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#1 | |
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Do you really think so?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
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Exerpt from the book "Republican Gomorrah
Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party" by Max Blumenthal, from thenation.com http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090921/blumenthal/3 Quote:
http://www.nationbooks.org/book/189/...can%20Gomorrah I'm not a big non-fiction reader, but I think I'll be checking this one out. Although, I know I'm likely to be saddened and enraged by this kind of stuff, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and read it anyway... in part because I'm hoping it's a good book to give to my parents (still trying to educate the parents, heh). There's some interesting stuff in the latter part of the excerpt about Oral Robert's University (specifically, about his sons) that I hadn't heard before, As to how this kid was "raised," and the "obedience" brainwashing at the Charter School of Excellence... it's the stuff of nightmares, to me. Horrible. Has anyone read this book yet? If so, what were your thoughts on it?
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Solaris The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted." ---Misty Lackey |
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#2 |
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Anger is an Energy
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, on Brookside, just up the road from Tejon.
Posts: 12,123
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A fascinating preview of what should be an excellent book.
My only complaint is sort of personal, and that’s Blumenthal making a reference to the “gospel of Colorado Springs”. Look I know that the north side of town is filled with those religious nuts, but they really are not who makes up the majority of people living here in the Springs. This town has an active arts community, a downtown filled with nightclubs, bars and music venues, one of the nations largest gay film festivals, Shakespeare in the park, one of the best library systems in the country and the annual decadence ball. When Colorado Springs made its deal with the devil, giving all of these religious groups tax breaks to get them to move here during the financial troubles of the late 1980’s, I wonder if the cities leaders had any idea what it would do to the towns reputation? Sorry to go so off topic, but it’s sort of weird living in a town that is known internationally for being the native homeland of bigoted, religious nutjobs everywhere, especially when the truth is so very different.
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- rick |
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#3 |
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Frear of Natuke
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 540
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terrifying.
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#4 | |
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Free at Last!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the woods
Posts: 7,279
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Quote:
Luckily for me, I asked far too many questions that the church couldn't answer and they finally gave up on making me a "Soldier for God". Then I came out to the family and was condemned to hell; which I find so far to be MUCH nicer than where I started.
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"In times of CRISIS, it's of utmost importance to always keep ones' head."- M. Antionette Dill Crockery Knoodle Jones-That Stillwell guy
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#5 | |
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Do you really think so?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
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Here's the blurb on the book:
Quote:
So while the excerpt is about this kid's upbringing and the damage it did, the book itself apparently covers a wider scope... but seeing how this kid was raised, and the "in the news" names like Dobson, Focus on the Family, ORU, etc. being so associated with that... it's like pulling back a blanket to expose and study the inner workings of the ant nest and finding that under its distasteful and "normalized" surface the ants swarm on a rotting carcass, and indulge in cannibalism on those ants who diverge from the hive mind. And *these * are some of the big players behind the "Christian" Conservative extreme within the Republican Party. What's interesting, in noting that, is that part of what the book covers is "how moderates have been systematically purged from party ranks"... and it's pretty much *exactly* like how, within the religion of these Christian Conservatives like the Pentacostal Evangelicals, people who are more moderate with their Christianity and/or question this extremism are chastised and, if they don't tow the line, purged from the religion. In other words, they took their religious fanaticism and harassment/purging tactics, and applied them to politics---so far with great success, in the Republican Party. But IMO, it's not just the fanaticism and tactics, it's also the money they bring to the table, because these fanatics are used to "supporting the cause" inside the church and donating/tithing a large amount of their money to the church---when the church says "support our candidate," the money pours in. And, as we all know, there's nothing like money to grease the wheels of the political machine, and to push the party in the direction you want it to go. Money + vocal fanatics with a solidarity of purpose... is a scary thing. And scary is their specialty... "Inspired by the work of psychologist Erich Fromm, who analyzed how the fear of freedom propels anxiety-ridden people into authoritarian settings," that statement underlines the *why* of all the fear and hate speech that comes from the Christian Political Right: feed the fears of the followers, and each time you do, you're reinforcing the fear of change they feel, and reinforcing the training to trust and obey WITHOUT QUESTION "authority"---the authority of the movement's leaders, the authority of the religious leaders (who often *are* the movement's leaders and/or at the right hand of the politicians and lobbyists and corporate sponsors). Which explains the "anti-tolerance" messages, the hate and fear messages, the call to force the rest of the country into lock-step with these folks' life agenda---by combining obeying God's authority with obeying their *own* authority, by then interpreting and deciding "what God wants" to their followers... these religious leaders truly have combined religion and politics... and of course they see nothing wrong with that, because it increases their power and authority. Frank Herbert hit the nail on the head with that one, about having religion and politics in the same cart, how it goes faster and faster in a headlong rush downhill until it goes out of control.
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Solaris The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted." ---Misty Lackey Last edited by Solaris; 09-23-2009 at 08:01 AM. |
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#6 | |
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Do you really think so?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
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Quote:
Hon, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm really glad you're out of it. And welcome to hell with the rest of us sinners---mojitos are served at 5, and the dancing starts at 7 (orgy optional).
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Solaris The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted." ---Misty Lackey |
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#7 | |
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Do you really think so?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
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Quote:
Makes you just want to kick the town leaders in the nuts, doesn't it?
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Solaris The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted." ---Misty Lackey |
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#8 | |
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Elder Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 23,964
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Quote:
Evangelists, believers in the joyous word of God, who have raised their children as evangelists... were worried they'd become hippies if they so much as encountered the concept. Now, I'd have thought if you're a true believer, you'd think your religion and the standards you taught your sprogs would be stronger than that. And I thought that early Christians - heck, Jesus Himself - went off and hung out with non-believers and sinners all the time. As I recall, it was the non-believers and sinners who became believers and not-sinners, Jesus wasn't the one who turned into a moneylender.
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"We must fight on!" "We'll die. We fight and we die, that's how it goes." "Then we die gloriously!" "There's an important word there, and it's not gloriously." - Only You Can Save Mankind |
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#9 | |
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Do you really think so?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
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Quote:
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Solaris The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted." ---Misty Lackey |
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#10 |
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Anger is an Energy
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, on Brookside, just up the road from Tejon.
Posts: 12,123
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And a few, more than others.
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- rick |
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#11 | |
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They call me Mr. Pip!
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 16,350
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Huckabee likes surrounding himself with nuts, doesn't he?
From today's Salon war room blog: Quote:
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My blog. We struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about; our very skins. It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given. - Desmond Tutu Getting married? Check http://www.fandgweddings.com/ |
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#12 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 1,361
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Quote:
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Current Pull List: Captain America, X-Factor, Ms Marvel, New Avengers, Avengers: The Initiative, Incredible Hercules, Invincible Iron Man, Wolverine: First Class, Guardians of the Galaxy, Incognito, Detective Comics, Booster Gold, Green Lantern, 2000AD, Buffy: Season 8, Angel, Warhammer 40,000, The Boys. |
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#13 |
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Twisted Cherry
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,668
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Okay, I am not saying this is right. This is wrong. Not trying to defend it. Just want to make that clear up front.
But I am interested in getting into this discussion further, getting into why this is so different that being raised in an Amish community in Pennsylvania, where the indoctrination and segregation from other cultures take place. I thought by making picking a culture that is generally viewed as benign, we could get into the logistics of exactly where the line is crossed in raising children and where it moves from nuturing to harmful.
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My personal & generally geeky blog: www.livejournal.com/users/corrinalaw Corrina Lawson's writing website |
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#14 | |
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Lailoni Prime Vespa
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,070
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Quote:
Probably one of the differences is the fact that the Amish at least give their kids a 'freedom time'. They let them go out and live in the world and experience normal stuff so that they can help make up their minds about whether they want to stay or not. I think another key issue is that, at least to the best of my knowledge, I've never heard that the Amish go around telling their kids that EVERYONE else is going straight to hell. That being said, does anyone know how the Amish community feels about and treats gays within their community? Are they tossed out?
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"Your silliness is noted." K9 in The Armageddon Factor Favorite line uttered by a TV show villain: "I don't know who you are but you probably deserve whatever happens to you." |
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#15 |
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Do you really think so?
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
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I'm no Amish scholar... but I've always gotten the impression that their lifestyle is almost more of a monk-type life than the evangelicals---very focused on growth of the individual *within* the community, believing in a lifestyle that makes material things low key on the one hand (things are things, getting too wrapped up in possessions can bend the person's footsteps away from following the path of simplicity). Yes, workers take great satisfaction in work well done, but more as a creative thing. But the simplicity---it's an outer simplicity of life that allows fewer distractions for the inner thoughts and soul. And the community is dedicated to harmony, as much as people can be---the structure of simplicity and solidarity within the lifestyle is to both help remove covetousness, and to encourage members to nurture each other and give each other a sense of community.
You can do a lot of thinking while out plowing the back forty, or churning the butter. I think the keys for the Amish are three: Simplicity Dedication to Harmony Willingness to allow individuals time and space to choose otherwise, if that's what they want. Now, I'm totally open for correction on any/all of this, but that's my impression. It's kind of like if you crossed an early Franciscan monastery with a small farm community. In some ways, there seems to be something almost Eastern about the philosophy... a simplicity with a lot of time that could double for meditation, I think. At any rate, the Amish don't trap their kids, and while they teach them the value of their life, they don't trap their kids in it, either. Nor do they proclaim others are going to hell if they aren't Amish, nor do they evangelize, nor try to take over government. They give their children structure and strictures... but don't try to *force* them into it---they *want* their children to be have contact at a certain age with the outside world, so that the child may choose *freely* and make an informed decision. Granted, it's a child who's coming from a certain structure and mindset---but we all give our children our own structure and mindset. The keys are two: 1. they don't damn other people 2. they allow freedom for a better informed, and individual, decision. Now, contrast that to the other folks: 1. All kinds of people are under God's wrath and going to hell 2. The outside world is evil, and any exposure or potential influence away from "The Way" must be eliminated (I'm hearing Daleks going "Exterminate! Exterminate!" Heh) 3. God's mission of love and mercy and saving for the world requires *them* to bring as many as possible into their fold---and for those who refuse, well, at this point it's not just "They're going to hell," it's "If we don't take control, they'll take us to hell WITH them!" (I think that last is a telling point: One of their fears is that the "evil and corruption" of society will drag them and their children to hell along with it... a hell on earth, at the very least.) 4. Satan is battling God for control of the world and for souls---and people they think are going to hell *may* well be unknowingly "doing Satan's work" at best, or be actual agents of the Devil at worst. Their idea of this "contest" evokes a lot of fear in them, much of it going back to superstitious fears from earlier times... and at times to me there seems to be a terror underneath their words: they insist loudly that Jesus has saved them, that they will be taken into the fold and into heaven as his faithful followers and as people who have accepted Jesus into their hearts... but when they talk about Satan and his works in the world, these assertions become especially vehement, like "If I say it loud enough and often enough, it reassures me that I won't have to suffer these horrible punishments---but there's this tiny doubt in the back of their minds that terrifies them. Part of that may be from seeing "lapsed" brothers and sisters, or children who were raised in the faith who leave as adults---and thus "are damned." So here's someone who *was* considered saved, now turns out not to have been saved at all. Which raises the specter: This could happen to anybody. It could happen to me." I think I know where some of this comes from... it's a dichotomy that bothered me in childhood: On the one hand they're told they must follow Jesus, follow his example... on the other hand they're told Jesus was perfect and they are sinners: imperfect creatures who can *never* be perfect. The whole idea creates a tension and anxiety within that nothing can assuage for long... because as we go through life, we "sin." And there's that fuzzy line... "If I sin too much, if I don't do something to atone to Jesus, was I really ever really saved in the first place? Will Jesus turn his back on me in the Rapture, or on Judgement Day?" So for many, their lives are spent trying to reconcile "I sin/I'm imperfect" and "I'm supposed to follow Jesus, Jesus was perfect, I'm not, I can't be, but I'm supposed to try." Part of the problem with this is when people are seeking a resolution to it, they're told to answer it with faith. But faith is an amorphous, emotional thing... so it fluctuates with their emotions, and for most, doesn't help them resolve the conflict. And with these churches, there are things the clergy could to to educate the people that would relieve that conflict---but why should they? A fearful congregation is an obedient and fervent congregation, one that is easily led. And of course, the "scriptures say" we must fear God. Fear. Their beliefs, their faith, their emotions over their religious status... it's filled with fear. For these folks, it rules their lives. And for the times when they feel a *certainty* that *they* are going to be saved in the end, sometimes that "knowledge" turns to what amounts to gloating: "I'm saved and you're not. I'm in good, I'm gonna have a mansion in the sky and live the perfect afterlife---you're gonna go to hell and burn unless you listen to me." It's like the neighbor with the new better job gloating over the wage-earner neighbor. I'm trying to describe something that's usually felt, heard in tone and seen in manner, rather than said outright---but it's something people sense and bristle at. Okay, this is long and I need to go do stuff... random thoughts, make of them what you will.
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Solaris The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted." ---Misty Lackey Last edited by Solaris; 09-23-2009 at 03:36 PM. |
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