Secret Invasion - Unexplained

[jackolover]

1. The Skrulls convinced the general Population that the heroes had ruined the world for normal people, by their propaganda in SI #5. It was a common theme, and demonstrators appeared, caning Nick Fury as the problem. I think this baggage of the Skrulls argument, is why the government was so eager to replace the super heroes, because the apparant truth of the Skrulls argument, convinced them?

2. Where did Maria Hill go to during the SI, after she flew off the Helicarrier in SI #6? She doesn't reappear again until IIM #8 and MA #20.

3. How did Norman Osborn know that Captain Mar-vell was a Skrull, made to think he was human? There was no book that showed the TBolts uncovering any Skrull impersonators, so how could he guess what Captain Mar-vell was? The only people who knew were maybe Stark and that SHIELD agent who Marv befriended. AIM and HYDRA had been infiltrated, so they supplied the Skrulls with Trucks to ferry around a super Skrull, and, one Skrull had a HYDRA logo on it. Was Osborn cooperating with the Skrull, and then he turned reverse traitor on them?

[agrich]

Originally Posted by jackolover

There was no book that showed the TBolts uncovering any Skrull impersonators, so how could he guess what Captain Mar-vell was? The only people who knew were maybe Stark and that SHIELD agent who Marv befriended.

I think it's plausible that as head of the Thunderbolts Osborn could gain access to any information Stark or a SHIELD agent had.

[jackolover]

Originally Posted by agrich

I think it's plausible that as head of the Thunderbolts Osborn could gain access to any information Stark or a SHIELD agent had.

Stark kept the Electra Skrull secret even from his own Mighty Avengers team mates. What may have happened is that during the Ms. Marvel Skrull incident, the SHIELD agents who were involved in the arrest of the two Carols, may have leaked some information, or, had to report it, despite Stark. But by that time, Skrulls were in all levels of government, teams and private organizations, like AIM. Skrulls could have quietened down any leaks.

[Make Mine Mar-Vell]

As counterproductive as this concept may be, Captain Marvel wasn't supposed to do as well as it did...you know when we were all led to believe it was the real Mar-Vell, even 10 months after the Return one shot.

However, it did, and there are many unanswered questions. Almost as if Reed's ideas didn't fit in with the status quo, and how strangely well this character was getting over with a new audience (and appeared briefly to actually get a shot), I have no idea.

Maybe it's the coming back from the dead thing, maybe it's the suit, maybe it's the original crux of the story, I dunno, maybe all of the above.

Excellent observation, my friend. For a dead hero, he certainly refuses to die.

Kindest Regards

[Hindsight lad]

Why did the Skrulls replace people over the course of years, in a careful, calculated manner, if the bulk of their plan mostly boiled down to "Let's blow up all the major cities." ?

Really, that takes like five minutes.

Hindsight lad

[cougarbjones]

At some point, Norman Osborn stole info from Deadpool and that's how he got the kill shot. I didn't find that out until it was mentioned in Dark Reign.

[Hawk in Darkness]

Osborn got that information by hoodwinking Deadpool. Osborn posed as Fury and hired Deadpool to infiltrate the Skrulls to get the info. Then, Osborn refused to pay gool ole Wade, which is why Deadpool got so angry and attacked Osoborn's tower, to get what he was owed.

[dabig2]

Originally Posted by Hindsight lad

Why did the Skrulls replace people over the course of years, in a careful, calculated manner, if the bulk of their plan mostly boiled down to "Let's blow up all the major cities." ?

Really, that takes like five minutes.

Hindsight lad

I thought the entire event was a failure. The skrulls were completely inane. What a poor showing by a race that was waging intergalactic war when humanity was still living in caves throwing spears and feces at each other. Anyone on this forum could've come up with better plans and subterfuge.

It's a shame marvel prides itself so much on reality. Because otherwise they could've easily had the President as a skrull and most of our government. Talk about demoralizing when you find out the skrulls have been running your entire government for at least 5-10 years.

And another thing, what was the point of the Secret Warriors again? Fury was so adamant on finding unknowns to battle the skrulls, but did they do anything substantial during the war other than teleporting in to save the young avengers? What was the big deal there again?

[The Crime Dentist]

Originally Posted by dabig2

I thought the entire event was a failure. The skrulls were completely inane. What a poor showing by a race that was waging intergalactic war when humanity was still living in caves throwing spears and feces at each other. Anyone on this forum could've come up with better plans and subterfuge.

I agree, I think it was Marvel's worst event of the decade by a good margin - their other ones have all been pretty good but SI just kind of spun its wheels. Fortunately, I've found Dark Reign to be worthwhile.

And another thing, what was the point of the Secret Warriors again? Fury was so adamant on finding unknowns to battle the skrulls, but did they do anything substantial during the war other than teleporting in to save the young avengers? What was the big deal there again?

I think the Secret Warriors series itself gives their reason for being more than SI does. Fury didn't know what, but he knew there was something crazy going on, and it turned out to be Hydra being bigger than anybody ever thought.

Fury was also pretty much a fugitive and couldn't accomplish anything with his old partners because he knew he couldn't trust anybody who had a reason to be involved in the espionage or super community. If he wanted to continue operating and using anybody other than himself, he had to use the caterpillar file.

[Make Mine Mar-Vell]

My gut has always told me that the Secret Invasion could have, and should have been a huge event with ramifications that would be felt throughout Marveldom's future.

In this event laden (overarc- which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it can be great if managed well) time, this was the event that was supposed to link Civil War to the Dark Reign.

Here's a RED FLAG I noticed early on: The story's alleged hero who showed up controversially, then ignored for almost a year, Mar-Vell, was clipped just as it was getting started, and subsequently, the writing of the invasion suffered as well, whether or not that has to do with the handling of The Mar-Vell, I don't know. Either way, it started out promising but they pulled the plug for whatever reason.

I don't want to ramble, but here's a discussion I stumbled across that Reed lets us in on what his plans may have been.

Apparently, Captain Marvel (he almost doesn't need the name) Mar-Vell, on limited time was proposed to end the Civil War by defeating ALL of the Avengers + etc, as if to say "What the hell are you guys doing?" + etc.

Eventually colmenating in a fight between Original Marv and Sentry and defeating the invasion, however, and this is just a reader's logical guess-timation, either a.) they didn't think it would be a hit (meaning the Captain Marvel series) or b.) it got in the way of other plans (or egos) or both.

I realize it's more than Mar-Vell here, but it is very relevant to topic, and Marvel, for whatever reason refuses to back ANY of it's Captain Marvels in the long stretch.

Think about it, Mar-Vell was actually the "comeback" character that meant something, I mean that company regardless.

Perhaps, they will take note, ugh, it's such a good story, why not?

Anyway, that's just my take on it. Read it see what you think.

Take Care
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboar...d.php?t=148547

[JurassicParkIsAnAwesomeMovie]

Originally Posted by Hindsight lad

Why did the Skrulls replace people over the course of years, in a careful, calculated manner, if the bulk of their plan mostly boiled down to "Let's blow up all the major cities." ?

Really, that takes like five minutes.

Hindsight lad

Yup this didn't make any sense at all. Secret Invasion had so much potential, but it let me and a lot of other fans down with poor execution.

[Sabrinaset]

Originally Posted by Hindsight lad

Why did the Skrulls replace people over the course of years, in a careful, calculated manner, if the bulk of their plan mostly boiled down to "Let's blow up all the major cities." ?

Really, that takes like five minutes.

Hindsight lad

Because the majority of the event was written and planned by Bendis instead of someone with the kind of military training you could get surfing Wikipedia for five minutes.

[seekquaze]

Originally Posted by jackolover

1. The Skrulls convinced the general Population that the heroes had ruined the world for normal people, by their propaganda in SI #5. It was a common theme, and demonstrators appeared, caning Nick Fury as the problem. I think this baggage of the Skrulls argument, is why the government was so eager to replace the super heroes, because the apparant truth of the Skrulls argument, convinced them?

I don't think this holds water. Thing is they did not convince the general population. Sending in armies and shooting at anything that moves is rarely a good way to do that. All we were shown they convinced were a few people who tended to be very anti-establishment in any form and they were quickly UNCONVINCED when the Skrulls started shooting at them.

The government was so eager to replace superheroes because it wanted an army of superhumans at its disposal and for years the heroes had both acted as a check on the government's power by being a counter power and by guys like Nick Fury, Tony Stark, and Reed Richards having too much of a conscious to use superhumans the way people like Gyrich think they should be used.

That and at the time superheroes were a convenient scapegoat for problems and Osborn was the hero of the moment for getting a lucky shot. If he hadn't killed the Skrull queen Wolverine would have done it. In the last issues of She-Hulk they stated the public has pretty much forgotten about Stamford.

Originally Posted by jackolover

3. How did Norman Osborn know that Captain Mar-vell was a Skrull, made to think he was human? There was no book that showed the TBolts uncovering any Skrull impersonators, so how could he guess what Captain Mar-vell was? The only people who knew were maybe Stark and that SHIELD agent who Marv befriended. AIM and HYDRA had been infiltrated, so they supplied the Skrulls with Trucks to ferry around a super Skrull, and, one Skrull had a HYDRA logo on it. Was Osborn cooperating with the Skrull, and then he turned reverse traitor on them?

Assuming Osborn knew anything about Mar-vell it was an easy guess he was a skrull. Marv-vell is a Kree who are mortal enemies of the Skrulls. Mar-vell has protected Earth from the Skrull invasions in the past. So, he has no reason to be helping them. Add on that the Skrulls have replaced superhumans around the planet it is easy to suspect they have done so with one long thought dead.

Originally Posted by Hindsight lad

Why did the Skrulls replace people over the course of years, in a careful, calculated manner, if the bulk of their plan mostly boiled down to "Let's blow up all the major cities." ?

Really, that takes like five minutes.

Hindsight lad

The Invasion was done in typically Skrull fashion. The Skrulls have in the past shown themselves to be a highly prideful race that likes to think of itself as warriors. To satisfy both their pride and "warrior code" they have to crush the enemies in person by letting them know it is the Skrulls. Add on to this a religious zealotry of the inevitability of victory and wanting to die in battle for a religious cause and you have what should be a military battle.

Basic Skrull strategies seems to call for infiltration of key individuals to get key secrets and hamper any effective defense. Then you launch a massive invasion using overwhelming numbers, terror, technology, etc. while taking down defenses to conquer the planet before any effective defense can be mounted.

This worked at first. The problem was Skrull arrogance led them to toy around with the Avengers instead of killing them. Their pride and eagerness to die in battle made them careless and underestimate their enemy. They wanted the Earth intact so they did not do an orbital bombardment like they have done to other planets. They lacked the numbers to hold the planet if anything is their battle plan when wrong or required more elsewhere.

So, in theory their plan would have worked, but because they thought their victory was preordained they underestimated their enemy more than usual plus the complexity of waging war on Earth with all of its superhumans, demon, and other dimensional beings with an interest in it combined with lack of numbers cost them their victory.

Originally Posted by dabig2

And another thing, what was the point of the Secret Warriors again? Fury was so adamant on finding unknowns to battle the skrulls, but did they do anything substantial during the war other than teleporting in to save the young avengers? What was the big deal there again?

Fury knew something was up, but didn't know for sure so he selected a crew that was unlikely to be targeted so he could bunker down and wait for whatever was going to happen happen to then wage a gurellia war. Fury was planning for more long term like we are seeing now. If the Skrulls had won they would have been stuck in a gurellia war with Fury.

Originally Posted by Make Mine Mar-Vell

Here's a RED FLAG I noticed early on: The story's alleged hero who showed up controversially, then ignored for almost a year, Mar-Vell, was clipped just as it was getting started, and subsequently, the writing of the invasion suffered as well, whether or not that has to do with the handling of The Mar-Vell, I don't know. Either way, it started out promising but they pulled the plug for whatever reason.

It was Bendis's writing. He originally wanted the event to be much smaller. That and in the past he has shown trouble with both spacing of events, handling very large casts of characters, and handling stories above street level.

Originally Posted by Make Mine Mar-Vell

Apparently, Captain Marvel (he almost doesn't need the name) Mar-Vell, on limited time was proposed to end the Civil War by defeating ALL of the Avengers + etc, as if to say "What the hell are you guys doing?" + etc.

Like most first drafts the rough draft is almost totally changed by the time the story is written. Tom Breevort once posted the original draft of World War Hulk and it was almost totally different from the one we got. The same with the Loki mini and Eternals mini each done a few years back. Typically, it is for the better as either the original draft is too long or has story elements the majority of fans would have even more trouble with then the versions we get. The original WWH would have had Korg lift Thor's hammer among other things. The Eternals version would have been longer nad revealed things about the Celestials I doubt many people would accept. It sounds like this original Civil War ending you are stating would have favored Mar-vell too much.

[Make Mine Mar-Vell]

Did I forget to mention that the Mar-Vell "Captain Marvel" mini series did High Numbers?

Oh I'm sorry, I must've forgot...Captain Marvel 1-5 in 2008 did unexpectedly high numbers sales wise, even with the lack of corporate promotion and the 10 month period between Civil War: The Return the Nobember 14, 2008 release of Captain Marvel, which did not carry the Secret Invasion header until the near completion of the mini series by Brian Reed and Lee Weeks. For whatever it's worth.

Anyways, I always thought that the Secret Invasion story should have been anchored by somebody we've always known to have been a Skrull invader the entire time, not a legendary hero just brought back to do so, and especially not in this case because those who do the research know that this character was just beginning to come into it's own, and was perhaps ahead of it's time.

Still, though, for impact it should be someone we all "trust" as readers. Mar-Vell, like him or not, fits that bill, but his lengthy absence and questionable "kill off" by creative, no matter how moving it was, does not make sense to be "that guy", it should be someone else, someone who didn't start the "comeback trend" of comics.

I hope that made sense, if not I'll explain later or edit.

What I'm saying is the Secret Invasion has more impact with someone we know who has always been there retcon or not, being a sleeper agent rather than tearing into a sincere hero comeback story that is not contrived to counteract the evil of the event itself.

[jackolover]

Originally Posted by seekquaze

I don't think this holds water. Thing is they did not convince the general population. Sending in armies and shooting at anything that moves is rarely a good way to do that. All we were shown they convinced were a few people who tended to be very anti-establishment in any form and they were quickly UNCONVINCED when the Skrulls started shooting at them.

The government was so eager to replace superheroes because it wanted an army of superhumans at its disposal and for years the heroes had both acted as a check on the government's power by being a counter power and by guys like Nick Fury, Tony Stark, and Reed Richards having too much of a conscious to use superhumans the way people like Gyrich think they should be used.

That and at the time superheroes were a convenient scapegoat for problems and Osborn was the hero of the moment for getting a lucky shot. If he hadn't killed the Skrull queen Wolverine would have done it. In the last issues of She-Hulk they stated the public has pretty much forgotten about Stamford. .

I still saw a crowd beating up on Spider-Man in the LIST, and it had remnants of the Skrull conditioning in their abuse. There's no reason that the beurocrats hadn't been convinced of the same thing.

What you say about the governments intensions to replace heroes with their own army, because heroes wouldn't take orders, also rings true, but it is convenient to have the Skrull claims, that super heroes have been the bane of all humanities problems since they arrived. Bush has had it in for super heroes, and when the Skrulls mentioned it too, he would tend to agree with it. Sometimes truisms have a way of being convincing.

Originally Posted by seekquaze

Assuming Osborn knew anything about Mar-vell it was an easy guess he was a skrull. Marv-vell is a Kree who are mortal enemies of the Skrulls. Mar-vell has protected Earth from the Skrull invasions in the past. So, he has no reason to be helping them. Add on that the Skrulls have replaced superhumans around the planet it is easy to suspect they have done so with one long thought dead..

Whether Osborn knew anything about some obscure dead hero is irrelevant, and whether he would show up suddenly should have somehow connected him to Skrulls, is a rather big leap, as heroes are resurrected on a daily basis. Osborn knew NOTHING about the invasion. The attack started, and there was Cap Marv. Osborn had no intel on what was happening around any other part of the country, or the world. For all Osborn knew, a dead hero just arrived, and went a little crazy. There was no reason to connect him with Skrulls by any shape or form, unless he had some forward knowledge that an Invasion was imminant

Originally Posted by seekquaze

The Invasion was done in typically Skrull fashion. The Skrulls have in the past shown themselves to be a highly prideful race that likes to think of itself as warriors. To satisfy both their pride and "warrior code" they have to crush the enemies in person by letting them know it is the Skrulls. Add on to this a religious zealotry of the inevitability of victory and wanting to die in battle for a religious cause and you have what should be a military battle.

Basic Skrull strategies seems to call for infiltration of key individuals to get key secrets and hamper any effective defense. Then you launch a massive invasion using overwhelming numbers, terror, technology, etc. while taking down defenses to conquer the planet before any effective defense can be mounted.

This worked at first. The problem was Skrull arrogance led them to toy around with the Avengers instead of killing them. Their pride and eagerness to die in battle made them careless and underestimate their enemy. They wanted the Earth intact so they did not do an orbital bombardment like they have done to other planets. They lacked the numbers to hold the planet if anything is their battle plan when wrong or required more elsewhere.

So, in theory their plan would have worked, but because they thought their victory was preordained they underestimated their enemy more than usual plus the complexity of waging war on Earth with all of its superhumans, demon, and other dimensional beings with an interest in it combined with lack of numbers cost them their victory..

When I re-read the SI trade, it started out with the Dugan prologue, where all the SHIELD agents were bitter at Caps death, and blaming it on Fury for leaving SHIELD in the lerch. Dugan overheard, and didn't disagree, and threw a bottle into the newscreen, doing the story. Dugan got up and went home to his boathouse, and started crying about Cap being dead, and what a horror that was.

Then you compound that feeling, a few minutes later, as a Skrull Contessa stands over him and tells him , "Don't worry. He loves you", and changes from a female into Dugan, himself, before his eyes, and you get some inkling of the terror of that kind of Infiltration being, maybe, the cause of Caps death. Dugan is then dragged off into a Skrull compound, flown off world and experimented on. Iron Man is infected by a virus in some remote area he can't get out of, and a shipload of super heroes arrives that is convinced they are the true identities, even as they are killed, later on. The Black Widows answer to all this is to kill anyone she meets, and you see what the heroes were faced with. According to the Avengers, everyone was a Skrull on the Planet, until proven otherwise, so they had nowhere to go and nothing to do about it. It was the Ultimate defeat of powered heroes because it meant they had to kill everybody and they couldn't trust any government bodies, all the while as the Skrulls did a door to door of the Planet.

The error was in not monitoring the Avengers as they slowly degenerated into a disorganised rabble and killed each other. That should have been the priority. When it was learned that Reed Richards escaped, and that this was coincidentally covered by the attack of Cap Marv of the hovering armada, the Skrulls should have followed that vessel Reed was on and obliterated it.

When Veranke returned to Camp Hammond and reported these two findings, her Captain complained to her that she had made a grave error, but she waved it away as a minor distraction to be dealt with. This escalated as Wakanda and Fury arrived on the horizon as further setbacks, because these were elements that were out of the Skrulls control now. Wakanda as a separate battle front, and Fury as a guerilla force on the loose.

By the time Thor arrived in NY and challenged the Skrulls, the game was on a down slide, heading for a suicide of the Skrulls, and triggering the Negative Zone bomb by Dugan.