Phoenix Confusion

[aenirin]

Well, it has been a while since I read the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas, but I was always confused by the original concept of the Phoenix and its later incarnations.

If I remember correctly, the original saga had the Phoenix as a kind of split personality of Jean Grey's. The greatest totality of her powers. Not a separate entity. However, later on it was claimed to have been an entity that made a copy of her and lived out a life of its own as a mortal. Still later, it was revealed that the entity was a initially drawn to earth by Feron and torn asunder in a mystic battle. It was this entity that bonded with Rachel Summers. I haven't read the newer issues of the X-books, but I do know that Jean has been back from the dead several times as Phoenix.

Can anybody give me a comprehensive explanation of the true mythos of this character?

[Havok83]

Originally Posted by aenirin

Well, it has been a while since I read the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas, but I was always confused by the original concept of the Phoenix and its later incarnations.

If I remember correctly, the original saga had the Phoenix as a kind of split personality of Jean Grey's. The greatest totality of her powers. Not a separate entity. However, later on it was claimed to have been an entity that made a copy of her and lived out a life of its own as a mortal. Still later, it was revealed that the entity was a initially drawn to earth by Feron and torn asunder in a mystic battle. It was this entity that bonded with Rachel Summers. I haven't read the newer issues of the X-books, but I do know that Jean has been back from the dead several times as Phoenix.

Can anybody give me a comprehensive explanation of the true mythos of this character?

The Phoenix myhtology is the biggest clusterf--k that the X-men have had. Its something that has been changed, retconned, ammended, etc... since it was first introduced. The way I choose to understand it is that the Phoenix is a cosmic entity. It has existed for long before Jean and will exist after her. It has had several different hosts but theres something about her specific physiology that makes her the perfect host. It is in its purest, most powerful form when bonded to her which is why it keeps finding its way back to her.

When Jean attempted to fly the spacecraft way back in UXM, her body was badly damaged and so she was placed in a coccoon underneath the Jamaica Bay where it crashed. The Phoenix Force took on her form and lived her life up until it killed itself. Eventually after Jean was resurrected, the memories that Phoenix had gained while in her form were given to her. She would go for years without any trace of the PF, only taking on the name and costume. Sometime however during Morrison's run, the entity had rebonded with Jean and remained with her until her death at the end of Planet X. It resurrected her dead body in the mini series Endsong, and she left to go to the White Hot Room and collected the missing Phoenix fragments.

This is a VERY abbreviated version bc it gets more complex and I left a lot out. If you have any further questions just ask and Im sure myself or anyone else would be glad to fill in the blanks

[Henry T.]

Originally Posted by aenirin

Well, it has been a while since I read the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas, but I was always confused by the original concept of the Phoenix and its later incarnations.

If I remember correctly, the original saga had the Phoenix as a kind of split personality of Jean Grey's. The greatest totality of her powers. Not a separate entity. However, later on it was claimed to have been an entity that made a copy of her and lived out a life of its own as a mortal. Still later, it was revealed that the entity was a initially drawn to earth by Feron and torn asunder in a mystic battle. It was this entity that bonded with Rachel Summers. I haven't read the newer issues of the X-books, but I do know that Jean has been back from the dead several times as Phoenix.

Can anybody give me a comprehensive explanation of the true mythos of this character?

It goes something like this.... warning: crazy long post which may or may not induce headache.

Originally the Phoenix was simply Jean's powers at their peak and a somewhat divergent personality/persona.

Then it became a force of creation/passion that Jean had bonded with. Jean and this force had become symbiotes and this merging created Phoenix.

Then it began a cosmic entity that had replaced Jean to feel human sensations. Jean either imbued herself onto the force or it took a portion of her mind/consciousness.

Then Claremont through the Classic Backstories said that Jean had given the Phoenix force its "consciousness and form", that she had been connected to it since childhood, and that she wasn't replaced but that her mind had merged with the force and transferred to a new body that it had created for her. She left a spark of her soul in her original body in the cocoon just in case she needed it later. He had Death tell Jean as White Phoenix that the force belonged to her and her children.

But then Davis ignored the Classic Backstories and established that it was Feron that had given the Phoenix its form and consciousness. He also created a corrupt part of the Phoenix force which was the Anti-Phoenix.

Later it was said that the Phoenix got its consciousness from the future unborn.

In Inferno, Jean reabsorbed the part of her that the Phoenix force had taken.

Later on Seagle and then Claremont in Revolution portrayed the Phoenix mostly in terms of Jean's growing power again.

Then Morrison tried to combine all Phoenix continuities. He established the Phoenix both as a mutation/ultimate potential and a higher cosmic force/consciousness. Phoenix avatars are those with mutations for psychic godhood and the Phoenix Consciousness which connects to them through the mind tries to compel them to do Phoenix Work (burning or destroying as needed in the universe). Morrison created the Phoenix Corp (Jean being a White Phoenix of the Crown) which operated from the White Hot Room in the M'Kraan Crystal.

In End of Greys, Claremont also portrayed the Phoenix as being tied to Jean and Rachel's genetic mutations and family line.

In Phoenix Endsong, Pak wrote the Phoenix as a fragmented part of Jean's mind.

In Phoenix Warong, Pak wrote the Phoenix as a cosmic entity obeying cosmic rules but hinted that it may just be Jean gone insane.

Brubaker wrote the Phoenix as a cosmic force that likes certain people and can be passed down through family lines. He also created the blue shadow-echo of the Phoenix force.

Claremont, Niceiza, Morrison, and Pak have all used Jean's White Phoenix status. Rachel of course has been referred to as the daughter of the Phoenix, Baby Phoenix, Kid-Phoenix, and the Starchilde.

For Rachel, the Phoenix has been written as a part of her genetic powers, as something she inherited from Jean, a force that has bonded to her and which she wields, and as an entity that was drawn to her spiritual strength and allowed her to draw from its power.

[aenirin]

Aha! So it was Col. Mustard in the library with the candlestick!

Thanks for the help you guys. It is as confusing as I thought. I can't believe, in more than thirty years, Marvel hasn't tried to tie it all together. I suppose they leave it open to make any story possible.

I started reading comics in '92 (I was eight) and didn't hear of the Phoenix until the X-Men cartoon. So I kind of have that story stuck in my head. It actually makes far more sense than the comic book.

[Havok83]

Originally Posted by aenirin

Aha! So it was Col. Mustard in the library with the candlestick!

Thanks for the help you guys. It is as confusing as I thought. I can't believe, in more than thirty years, Marvel hasn't tried to tie it all together. I suppose they leave it open to make any story possible.

I started reading comics in '92 (I was eight) and didn't hear of the Phoenix until the X-Men cartoon. So I kind of have that story stuck in my head. It actually makes far more sense than the comic book.

The thing is Marvel has tried to tie it together but subsequent writers come in and try to add their own take to it, which only serves to complicate things more

[The Thunderbird]

The Phoenix's continuity =



It would benefit Jean Grey's character if she were to be removed from the concept for good and simply be written as a caring girl next door like she was in the 90s mixed with with the slightly spice and passion she had as Phoenix in the 70s.

[AstonishingXMan]

I believe this:

Jean was always Phoenix. She's the most powerful mutant ever.

The "killer firebird" in space is a manifestation of Jean's powers. It was released, went into space, killed a planet, took over Jean. She became the Phoenix. Dark Phoenix Saga happened. Before they went to the moon, Phoenix/Jean created a "backup" copy under the bay in NY. Jean died on the moon. The copy was ressurected. She started manifesting the powers again in Uncanny 340+ and became Phoenix again with Morrison's run. She's dead now.

[The Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by AstonishingXMan

I believe this:

Jean was always Phoenix. She's the most powerful mutant ever.

The "killer firebird" in space is a manifestation of Jean's powers. It was released, went into space, killed a planet, took over Jean. She became the Phoenix. Dark Phoenix Saga happened. Before they went to the moon, Phoenix/Jean created a "backup" copy under the bay in NY. Jean died on the moon. The copy was ressurected. She started manifesting the powers again in Uncanny 340+ and became Phoenix again with Morrison's run. She's dead now.

I prefer that Jean simply created a new body in the shuttle simply for a test, transferred to that body and put the old one in Jamaica Bay, and erased her memories of her experiences as Phoenix between death and resurrection.

[ZNOP]

Originally Posted by The Thunderbird

I prefer that Jean simply created a new body in the shuttle simply for a test, transferred to that body and put the old one in Jamaica Bay, and erased her memories of her experiences as Phoenix between death and resurrection.

I concur... That symmetrical simpleness should be canon... It's that good

[jarrod]

A little sidenote, but the Anti-Phoenix seen in Excalibur wasn't a fragment of Jean, it was a fragment of Feron's ancestor's manifestation that Necrom separated and sealed away.

[ZNOP]

Originally Posted by aenirin

If I remember correctly, the original saga had the Phoenix as a kind of split personality of Jean Grey's. The greatest totality of her powers. Not a separate entity. However, later on it was claimed to have been an entity that made a copy of her and lived out a life of its own as a mortal. Still later, it was revealed that the entity was a initially drawn to earth by Feron and torn asunder in a mystic battle. It was this entity that bonded with Rachel Summers. I haven't read the newer issues of the X-books, but I do know that Jean has been back from the dead several times as Phoenix.

UX-Men #199, and Excalibur #61? Hmmmm.... Wouldn't those issues alone contradict the existence of a Phoenix Corps? I, mean besides the fact that "Death" told Jean that the Phoenix Force would be passed down to her descendants... Quire isn't a descendant of Jean's.

Originally Posted by jarrod

A little sidenote, but the Anti-Phoenix seen in Excalibur wasn't a fragment of Jean, it was a fragment of Feron's ancestor's manifestation that Necrom separated and sealed away.

Not many readers are going to back that up no matter how true it is It would lead to all kinds of continuity/reality discrepancies. Not to mention there's Giraud (a baseline human) who in GOTG is stated to be the ninth sentient being since Jean Grey to host the Phoenix Force.

[alf_to_the_rescue]

Phoenix has always been jean. Simples.

[Flâneur]

A number of being have exhibited the Phoenix phenomenon, Jean in all of her incarnations is one of these beings and, like all past and future Phoenix beings, she currently exists within the White Hot Room.

The cocoon which Jean woke from in Fantastic Four, before X-Factor, was simply the mechanism of her rebirth which, if disrupted, results in a Phoenix which is not whole much like we saw in Morrison's final arc. There were no cosmic clones.

[ZNOP]

Originally Posted by Flâneur

The cocoon which Jean woke from in Fantastic Four, before X-Factor, was simply the mechanism of her rebirth which, if disrupted, results in a Phoenix which is not whole much like we saw in Morrison's final arc. There were no cosmic clones.

Well, then... If Jean Grey was in

who (UX-Men #135 ) consumed the D'Bari star and destroyed it's entire solar system?

[Flâneur]

Originally Posted by ZNOP

Well, then... If Jean Grey was in

who (UX-Men #135 ) consumed the D'Bari star and destroyed it's entire solar system?

Jean.

Did it really take you 11 days to come up with that?