Go Back   Comic Book Resources Forums > CBR Columns and Blogs > You'll All Be Sorry

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-22-2009, 08:33 PM   #1
Solaris
Do you really think so?
 
Solaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
Post Blumenthal Bk "Republican Gomorrah" excerpt: brainwashed pentacostal evangelical kid

Exerpt from the book "Republican Gomorrah
Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party" by Max Blumenthal, from thenation.com


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090921/blumenthal/3

Quote:
The Nation

The Nightmare of Christianity
by MAX BLUMENTHAL

September 9, 2009

The following is an excerpt from Max Blumenthal's new book, Republican Gommorah: Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party, published by Nation Books

A few miles down the road from Colorado Springs [a home to James Dobson's Focus on the Family], in the quiet bedroom community of Eldredge, a deeply disturbed young man named Matthew Murray followed the unfolding debacle at New Life Church [once under the stewardship of Pastor Ted Haggard] with an interest that bordered on obsession. Murray, a sallow-faced, bespectacled 24-year-old, had been indelibly scarred by a lifetime of psychological abuse at the hands of his charismatic Pentecostal parents. Murray's mind became crowded with thoughts of death, destruction, and the killings he would soon carry out in the name of avenging what he called his "nightmare of Christianity."

On an online chat room for former Pentecostals, Murray heaped contempt on his mother, Loretta, a physical therapist who homeschooled him to ensure that his contact with the outside world was severely limited. "My 'mother,'" Murray wrote, "is just a brainswashed [sic] church agent cun,t [sic]. The only reason she had me was because she wanted a body/soul she could train into being the next Billy Graham..."

He went on:
"...my mother was into all the charismatic "fanatical evangelical" insanity. Her and her church believed that Satan and demons were everywhere in everything. The rules were VERY strict all the time. We couldn't have ANY christian or non-christian music at all except for a few charismatic worship CDs. There was physical abuse in my home. My mother although used psychotropic drugs because she somehow thought it would make it easier to control me (I've never been diagnosed with any mental illness either). Pastors would always come and interrogate me over video games or TV watching or other things. There were NO FRIENDS outside the church and family and even then only family members who were in the church. You could not trust anyone at all because anyone might be a spy."

An authoritarian Christian-right self-help guru named Bill Gothard created the home-schooling regimen implemented by Murray's parents. Like his ally James Dobson, Gothard first grew popular during the 1960s by marketing his program to worried evangelical parents as anti-hippie insurance for adolescent children. Based on the theocratic teachings of R. J. Rushdoony, who devised Christian schools and home-schooling as the foundation of his Dominionist empire, Gothard's Basic Life Principles outlined an all-consuming environment that followers could embrace for the whole of their lives. According to Ron Henzel, a one-time Gothard follower who co-authored a devastating exposé about his former guru called A Matter of Basic Principles, under the rules, "large homeschooling families abstain from television, midwives are more important than doctors, traditional dating is forbidden, unmarried adults are 'under the authority of their parents' and live with them, divorced people can't remarry under any circumstance, and music has hardly changed at all since the late nineteenth century."

At the Charter School for Excellence, a school in South Florida inspired by Gothard's draconian principles that receives $800,000 in state funds each year, children are indoctrinated into a culture of absolute submission to authority almost as soon as they learn to speak. A song that the school's first-graders are required to recite goes as follows:

Obedience is listening attentively,
Obedience will take instructions joyfully,
Obedience heeds wishes of authorities,
Obedience will follow orders instantly.
For when I am busy at my work or play,
And someone calls my name, I'll answer right away!
I'll be ready with a smile to go the extra mile
As soon as I can say "Yes, sir!" "Yes ma am!"
Hup, two, three!

Former Arkansas governor and Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee is among the 2.5 million Americans who have attended Gothard's Basic Seminar. According to Huckabee, who once earmarked state funds to distribute Gothard's literature in Arkansas prisons, Gothard was responsible for "some of the best programs for instilling character into people." But to the deeply alienated Murray, Gothard was the original source of his pathology. "I believe that the truth needs to be exposed," Murray wrote in a September 2006 discussion forum of recovering Gothard followers. "People need to see through errornious [sic] and destructive doctrines and teachings including Bill Gothard's."
(There's more to this excerpt on The Nation site link above... but I figured this was enough to peak your interest, especially with the "stellar" cast of names. Bold and underlines are mine, btw.

http://www.nationbooks.org/book/189/...can%20Gomorrah


I'm not a big non-fiction reader, but I think I'll be checking this one out. Although, I know I'm likely to be saddened and enraged by this kind of stuff, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and read it anyway... in part because I'm hoping it's a good book to give to my parents (still trying to educate the parents, heh). There's some interesting stuff in the latter part of the excerpt about Oral Robert's University (specifically, about his sons) that I hadn't heard before,

As to how this kid was "raised," and the "obedience" brainwashing at the Charter School of Excellence... it's the stuff of nightmares, to me. Horrible.

Has anyone read this book yet? If so, what were your thoughts on it?
__________________
Solaris

The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me

Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted."

---Misty Lackey
Solaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2009, 10:08 PM   #2
rick
Anger is an Energy
 
rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, on Brookside, just up the road from Tejon.
Posts: 12,123
Default

A fascinating preview of what should be an excellent book.

My only complaint is sort of personal, and that’s Blumenthal making a reference to the “gospel of Colorado Springs”.

Look I know that the north side of town is filled with those religious nuts, but they really are not who makes up the majority of people living here in the Springs.

This town has an active arts community, a downtown filled with nightclubs, bars and music venues, one of the nations largest gay film festivals, Shakespeare in the park, one of the best library systems in the country and the annual decadence ball.

When Colorado Springs made its deal with the devil, giving all of these religious groups tax breaks to get them to move here during the financial troubles of the late 1980’s, I wonder if the cities leaders had any idea what it would do to the towns reputation?

Sorry to go so off topic, but it’s sort of weird living in a town that is known internationally for being the native homeland of bigoted, religious nutjobs everywhere, especially when the truth is so very different.
__________________
- rick
rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2009, 10:14 PM   #3
Mister Blisterfists
Frear of Natuke
 
Mister Blisterfists's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 540
Default

terrifying.
Mister Blisterfists is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 03:05 AM   #4
Flamebird
Free at Last!
 
Flamebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the woods
Posts: 7,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
Exerpt from the book "Republican Gomorrah
Inside the Movement That Shattered the Party" by Max Blumenthal, from thenation.com


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090921/blumenthal/3



(There's more to this excerpt on The Nation site link above... but I figured this was enough to peak your interest, especially with the "stellar" cast of names. Bold and underlines are mine, btw.

http://www.nationbooks.org/book/189/...can%20Gomorrah


I'm not a big non-fiction reader, but I think I'll be checking this one out. Although, I know I'm likely to be saddened and enraged by this kind of stuff, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and read it anyway... in part because I'm hoping it's a good book to give to my parents (still trying to educate the parents, heh). There's some interesting stuff in the latter part of the excerpt about Oral Robert's University (specifically, about his sons) that I hadn't heard before,

As to how this kid was "raised," and the "obedience" brainwashing at the Charter School of Excellence... it's the stuff of nightmares, to me. Horrible.

Has anyone read this book yet? If so, what were your thoughts on it?
Hadn't heard of the book, but having been raised as a Pentecost, it sounds pretty accurate. Which is to say, disgusting.
Luckily for me, I asked far too many questions that the church couldn't answer and they finally gave up on making me a "Soldier for God".
Then I came out to the family and was condemned to hell; which I find so far to be MUCH nicer than where I started.
__________________
"In times of CRISIS, it's of utmost importance to always keep ones' head."- M. Antionette


Dill Crockery Knoodle Jones-That Stillwell guy
Flamebird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 05:07 AM   #5
Solaris
Do you really think so?
 
Solaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
Default

Here's the blurb on the book:

Quote:
Award-winning journalist and documentary videographer Max Blumenthal has been behind some of the most sensational (and funniest) exposés of Republican excesses. Whether it was his revelation of Sarah Palin’s involvement with a Kenyan pastor who boasted of epic battles with witches, his shocking reports on rapture-ready fanatic Pastor John Hagee’s ties to Senators John McCain and Joseph Lieberman, or his exposé of the eccentric theocratic multimillionaire behind California’s Prop 8 anti-gay-marriage initiative, Blumenthal has become one of the most important and most constantly cited journalists on how a fringe movement became the Republican Party mainstream.

Republican Gomorrah—his remarkable, muckraking debut—is a bestiary of dysfunction, scandal, and crime from the heart of the movement that runs the Republican Party. Blumenthal describes with no-holds-barred detail the people and the beliefs that establishment Republicans—like John McCain—have to kowtow to if they have any hope of running for president, and how moderates have been systematically purged from party ranks. He shows why the unqualified Sarah Palin was the party’s only logical choice and how her most fanatical supporters will be setting the strategy for the Republican assault on the Obama administration. Blumenthal warns that the Christian right will quietly exploit the widespread financial misery caused by the economic meltdown while mainstream media pundits churn out faddish and unfounded tales of the movement’s death.

Inspired by the work of psychologist Erich Fromm, who analyzed how the fear of freedom propels anxiety-ridden people into authoritarian settings, Blumenthal explains in a compelling narrative how a culture of personal crisis has defined the radical right, transforming the character of the Republican Party for the next generation and setting the stage for the future of American politics.

So while the excerpt is about this kid's upbringing and the damage it did, the book itself apparently covers a wider scope... but seeing how this kid was raised, and the "in the news" names like Dobson, Focus on the Family, ORU, etc. being so associated with that... it's like pulling back a blanket to expose and study the inner workings of the ant nest and finding that under its distasteful and "normalized" surface the ants swarm on a rotting carcass, and indulge in cannibalism on those ants who diverge from the hive mind.

And *these * are some of the big players behind the "Christian" Conservative extreme within the Republican Party.

What's interesting, in noting that, is that part of what the book covers is "how moderates have been systematically purged from party ranks"... and it's pretty much *exactly* like how, within the religion of these Christian Conservatives like the Pentacostal Evangelicals, people who are more moderate with their Christianity and/or question this extremism are chastised and, if they don't tow the line, purged from the religion.

In other words, they took their religious fanaticism and harassment/purging tactics, and applied them to politics---so far with great success, in the Republican Party. But IMO, it's not just the fanaticism and tactics, it's also the money they bring to the table, because these fanatics are used to "supporting the cause" inside the church and donating/tithing a large amount of their money to the church---when the church says "support our candidate," the money pours in.

And, as we all know, there's nothing like money to grease the wheels of the political machine, and to push the party in the direction you want it to go. Money + vocal fanatics with a solidarity of purpose... is a scary thing.

And scary is their specialty... "Inspired by the work of psychologist Erich Fromm, who analyzed how the fear of freedom propels anxiety-ridden people into authoritarian settings," that statement underlines the *why* of all the fear and hate speech that comes from the Christian Political Right: feed the fears of the followers, and each time you do, you're reinforcing the fear of change they feel, and reinforcing the training to trust and obey WITHOUT QUESTION "authority"---the authority of the movement's leaders, the authority of the religious leaders (who often *are* the movement's leaders and/or at the right hand of the politicians and lobbyists and corporate sponsors).


Which explains the "anti-tolerance" messages, the hate and fear messages, the call to force the rest of the country into lock-step with these folks' life agenda---by combining obeying God's authority with obeying their *own* authority, by then interpreting and deciding "what God wants" to their followers... these religious leaders truly have combined religion and politics... and of course they see nothing wrong with that, because it increases their power and authority.

Frank Herbert hit the nail on the head with that one, about having religion and politics in the same cart, how it goes faster and faster in a headlong rush downhill until it goes out of control.
__________________
Solaris

The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me

Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted."

---Misty Lackey

Last edited by Solaris; 09-23-2009 at 08:01 AM.
Solaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 08:00 AM   #6
Solaris
Do you really think so?
 
Solaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamebird View Post
Hadn't heard of the book, but having been raised as a Pentecost, it sounds pretty accurate. Which is to say, disgusting.
Luckily for me, I asked far too many questions that the church couldn't answer and they finally gave up on making me a "Soldier for God".
Then I came out to the family and was condemned to hell; which I find so far to be MUCH nicer than where I started.

Hon, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm really glad you're out of it.

And welcome to hell with the rest of us sinners---mojitos are served at 5, and the dancing starts at 7 (orgy optional).
__________________
Solaris

The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me

Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted."

---Misty Lackey
Solaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 08:03 AM   #7
Solaris
Do you really think so?
 
Solaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick View Post
A fascinating preview of what should be an excellent book.

My only complaint is sort of personal, and that’s Blumenthal making a reference to the “gospel of Colorado Springs”.

Look I know that the north side of town is filled with those religious nuts, but they really are not who makes up the majority of people living here in the Springs.

This town has an active arts community, a downtown filled with nightclubs, bars and music venues, one of the nations largest gay film festivals, Shakespeare in the park, one of the best library systems in the country and the annual decadence ball.

When Colorado Springs made its deal with the devil, giving all of these religious groups tax breaks to get them to move here during the financial troubles of the late 1980’s, I wonder if the cities leaders had any idea what it would do to the towns reputation?

Sorry to go so off topic, but it’s sort of weird living in a town that is known internationally for being the native homeland of bigoted, religious nutjobs everywhere, especially when the truth is so very different.

Makes you just want to kick the town leaders in the nuts, doesn't it?
__________________
Solaris

The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me

Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted."

---Misty Lackey
Solaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 10:38 AM   #8
Charles RB
Elder Member
 
Charles RB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 23,964
Default

Quote:
Gothard first grew popular during the 1960s by marketing his program to worried evangelical parents as anti-hippie insurance for adolescent children
This bit interests me, because that means they were worried their children would become hippies.

Evangelists, believers in the joyous word of God, who have raised their children as evangelists... were worried they'd become hippies if they so much as encountered the concept.

Now, I'd have thought if you're a true believer, you'd think your religion and the standards you taught your sprogs would be stronger than that. And I thought that early Christians - heck, Jesus Himself - went off and hung out with non-believers and sinners all the time. As I recall, it was the non-believers and sinners who became believers and not-sinners, Jesus wasn't the one who turned into a moneylender.
__________________
"We must fight on!"
"We'll die. We fight and we die, that's how it goes."
"Then we die gloriously!"
"There's an important word there, and it's not gloriously."
- Only You Can Save Mankind
Charles RB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 11:00 AM   #9
Solaris
Do you really think so?
 
Solaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
This bit interests me, because that means they were worried their children would become hippies.

Evangelists, believers in the joyous word of God, who have raised their children as evangelists... were worried they'd become hippies if they so much as encountered the concept.

Now, I'd have thought if you're a true believer, you'd think your religion and the standards you taught your sprogs would be stronger than that. And I thought that early Christians - heck, Jesus Himself - went off and hung out with non-believers and sinners all the time. As I recall, it was the non-believers and sinners who became believers and not-sinners, Jesus wasn't the one who turned into a moneylender.
For all they proclaim, this is far less about Jesus and far more about power, control, and money, hon. The shepherds shearing the flock.
__________________
Solaris

The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me

Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted."

---Misty Lackey
Solaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 11:03 AM   #10
rick
Anger is an Energy
 
rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, on Brookside, just up the road from Tejon.
Posts: 12,123
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
Makes you just want to kick the town leaders in the nuts, doesn't it?
And a few, more than others.
__________________
- rick
rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 11:21 AM   #11
the4thpip
They call me Mr. Pip!
 
the4thpip's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 16,350
Default

Huckabee likes surrounding himself with nuts, doesn't he?

From today's Salon war room blog:

Quote:
When last we met World Net Daily columnist Janet Porter, she was passing along an e-mail that supposedly related a 1992 conversation indicating that President Obama was a Soviet mole, then being groomed to continue the Communists' work. Before that, Porter -- who served as co-chair of Mike Huckabee's presidential campaign's Faith and Values Coalition -- was warning Christians that anyone who voted for Obama over John McCain risked eternity in Hell. Before that, it was anyone who voted for McCain over Huckabee who was treading perilously close to damnation.

In her latest column, Porter's warning that the situation in the U.S. today is all too reminiscent of the Nazis' rise to power in Austria in the 1930's. (There are some serious historical problems with the column, but we'll get to that later.)

In a more normal political environment, this would just be a list of writing by one of thousands of people who've taken advantage of the ease and low cost of Internet publishing to get their various conspiracy theories out in the ether. But Porter's far more influential than that, and not just because of WND's rather large audience. She played that role in Huckabee's presidential campaign, of course. And now she's organizing the How to Take Back America Conference, which is happening in St. Louis this weekend -- the column is largely an advertisement for it. Among the planned speakers at the conference, from a list Porter provided in her piece:

Gov. Mike Huckabee, "Joe the Plumber," U.S. Reps. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., Trent Franks, R-Ariz., Steve King, R-Iowa, Tom McClintock, R-Calif., Dr. Tom Price, R-Ga.
Porter is co-chair of the conference, along with Phyllis Schlafly. The host committee includes WND Editor-in-Chief Joseph Farah, who's done more than anyone, with the possible exception of Orly Taitz, to keep the Birther flame alive. And yet all these people will be showing up and speaking at the conference. True, the really big stars of the Republican Party aren't among the names, but it's not a list of pikers, either. Huckabee came surprisingly close to capturing the GOP's presidential nomination last year, Price chairs the Republican Study Committee, which is the House's conservative caucus, and Bachmann, Franks and King are fairly high-profile as well.

You might think that these people would be embarrassed to attend a conference co-chaired by Porter, given her writings. Certainly it'd be fair to expect at least a little hesitation on the part of senior members of the House GOP about a conference with workshops like "How to recognize living under Nazis & Communists." "How to defeat attacks on sovereignty by UN treaties" and "How to defeat Con Con, National Popular Vote, ERA." (The "Con Con," short for constitutional convention, is an obsession of the John Birch Society.)

Not so, obviously.

Maybe the saddest part of Porter's column, though -- it would be pretty funny if it weren't so sad -- is the sheer ignorance of history on display. The piece is titled "Austria in the '30s: Mirror to America;" in it, Porter writes of another speaker at the conference:
Kitty was 12 years old when Adolf Hitler was elected fuhrer of Austria.

She is 83 with a "vivid memory" of what happened in her homeland next. She witnessed the government take over the banks and the auto industry. Sound familiar? In the last nine months, Obama and the Democrats in Congress have successfully orchestrated the government takeover of Chrysler and General Motors along with countless banks.

She witnessed the "compulsory youth" service and indoctrination. That sounds a little like Obama's call for "mandatory volunteerism" for America's youth ....

They had Joseph Goebbels; we have Mark Lloyd, the diversity czar, who is already poised to shut down private radio stations.
The key problem here? Porter wants to draw a parallel between Obama's presidency and the Nazi takeover in Austria -- but she's thinking of Germany, not Austria, and doesn't seem to realize that Austria was a separate country until after Hitler had assumed total control in Germany. The takeover of Austria was accomplished through the Anschluss, which was the German annexation of the country. And the vote that was held was a sham plebiscite asking Austrians whether they wanted to be annexed, not asking them to vote for the führer personally. (Hitler already had that title in Germany.)

For Porter's attempt at an analogy to actually succeed, she'd have to be writing about Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper becoming a dictator there and then sending troops down to the U.S. with plans to make this country part of Canada.
__________________
My blog.

We struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about; our very skins. It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given.
- Desmond Tutu

Getting married? Check http://www.fandgweddings.com/
the4thpip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 11:40 AM   #12
bringthenoise
Senior Member
 
bringthenoise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 1,361
Default

Quote:
"Joe the Plumber," U.S. Reps. Michele Bachmann,
Will the moron or the racist go on first?
__________________
Current Pull List: Captain America, X-Factor, Ms Marvel, New Avengers, Avengers: The Initiative, Incredible Hercules, Invincible Iron Man, Wolverine: First Class, Guardians of the Galaxy, Incognito, Detective Comics, Booster Gold, Green Lantern, 2000AD, Buffy: Season 8, Angel, Warhammer 40,000, The Boys.
bringthenoise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 12:48 PM   #13
Corrina
Twisted Cherry
 
Corrina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,668
Default

Okay, I am not saying this is right. This is wrong. Not trying to defend it. Just want to make that clear up front.

But I am interested in getting into this discussion further, getting into why this is so different that being raised in an Amish community in Pennsylvania, where the indoctrination and segregation from other cultures take place.

I thought by making picking a culture that is generally viewed as benign, we could get into the logistics of exactly where the line is crossed in raising children and where it moves from nuturing to harmful.
__________________
My personal & generally geeky blog:
www.livejournal.com/users/corrinalaw

Corrina Lawson's writing website
Corrina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 01:01 PM   #14
Stressfactor
Lailoni Prime Vespa
 
Stressfactor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrina View Post
Okay, I am not saying this is right. This is wrong. Not trying to defend it. Just want to make that clear up front.

But I am interested in getting into this discussion further, getting into why this is so different that being raised in an Amish community in Pennsylvania, where the indoctrination and segregation from other cultures take place.

I thought by making picking a culture that is generally viewed as benign, we could get into the logistics of exactly where the line is crossed in raising children and where it moves from nuturing to harmful.
There was a bit on NPR several, several months ago about a psychologist who specifically works among the Amish -- particularly among their youth. It was interesting since the guy basically spoke a bit about that line -- and that it is not always easy to see.

Probably one of the differences is the fact that the Amish at least give their kids a 'freedom time'. They let them go out and live in the world and experience normal stuff so that they can help make up their minds about whether they want to stay or not.

I think another key issue is that, at least to the best of my knowledge, I've never heard that the Amish go around telling their kids that EVERYONE else is going straight to hell.

That being said, does anyone know how the Amish community feels about and treats gays within their community? Are they tossed out?
__________________
"Your silliness is noted."
K9 in The Armageddon Factor

Favorite line uttered by a TV show villain: "I don't know who you are but you probably deserve whatever happens to you."
Stressfactor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2009, 03:27 PM   #15
Solaris
Do you really think so?
 
Solaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 12,285
Default

I'm no Amish scholar... but I've always gotten the impression that their lifestyle is almost more of a monk-type life than the evangelicals---very focused on growth of the individual *within* the community, believing in a lifestyle that makes material things low key on the one hand (things are things, getting too wrapped up in possessions can bend the person's footsteps away from following the path of simplicity). Yes, workers take great satisfaction in work well done, but more as a creative thing. But the simplicity---it's an outer simplicity of life that allows fewer distractions for the inner thoughts and soul. And the community is dedicated to harmony, as much as people can be---the structure of simplicity and solidarity within the lifestyle is to both help remove covetousness, and to encourage members to nurture each other and give each other a sense of community.

You can do a lot of thinking while out plowing the back forty, or churning the butter.

I think the keys for the Amish are three:

Simplicity
Dedication to Harmony
Willingness to allow individuals time and space to choose otherwise, if that's what they want.

Now, I'm totally open for correction on any/all of this, but that's my impression. It's kind of like if you crossed an early Franciscan monastery with a small farm community.

In some ways, there seems to be something almost Eastern about the philosophy... a simplicity with a lot of time that could double for meditation, I think.

At any rate, the Amish don't trap their kids, and while they teach them the value of their life, they don't trap their kids in it, either. Nor do they proclaim others are going to hell if they aren't Amish, nor do they evangelize, nor try to take over government.

They give their children structure and strictures... but don't try to *force* them into it---they *want* their children to be have contact at a certain age with the outside world, so that the child may choose *freely* and make an informed decision. Granted, it's a child who's coming from a certain structure and mindset---but we all give our children our own structure and mindset. The keys are two:

1. they don't damn other people

2. they allow freedom for a better informed, and individual, decision.


Now, contrast that to the other folks:

1. All kinds of people are under God's wrath and going to hell

2. The outside world is evil, and any exposure or potential influence away from "The Way" must be eliminated (I'm hearing Daleks going "Exterminate! Exterminate!" Heh)

3. God's mission of love and mercy and saving for the world requires *them* to bring as many as possible into their fold---and for those who refuse, well, at this point it's not just "They're going to hell," it's "If we don't take control, they'll take us to hell WITH them!"

(I think that last is a telling point: One of their fears is that the "evil and corruption" of society will drag them and their children to hell along with it... a hell on earth, at the very least.)

4. Satan is battling God for control of the world and for souls---and people they think are going to hell *may* well be unknowingly "doing Satan's work" at best, or be actual agents of the Devil at worst. Their idea of this "contest" evokes a lot of fear in them, much of it going back to superstitious fears from earlier times... and at times to me there seems to be a terror underneath their words: they insist loudly that Jesus has saved them, that they will be taken into the fold and into heaven as his faithful followers and as people who have accepted Jesus into their hearts... but when they talk about Satan and his works in the world, these assertions become especially vehement, like "If I say it loud enough and often enough, it reassures me that I won't have to suffer these horrible punishments---but there's this tiny doubt in the back of their minds that terrifies them. Part of that may be from seeing "lapsed" brothers and sisters, or children who were raised in the faith who leave as adults---and thus "are damned." So here's someone who *was* considered saved, now turns out not to have been saved at all. Which raises the specter: This could happen to anybody. It could happen to me."

I think I know where some of this comes from... it's a dichotomy that bothered me in childhood:

On the one hand they're told they must follow Jesus, follow his example... on the other hand they're told Jesus was perfect and they are sinners: imperfect creatures who can *never* be perfect.

The whole idea creates a tension and anxiety within that nothing can assuage for long... because as we go through life, we "sin." And there's that fuzzy line... "If I sin too much, if I don't do something to atone to Jesus, was I really ever really saved in the first place? Will Jesus turn his back on me in the Rapture, or on Judgement Day?"

So for many, their lives are spent trying to reconcile "I sin/I'm imperfect" and "I'm supposed to follow Jesus, Jesus was perfect, I'm not, I can't be, but I'm supposed to try."

Part of the problem with this is when people are seeking a resolution to it, they're told to answer it with faith. But faith is an amorphous, emotional thing... so it fluctuates with their emotions, and for most, doesn't help them resolve the conflict. And with these churches, there are things the clergy could to to educate the people that would relieve that conflict---but why should they? A fearful congregation is an obedient and fervent congregation, one that is easily led. And of course, the "scriptures say" we must fear God.

Fear. Their beliefs, their faith, their emotions over their religious status... it's filled with fear. For these folks, it rules their lives.

And for the times when they feel a *certainty* that *they* are going to be saved in the end, sometimes that "knowledge" turns to what amounts to gloating: "I'm saved and you're not. I'm in good, I'm gonna have a mansion in the sky and live the perfect afterlife---you're gonna go to hell and burn unless you listen to me." It's like the neighbor with the new better job gloating over the wage-earner neighbor. I'm trying to describe something that's usually felt, heard in tone and seen in manner, rather than said outright---but it's something people sense and bristle at.

Okay, this is long and I need to go do stuff... random thoughts, make of them what you will.
__________________
Solaris

The worst disease in our world is a lack of compassion, and the blind ignorant sense of entitlement which takes no account of sacrifices made by others that allow said individual to exist.---me

Tarma: "Surprise, youngling! Nothing learned is ever lost or wasted."

---Misty Lackey

Last edited by Solaris; 09-23-2009 at 03:36 PM.
Solaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:44 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 1996-2010 Boiling Point Internet DBA Comic Book Resources. All Rights Reserved.