I see and hear homophobia and do not like it one bit

[Arrogantcur]

(Cross posted to my LiveJournal.)

Last night I went to see "The Invention of Lying" with my SO. It's a good movie and you really ought to see it.

(That is not where I saw or heard anything homophobic. This is just the beginning of my story.)

The night before, I had finally seen "Milk", which if you don't know is about Harvey Milk. She had seen that movie too, so we wound up talking about that and about gay rights and so on in addition to talking about the movie we'd just seen after we got out of the theatre.

One of the things I had said was that it would be good if people talked to one another more and tried to make peace instead of clinging to an "us vs. them" mentality. I felt that as long as you had one group trying to change the world into the kind of world they want to live in over the objections of the other group, then regardless of who wins you will have a lot of people who are unhappy and angry and feel beaten down, and who instead of accepting things as they are will be wanting to get revenge and will jump at the first opportunity to do so.

For example, conservatives in the U.S. around the turn of the century felt persecuted. Whether they actually were is another story, but they thought they were. They thought they had been during the Clinton years. And so, when the Bush years began, they wanted some payback. They didn't care how you or I or any other liberal might feel, because in their eyes we never cared about how they felt; we just wanted to push our agenda through. So they pushed their agenda through during the time that the Republicans had control of all three branches of government. Which in turn made liberals angry, and so when the Democrats regained control of Congress and then when Barack Obama was elected, *we* wanted payback. We wanted to push our agenda through. Hell, I've said as much in the past, words to the effect of "Just do the right thing, change the law into what it should be, and who gives a fuck how conservatives feel about it?" But maybe I was wrong.

For another example: after World War One, the defeated country of Germany was left for dead. They were made to feel like losers. Times were very hard in Germany after WWI, but nobody outside of Germany cared. They had been the enemy, so they deserved it. This, naturally, made Germans very frustrated and angry. They wanted to be strong and powerful again, they were tired of their wretched existence, and thus when Adolf Hitler came along and promised them power and glory they were happy to vote for him. You know what happened after that. By contrast, after World War Two the Allies helped to rebuild Germany, helped the country and its people recover. they didn't leave it for dead. As a result, Germany became pretty prosperous, the German people were happy, and there was none of the kind of frustration and anger that followed the First World War.

So, I was thinking and saying, if we win should we not be magnanimous in victory? Instead of treating the struggle for gay rights such as the right to marry as a war with a winner and loser, wouldn't it be better if we tried to convince the homophobic people that they had nothing to fear? That we (I say "we" because I'm bi, or something like it; long story for another time) are not a threat to them or anything they hold dear? That their preconceptions of us, the things they assume, aren't necessarily true? That we can talk things out and, eventually, come to a mutually acceptable understanding?

As if fate decided to remind me that this wouldn't be easy, the train that I caught back to Oakville was pretty crowded. There had just been a Leafs game, after all, and a lot of fans were waiting to catch the same one I was so they could get back home. I wound up sitting near this group of guys and trying to read my book. It wasn't long before I realized it had been a mistake to sit there, because at least some of these guys were drunk, and they were loud drunks, and they were mean drunks. Some of them were Colorado Avalanche fans. Some of them were Leafs fans. And one of them was just an asshole. They were insulting one another and laughing at one another or at the things somebody on their side said to somebody on the other side, and I honestly didn't know whether a fight was going to break out if one of them pushed one of the others too far. I actually would've been glad if it had, because then maybe they would have shut the hell up or been kicked off the train. But instead I had to listen to them calling one another gay, particularly the guy who was just an asshole. Some examples: "Get away from me, you fruit loop!" "Your ass has taken even more punishment than the Leafs!" and the worst was after one of these guys said the asshole guy was homophobic and he said "Hey, I like faggots fine...dead!" Somebody else added "Or in jail."

There were at least six guys altogether, so it would've been stupid for me to say anything, but I wanted to.

I still think that there are some homophobes who actually can be reasoned with, but guys like the ones I had to listen to on the train ride home last night? Ought to just fucking die.

[jamesfreeman]

Originally Posted by Arrogantcur

(Cross posted to my LiveJournal.)

Last night I went to see "The Invention of Lying" with my SO. It's a good movie and you really ought to see it.

(That is not where I saw or heard anything homophobic. This is just the beginning of my story.)

The night before, I had finally seen "Milk", which if you don't know is about Harvey Milk. She had seen that movie too, so we wound up talking about that and about gay rights and so on in addition to talking about the movie we'd just seen after we got out of the theatre.

One of the things I had said was that it would be good if people talked to one another more and tried to make peace instead of clinging to an "us vs. them" mentality. I felt that as long as you had one group trying to change the world into the kind of world they want to live in over the objections of the other group, then regardless of who wins you will have a lot of people who are unhappy and angry and feel beaten down, and who instead of accepting things as they are will be wanting to get revenge and will jump at the first opportunity to do so.

For example, conservatives in the U.S. around the turn of the century felt persecuted. Whether they actually were is another story, but they thought they were. They thought they had been during the Clinton years. And so, when the Bush years began, they wanted some payback. They didn't care how you or I or any other liberal might feel, because in their eyes we never cared about how they felt; we just wanted to push our agenda through. So they pushed their agenda through during the time that the Republicans had control of all three branches of government. Which in turn made liberals angry, and so when the Democrats regained control of Congress and then when Barack Obama was elected, *we* wanted payback. We wanted to push our agenda through. Hell, I've said as much in the past, words to the effect of "Just do the right thing, change the law into what it should be, and who gives a fuck how conservatives feel about it?" But maybe I was wrong.

For another example: after World War One, the defeated country of Germany was left for dead. They were made to feel like losers. Times were very hard in Germany after WWI, but nobody outside of Germany cared. They had been the enemy, so they deserved it. This, naturally, made Germans very frustrated and angry. They wanted to be strong and powerful again, they were tired of their wretched existence, and thus when Adolf Hitler came along and promised them power and glory they were happy to vote for him. You know what happened after that. By contrast, after World War Two the Allies helped to rebuild Germany, helped the country and its people recover. they didn't leave it for dead. As a result, Germany became pretty prosperous, the German people were happy, and there was none of the kind of frustration and anger that followed the First World War.

So, I was thinking and saying, if we win should we not be magnanimous in victory? Instead of treating the struggle for gay rights such as the right to marry as a war with a winner and loser, wouldn't it be better if we tried to convince the homophobic people that they had nothing to fear? That we (I say "we" because I'm bi, or something like it; long story for another time) are not a threat to them or anything they hold dear? That their preconceptions of us, the things they assume, aren't necessarily true? That we can talk things out and, eventually, come to a mutually acceptable understanding?

As if fate decided to remind me that this wouldn't be easy, the train that I caught back to Oakville was pretty crowded. There had just been a Leafs game, after all, and a lot of fans were waiting to catch the same one I was so they could get back home. I wound up sitting near this group of guys and trying to read my book. It wasn't long before I realized it had been a mistake to sit there, because at least some of these guys were drunk, and they were loud drunks, and they were mean drunks. Some of them were Colorado Avalanche fans. Some of them were Leafs fans. And one of them was just an asshole. They were insulting one another and laughing at one another or at the things somebody on their side said to somebody on the other side, and I honestly didn't know whether a fight was going to break out if one of them pushed one of the others too far. I actually would've been glad if it had, because then maybe they would have shut the hell up or been kicked off the train. But instead I had to listen to them calling one another gay, particularly the guy who was just an asshole. Some examples: "Get away from me, you fruit loop!" "Your ass has taken even more punishment than the Leafs!" and the worst was after one of these guys said the asshole guy was homophobic and he said "Hey, I like faggots fine...dead!" Somebody else added "Or in jail."

There were at least six guys altogether, so it would've been stupid for me to say anything, but I wanted to.

I still think that there are some homophobes who actually can be reasoned with, but guys like the ones I had to listen to on the train ride home last night? Ought to just fucking die.

Casual homophobia like that is sadly nothing new. Calling someone "gay" as an insult is pretty standard, and most people don't even think of it as being homophobic. For example, I have a lesbian British Lit teacher. She SNAPPED on a friend of mine last week because he jokingly insinuated another friend was gay in the middle of class. He didn't see it as doing anything wrong, and got pissed off afterwards.

It's just become too engrained in our everyday lexicon.

[king mob]

Someone liked the Invention of Lying?

Anyhow, this kind of shite is common and no matter how hard one tries to correct it, it's become rooted in culture. However that's no excuse to stand by and let it pass or not to get fucked off by it all.

[Arrogantcur]

Originally Posted by jamesfreeman

Casual homophobia like that is sadly nothing new. Calling someone "gay" as an insult is pretty standard, and most people don't even think of it as being homophobic. For example, I have a lesbian British Lit teacher. She SNAPPED on a friend of mine last week because he jokingly insinuated another friend was gay in the middle of class. He didn't see it as doing anything wrong, and got pissed off afterwards.

It's just become too engrained in our everyday lexicon.

I guess. I just hadn't heard any conversations like that in person for a real long time. I honestly thought that, at least in the area I live, we had moved past that. And I was really surprised at what the one guy said about liking gay people dead.

There was a bunch of other stuff said that wasn't as bad as that but which was worse than the other two things I quoted, but I don't remember it verbatim.

Originally Posted by king mob

Someone liked the Invention of Lying?

Loved it.

Anyhow, this kind of shite is common and no matter how hard one tries to correct it, it's become rooted in culture. However that's no excuse to stand by and let it pass or not to get fucked off by it all.

I don't know what I could've done. If I'd told them they were being douches, or said I was bi and didn't like what they were saying, or whatever, they would've verbally dogpiled on me and instead of just hearing what they thought of gay people I would've had to listen to them telling me what they thought of *me* for the rest of the train ride. The kind of snapping back and forth that they were doing is something I'm not good at, never have been. It's not something I'd enjoy, and I don't think it would've made a difference.

[LewisH]

There are always going to be ignorant, intolerant fuckwits no matter how much society as a whole grows up. It took thousands of years for humankind to figure out that enslaving your fellow man was a bad thing. It's going to take a few 100 more before we get to the point where "all men are created equal" is literal and truly accepted by everyone.

[FeminineMystique]

Originally Posted by Arrogantcur

I don't know what I could've done. If I'd told them they were being douches, or said I was bi and didn't like what they were saying, or whatever, they would've verbally dogpiled on me and instead of just hearing what they thought of gay people I would've had to listen to them telling me what they thought of *me* for the rest of the train ride. The kind of snapping back and forth that they were doing is something I'm not good at, never have been. It's not something I'd enjoy, and I don't think it would've made a difference.

Which is one of the reasons situations like that are so infuriating