not that excited to see a new issue.

[CYOTI]

Originally Posted by DJWhamo

And this is suspending my disbelief that the Empire- whom it is established earlier WAS at least somewhat keeping tabs on the development of the Mundy world over the centuries (teaching Baba Yaga to drive and whatnot) would not have comprehended the potential danger they posed to them somewhat sooner. I mean, the author spells it out on the back of the book- they didn't conquer over 100 worlds by being stupid.

But they had gotten complacent through their conquests, which Gepetto had said was pretty much was now a two-step process of conquer and assimilate and then rinse and repeat. They simply didn't change over their hundreds of years since the Empire had built itself on stability through fear and had snuffed out any personal initiative or ingenuity within their lower ranks.
And their leadership had become so shortsighted and arrogant that they could never deal with the possibilty of defeat or their plans not going as planned. Look at for instance their plan for devastating the mundy world, none of the movers and shakers at the conference were willing to even believe that the mundies had the capability to resist or to broach the possibility that their plans could go pear shaped or that calling back the sorcerers for retraining could leave them exposed. And when Pinocchio pointed out the problems with their plan, none of them listened.

[vazel]

This arc is the dipping point in Fables for me and then especially with the whole Literals crap. But I still like Fables I'm enjoying the current arc.

[noh-varr]

Originally Posted by CYOTI

But they had gotten complacent through their conquests, which Gepetto had said was pretty much was now a two-step process of conquer and assimilate and then rinse and repeat. They simply didn't change over their hundreds of years since the Empire had built itself on stability through fear and had snuffed out any personal initiative or ingenuity within their lower ranks.
And their leadership had become so shortsighted and arrogant that they could never deal with the possibilty of defeat or their plans not going as planned. Look at for instance their plan for devastating the mundy world, none of the movers and shakers at the conference were willing to even believe that the mundies had the capability to resist or to broach the possibility that their plans could go pear shaped or that calling back the sorcerers for retraining could leave them exposed. And when Pinocchio pointed out the problems with their plan, none of them listened.

But again the issue is that a small force took down a huge massive empire. It would be like 20 guys taking down the Roman Empire. I don't care how complacent an empire is, you don't get dropped that quickly no matter how advanced and prepared the other group is when it's that small. It also poses this problem, no matter what situation comes up against Fabletown they took out a whole entire empire in a few issues with they can take on anything else.

[CYOTI]

I don't care how complacent an empire is, you don't get dropped that quickly no matter how advanced and prepared the other group is when it's that small.

You do when the other side knows where to hit you and is in possession of modern military technology and training.

[Freakzeek]

Originally Posted by noh-varr

But again the issue is that a small force took down a huge massive empire. It would be like 20 guys taking down the Roman Empire. I don't care how complacent an empire is, you don't get dropped that quickly no matter how advanced and prepared the other group is when it's that small. It also poses this problem, no matter what situation comes up against Fabletown they took out a whole entire empire in a few issues with they can take on anything else.

the Roman Empire isn't around anymore

[noh-varr]

Originally Posted by CYOTI

You do when the other side knows where to hit you and is in possession of modern military technology and training.

Not really. Even with the best technology, training, and knowledge you can't take down an empire in a few weeks with such a tiny force. We aren't talking about taking down a single army. The Empire had to be hands down the most incompetent, ignorant, and irrational lead nation in the history of the universe to lose this way. And they were never presented as those things, they took over hundreds of worlds, the Empire and the Emperor ended up being THE big bad of the book (not the intention of Willingham but when he did March of the Wooden Soldiers it became a necessary plot that had to be resolved) and it was taken down so quickly and with no issues. They knew about technology, were prepared enough when they sent out Baba Yaga. Was the Empire pompous and full of itself? Yes! Was it corrupted? Yep! Was it full of complete idiots? No! Even with all the pompousness in the world they still had brilliant military geniuses, had an army thousands and thousands of time vaster then Fabletown's whole population. These were trained soldiers, great magicians, and they had possession of huge amount of magical and enchanted items. They may have established a dragon could be taken down by a jet fighter, but the Empire still had Fabletown vastly out powered in numbers alone. And yet the whole thing happened nearly with no consequences, they eventually lost Boy Blue, and a few random no bodies.

Originally Posted by Freakzeek

the Roman Empire isn't around anymore

And it took so much corruption, outside forces, losing wars and battles to finally topple it. It didn't take a few weeks of a small force taking them out. The decline and fall of the Roman Empire took years, a very centuries in fact. And that only involved most of a continent, not worlds and worlds.

[CYOTI]

Originally Posted by noh-varr

The knew about technology, were prepared enough when they sent out Baba Yaga.

They knew about the threat of technology, but how serious were they to the threat? The fact that they didn't listen to pinocchio seems to me an indication that their arrogance and victory disease had blinded them to the problem.

No! Even with all the pompousness in the world they still had brilliant military geniuses, had an army thousands and thousands of time vaster then Fabletown's whole population.

Numbers mean very little when Fabletown had defenses and a means of projecting force that the Empire couldn't counter and when they had already beheaded the Empire in their first strike. We have seen plenty of real life battles, where technology allow small numbers of men to overpower thousands.

These were trained soldiers, great magicians, and they had possession of huge amount of magical and enchanted items.

The soldiers who were outmatched by 21st century weapons technology. The magicians had all been recalled to the capital for the Snow Queen's grand campaign against the Mundy world and the capital of course was engulfed by Sleeping Beauty's curse. The magical artifacts had been locked away to prevent their own subjects from using them. Which pretty much comes back to my original point, their shortsightedness ultimately proved to be their undoing.

And it took so much corruption, outside forces, losing wars and battles to finally topple it. It didn't take a few weeks of a small force taking them out..

The Empire was a far cry from Rome. Rome adapted new technologies and strategies and changed over time to meet the challenges, Gepetto's Empire did not, they stuck with the old paradigms and feared change and innovation since it could potentially empower their subjects and cause him to lose his grip on power. And in the when they were confronted with a foe that could outsmart them and outfight them, it was their death knell.

[ThePhenom]

I definately agree here too, I had been so excited to read the war arc and then somehow it all fell a little flat.

Sadly enough, the Jack war culmination arc was kinda what I had expected from the Fables one...

[DJWhamo]

CYOTI, here's my thing: even if we understand and accept how it went down, I just think the execution and presentation fell a little flat for what readers had come to expect from the series.

[passer-by]

Originally Posted by DJWhamo

CYOTI, here's my thing: even if we understand and accept how it went down, I just think the execution and presentation fell a little flat for what readers had come to expect from the series.

That I can agree with. Otherwise I'm pretty much of the same mind as CYOTI.

Problem is, I think, that the March of the Wooden Soldiers gave us some rather sensible expectations as to how the big war should develop. If a battle like that was presented in such detail and came out to be so dangerous for the Fables, then the war itself should have been on an even larger scale, including in terms of the number of issues.

Still, Bigby, the Beast, Prince Charming and the others got things organized and people trained, and technological advantage does have its importance in such a war. Furthermore, the Empire was stretched too thin and relied on fear and threats to keep people obedient. We already saw that only a selected few in every kingdom knew who was actually in charge.

By the way, Gepetto's war council did listen to Pinocchio and that's why Gepetto decided to take out the Fables first, so they couldn't inform the mundys what actually would have happened and transported them to the Empire through ways only a Fable knew.


I haven't yet read the Big Fables Crossover (have to wait for the trade and don't want to download the issues, even though I could), but I just read JoF TPB "The Books of War" and its events were an excellent addition to the Fables war, although unrelated. This series is growing on me - I was rather underwhelmed at the start, but it gets better and better. So Fables and Jack of Fables are more and more a fine combination.

[noh-varr]

Originally Posted by CYOTI

They knew about the threat of technology, but how serious were they to the threat? The fact that they didn't listen to pinocchio seems to me an indication that their arrogance and victory disease had blinded them to the problem.

Numbers mean very little when Fabletown had defenses and a means of projecting force that the Empire couldn't counter and when they had already beheaded the Empire in their first strike. We have seen plenty of real life battles, where technology allow small numbers of men to overpower thousands.

The soldiers who were outmatched by 21st century weapons technology. The magicians had all been recalled to the capital for the Snow Queen's grand campaign against the Mundy world and the capital of course was engulfed by Sleeping Beauty's curse. The magical artifacts had been locked away to prevent their own subjects from using them. Which pretty much comes back to my original point, their shortsightedness ultimately proved to be their undoing.


The Empire was a far cry from Rome. Rome adapted new technologies and strategies and changed over time to meet the challenges, Gepetto's Empire did not, they stuck with the old paradigms and feared change and innovation since it could potentially empower their subjects and cause him to lose his grip on power. And in the when they were confronted with a foe that could outsmart them and outfight them, it was their death knell.

I understand the in story reasoning. I just think it and the story before hand was more a series of the good guys running over the Empire with no problem. It's not only the lack of logic (as I mentioned earlier) it is the lack of suspense. With an airship, and one group of fighters in ONE set place (I mean they didn't even invade anything they sat by the bean stock) which means they should have been destroyed no matter how prepared as again, they were stationary and sitting ducks, took down an empire. A vast multi world empire. Not only did they take down this whole empire, they suffered nearly no loses. They had more casualties when it was a hundred or two wooden soldiers marching into their homes. Where AGAIN they had more technology, and had the prepared station. But this time they have the supposed weight of an empire on them and they just laugh them off. I feel Fables lost any sense of suspense or new things actually happening in the last few arcs which is why I stopped reading. War and Pieces ended up leaving me no longer caring about the characters or their war, the victory was too easy and I was never rallied behind them as characters or protagonists. Which is messed up since in the past I loved the book, Wooden Soldiers was a great conflict book, the first arc was a nice twist on a murder mystery, and Animal Farm was oh so well written. And that's not counting everything else leading up to issue 50 or so. Some of the stories weren't the most enjoyable, but until they started actively fighting this war (starting with Flycatcher's big arc) the book had tension. Fly's story started with some strong tension, but by the time he started taking out the Empire's soldiers with no worry I just lost the feel that anything story changing would happen, and sadly I was right. The big Empire was defeated in a handful of issues with nearly no consequence of the "war" fought. And this wouldn't of been an issue if the Empire hadn't been built up so much in every other arc, though really it was treated as a complete joke in every arc past the Wooden Soldiers, looking back. The Homelands story had Boy Blue just strolling through everything. I want the protagonists to win in the end, it's why I'm reading their book after all, but there needs to be a feeling they can lose, sometimes they even should lose for the story, but that just isn't happening with Fables. They say something is big and horrible and they can't win, and then it's defeated without breaking a sweat. I miss the feel that they won't win, like in Animal Farm, or March of the Wooden Soldiers, before the book changed how it deals with conflict.

[scratchie]

Originally Posted by passer-by

That I can agree with. Otherwise I'm pretty much of the same mind as CYOTI.

Problem is, I think, that the March of the Wooden Soldiers gave us some rather sensible expectations as to how the big war should develop. If a battle like that was presented in such detail and came out to be so dangerous for the Fables, then the war itself should have been on an even larger scale, including in terms of the number of issues.

Bingo. Between March of the Wooden Soldiers and The Good Prince, I was certainly expecting a little more of THE BIG WAR WITH THE EMPIRE than three issues of the good guys stomping the bad guys.

Even Boy Blue's fate seemed undermined by the lack of suspense about the whole story.

And as Vazel pointed out, the Literals crossover killed any momentum that might have remained at that point. It was cute, but the whole high-concept of "These are the characters who write the story for the other characters" seemed very thinly developed -- especially for a writer with Willingham's love of stories -- and the campy Jack of Fables edge to it seemed to further undermine the supposed seriousness of the war story.

Just a disappointing six months or so across the board. I'm still reading, but with nowhere near the level of anticipation I had before.