The comics industry - What next?

[greatmetropolitan]

The recent furore over Alan Moore's Blackest Night comments have finally persuaded me to try and put in writing some thoughts I've been having for a long time now on the comics industry. I am by no means a professional, although I did do my dissertation on comics 3 years ago. This is just my opinion.

First, I think it's best to address what Moore has been saying:

"I was noticing that DC seems to have based one of its latest crossovers in Green Lantern based on a couple of eight-page stories that I did 25 or 30 years ago. I would have thought that would seem kind of desperate and humiliating."

The itallicised part is what I take most issue with, on behalf of Geoff Johns. While I don't think that Moore was criticising Johns directly - he couldn't do so without reading the comic - I do think Johns is getting a raw deal here. Yes, he is using some ideas from Moore's Tygers story, but the amount that Johns has created for the Green Lantern universe all on his own - love it or hate it - is staggering. The stars alligned correctly for him on the ROY G BIV thing, but it was a very clever move and opened up lots of new worlds and characters to explore in Green Lanter, and indeed in DC comics. Johns created things, added to the toybox, and that's fantastic.

Then Moore says this:

"When I have said in interviews that it doesn’t look like the American comic book industry has had an idea of its own in the past 20 or 30 years, I was just being mean. I didn’t expect the companies concerned to more or less say, “Yeah, he’s right. Let’s see if we can find another one of his stories from 30 years ago to turn into some spectacular saga.”

Here he may be touching on some truth. Not for a moment do I think that anyone intentionally went out to find old Alan Moore stories to expand upon, and I don't believe that the comics industry has no good ideas of its own either. I just don't think there are enough of them.

A poster mentioned in the Alan Moore on The Killing Joke story - I'm sorry, I can't remember who - that he felt that what Moore was saying was that he tried to do new things back in the day, with Watchmen and Promethea and the like, and that the challenge to come up with new ways of telling stories with comics and new approaches to comics has not been met. I think this is pretty fair, even if not 100% accurate. It reminds me of when the director of Neon Genesis Evangelion came back to do the rebuild of Evangelion, he said that "Nothing has been as new as Evangelion" and in a way, few things have been as new as Watchmen. (I cant speak to Promethea, as I've never read it.)

A tone was set by Watchmen, an approach taken that has since been taken with many, many other comics, probably the majority of them published by the major superhero publishers. I think Watchmen was a game changer, and Moore is looking for the next game changer. He doesn't want people to springboard from plot points, but from intent. He wants the medium of comics moved forward.

When the Watchmen movie came out, I saw an advert from DC saying "After Watchmen, what's next?" They were trying to direct new comics readers who were hooked in by Watchmen to some other comics that they might like. A good idea.

However, when I saw this advert, I got excited. I thought DC were doing the bigger thing, and looking for "the next Watchmen." The next game changer. The question is there already. What next? We know we're not out of options. This is not a medium that has run its course.

Then I look at Japan. When the economic crisis hit and the US was putting money into the car industry and the UK was buying up banks, Japan were giving stimulus money to the manga industry.

"Japan looks to manga comics to rescue ailing economyExporting Japan's manga and anime heroes could be key to creating half a million jobs and overcoming downturn, says PM

While other countries bail out banks, slash interest rates and prop up struggling industries, Japan is pinning its hopes for economic recovery on a less likely source: manga comic books.

As part of 15 trillion yen of fresh stimulus measures unveiled today, Japan hopes to raise the percentage of its exports of "soft power" - manga, animated films, video games and pop music - from 2% of the total to 18% over the next decade, creating half a million jobs.

"Japanese content, such as anime and video games, and fashion draw attention from consumers around the world," the prime minister, Taro Aso - a self-confessed manga addict - told reporters this week as he waved copies of magazines from China and Taiwan featuring Japanese pop stars on their covers.

"Unfortunately, this soft power is not being linked to business overseas. By linking the popularity of Japan's soft power to business, I want to create a 20-30 trillion-yen market by 2020 and create 500,000 new jobs."

Are there even 500,000 people working in American comics? How is it that this medium we love so much can't be as widespread and accepted here as it is in Japan?

Part of my guess would be the sheer range of choice in comics in Japan. Shonen, the stuff most like the superhero stuff, is but one corner of the market. You want a comic about a suburban housewife? You got it. Comic about a struggling band? Check. Teen Jesus? Every damn chance.

I'm in no way suggesting that if we just put out a metric ton of new material of various genre that comics will suddenly gain popularity and progress further, but it may be one way to help us on the way.

Garth Ennis said once that he didnt hate superheroes, he just hated that the dominate the industry. He said it was a damn shame, and I'm inclined to agree. I love my superheroes with all my heart and my superhero comics number easily in the thousands, but there's more we can do. I can't help but think that we need to start thinking outside of our, admittedly lovely, little box. Otherwise, what Moore said about the industry not being here in five years might not be too far off the mark.

What do you guys think? What are comics doing right? What are they doing wrong? Any ideas for how to make it better?

Thanks for reading if you made it this far, sorry if it was a little long

Stephen

[spidervenom]

We need more pirate comics, that would be good.

[K-DoG7p7]

One thing people seem to forget about Moore comment is that he has not read Blackets Night, and he is just saying what he heard.

The fact is his story was only a minor plot element in The Sinestro Corps war, He did not invent the "Blackest Night".
If you read GL from Rebirth and untill now you see that story only mentioned as a possible future event that becomes moot in The Sinestro Corps war, nothing from his story is still playing a part (Other then characters he created like Mogo and Sodam Yat)


I hate that people actually think his story was the basis for the current event (or even Sinestero Corps War.)

[greatmetropolitan]

Originally Posted by K-DoG7p7

One thing people seem to forget about Moore comment is that he has not read Blackets Night, and he is just saying what he heard.

The fact is his story was only a minor plot element in The Sinestro Corps war, He did not invent the "Blackest Night".
If you read GL from Rebirth and untill now you see that story only mentioned as a possible future event that becomes moot in The Sinestro Corps war, nothing from his story is still playing a part (Other then characters he created like Mogo and Sodam Yat)


I hate that people actually think his story was the basis for the current event (or even Sinestero Corps War.)

Yeah, it's evident that Johns just thought of a cool story, then realised that there were elements mentioned in previous Green Lantern stories that he could incorporate into his.

That raises an interesting point - too much continuity in western comics? I had the argument with my brother that while people say every comic is someone's first, some of them just plain shouldn't be. If someone wanted to get into comics tomorrow, there's no way I'd hand them Blackest Night. That's no slight on BN, it's just the way the comic is. It's being told off the back of years of buildup and it's paying off.

Still, I'll ponder the continuity question...

[diana_fan]

I dunno. I jumped into the deep end not the many years ago (it was when IDC was finishing up, and the build-up to IC was starting). I didn't have any trouble. Even "new readers" are fairly bright, and who doesn't have the Internet?

Anyhow ...

Superhero Comics. There are a lot of comics published in the US that aren't superhero comics. There just doesn't appear to be much of a market for them. What that means, I don't know. But it's certainly true that, in many people's minds, superheroes and comics have melded into one single entity.

In Japan, obviously things are different. I don't know why exactly, but they clearly are. Comics have a very different cultural relevancy there, from what I understand.

I don't know if that could ever happen here, regardless of the problems with distribution, and all that jazz.

Personally, I think that the move toward motion comics, digital comics, and multi-media in general is going to be the future, one way or the other. Something like 90% of music purchased on-line is purchased through iTunes. And when the motion comic of Spider-Woman came out, it was #1 for that day on iTunes, if I recall.

How will it play out, and what does it mean for the industry as a whole, and how it works? I have not the slightest clue. I don't think we're going to see the end of the paper comic, though, either.

And honestly, look at television: scripted (not to imply that "reality" shows aren't scripted -- but I can't think of a better word right now) shows are on the decline. Heck, NBC replaced their entire week's 10pm time slot with a talk show. Each week, the biggest shows are these "un-scripted" and competition shows.

Maybe Americans are losing their taste for scripted entertainment altogether? With the obvious exception of the movie industry, but that has a rather unique situation.

[greatmetropolitan]

I think the digital aspect will definatley come into play, I'm not sure how I'll feel about it though. I'd really need to read a comic online to see how I think it affects the comic read experience. I'm not a huge fan of motion comics, which surely are just like crappy cartoons? It's either a comic or it's animated, not both!

It was interesting doing some numbers last night - most of the top 10 graphic novels by sales right now are manga. The only thing that comes close to beating manga out is Watchmen.

I read both manga and american comics, so I wonder why more manga fans don't do the same. They are vastly different in execution, but both are still conveying information via images in sequence. Storytelling techniques, maybe?

[diana_fan]

Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan

I think the digital aspect will definatley come into play, I'm not sure how I'll feel about it though. I'd really need to read a comic online to see how I think it affects the comic read experience. I'm not a huge fan of motion comics, which surely are just like crappy cartoons? It's either a comic or it's animated, not both!

Motion comics have a way to go, that is for sure. And the way they're done now, at least when they are planned to have a motion comic version from the start (like Spider-Woman), is extremely work intensive. Maleev said that it was taking a very long time to draw the larger pages.

So, I don't know. I do know that I have tried a couple programs on my iPhone, and one of them is actually pretty cool. So, I've looked at some some free indy stuff that I would never have seen otherwise.

But yeah, the digital comics revolution still needs work. Maybe the Apple tablet will have an effect on it?

It was interesting doing some numbers last night - most of the top 10 graphic novels by sales right now are manga. The only thing that comes close to beating manga out is Watchmen.

Hmm. You mean those manga digests? For one thing, the price point is completely different, and so it's an unfair comparison. Digests and GNs or collected editions are so different, I'd be hesitant to compare them.

I know that the NYT list doesn't include digests. The last NYT list for hardcovers was:

1. MERCY THOMPSON: HOMECOMING (Del Rey)
2. BATMAN: WHATEVER HAPPENED ... (DC)
3. BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE (DC)
4. A.D.: NEW ORLEANS AFTER THE DELUGE (Pantheon)
5. FINAL CRISIS (DC)
6. HALO: UPRISING (Marvel)
7. FILTHY RICH (Vertigo)
8. BATMAN: R.I.P. (DC)
9. MOUSE GUARD: WINTER 1152 (Archaia)
10. GREEN LANTERN: RAGE OF THE RED LANTERNS (DC)

And for softcovers, it was:

1. THE COMPLETE PERSEPOLIS (Pantheon)
2. WATCHMEN (DC)
3. THE WALKING DEAD, VOL 10 (Image)
4. FABLES, VOL 12 (Vertigo)
5. V FOR VENDETTA (DC)
6. BATMAN: ARKHAM ASYLUM (DC)
7. BATMAN: HUSH (DC)
8. FABLES, VOL 1 (Vertigo)
9. X-MEN: MISFITS, VOL 1 (Del Rey)
10. THE SANDMAN: PRELUDES AND NOCTURNES (DC)

The NYT has a separate list for Manga, and the most expensive one on the list was $10.99. Whereas, the majority of GNs were around or over the $20 range.

I read both manga and american comics, so I wonder why more manga fans don't do the same. They are vastly different in execution, but both are still conveying information via images in sequence. Storytelling techniques, maybe?

Well, I can only speak for myself.

I don't know any of the characters or stories or anything, for one thing. The black and white is a huge turn off, in general, too.

I mean, I look at one of these digests, and then compare that to something like the HC for "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader," and I lose pretty much all interest.

Most of the manga I've given a look hasn't immediately grabbed my attention, and I'm not entirely sold on the art I've seen in the ones I've tried.

And I don't know any of the creators, so I can't judge ahead of time what might or might not be "good." There's just no overall context in which to place any of it.

Does that make sense?

[bringthenoise]

I mean, I look at one of these digests, and then compare that to something like the HC for "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader," and I lose pretty much all interest.

Yeah, I lost all interest in that drivel too. What the fuck was Gaiman up to?

... or did you mean something else?

[greatmetropolitan]

Originally Posted by diana_fan

Motion comics have a way to go, that is for sure. And the way they're done now, at least when they are planned to have a motion comic version from the start (like Spider-Woman), is extremely work intensive. Maleev said that it was taking a very long time to draw the larger pages.

So, I don't know. I do know that I have tried a couple programs on my iPhone, and one of them is actually pretty cool. So, I've looked at some some free indy stuff that I would never have seen otherwise.

But yeah, the digital comics revolution still needs work. Maybe the Apple tablet will have an effect on it?



Hmm. You mean those manga digests? For one thing, the price point is completely different, and so it's an unfair comparison. Digests and GNs or collected editions are so different, I'd be hesitant to compare them.

I know that the NYT list doesn't include digests. The last NYT list for hardcovers was:

1. MERCY THOMPSON: HOMECOMING (Del Rey)
2. BATMAN: WHATEVER HAPPENED ... (DC)
3. BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE (DC)
4. A.D.: NEW ORLEANS AFTER THE DELUGE (Pantheon)
5. FINAL CRISIS (DC)
6. HALO: UPRISING (Marvel)
7. FILTHY RICH (Vertigo)
8. BATMAN: R.I.P. (DC)
9. MOUSE GUARD: WINTER 1152 (Archaia)
10. GREEN LANTERN: RAGE OF THE RED LANTERNS (DC)

And for softcovers, it was:

1. THE COMPLETE PERSEPOLIS (Pantheon)
2. WATCHMEN (DC)
3. THE WALKING DEAD, VOL 10 (Image)
4. FABLES, VOL 12 (Vertigo)
5. V FOR VENDETTA (DC)
6. BATMAN: ARKHAM ASYLUM (DC)
7. BATMAN: HUSH (DC)
8. FABLES, VOL 1 (Vertigo)
9. X-MEN: MISFITS, VOL 1 (Del Rey)
10. THE SANDMAN: PRELUDES AND NOCTURNES (DC)

The NYT has a separate list for Manga, and the most expensive one on the list was $10.99. Whereas, the majority of GNs were around or over the $20 range.



Well, I can only speak for myself.

I don't know any of the characters or stories or anything, for one thing. The black and white is a huge turn off, in general, too.

I mean, I look at one of these digests, and then compare that to something like the HC for "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader," and I lose pretty much all interest.

Most of the manga I've given a look hasn't immediately grabbed my attention, and I'm not entirely sold on the art I've seen in the ones I've tried.

And I don't know any of the creators, so I can't judge ahead of time what might or might not be "good." There's just no overall context in which to place any of it.

Does that make sense?

I can totally see where you're coming from with a lot, if not all of the points you made.

The price issue between manga volumes and American HCs or GNs is interesting, and you're that that it's not an entirely fair comparison. However, maybe the black and white format, and indeed the format of the volumes themselves are worth looking at.

For example, living in Scotland, I can buy one issue of an American comic book for about £2.50, depending on the comic. That works out around $3.75 for an average comic book. That's usually 22-24 pages. Let's include backup features, and call it 35-40 pages, full colour. I then buy Shonen Jump, an anthology book with chapters from a few different manga. It's bigger than a comic in size, and runs to about 400 pages (give or take) of black and white manga. Shonen Jump also includes some full colour pages of some manga, too, and also articles and interviews with creators. Price? about £4, so that's about $6. For $2.75 more, I'm getting ten times the page count, and articles/information and interviews.

The kind of manga that you find on some GM charts is the digests you were talking about, the volumes. Smaller, look kind of like little books (Turn on for readers? turn off?) They'll be dedicated to one manga instead of being an anthology. Occasionally they'll have creator interviews too. They run at £5, for 200 pages. It's a better quality product than Shonen jump, and dedicated to one story and not many. It also doesn't censor the material the way Shonen Jump will. So in this case, you'd be paying $3 or so more for five times the page count, and a better quality purchase.

Manga here certianly is the more affordable option, and you get more story for your money. You could argue that you lose out on the art, but that's mainly on the colour aspect. Dropping the colour may be what makes manga so affordable. I think it was Kieth GIffen who suggested that DC start producing black and white comics, and collect the most popular runs in full colour GNs.

As for not knowing where to start with manga, thats totally understandable. The manga market in the west is just the tip of the international iceberg. Far more choise. A lot of the big names in manga made it through the animes made from them and the toy lines - Yugioh, Dragonball Z, Naruto etc. The only thing to help would be research, really. Look for the popular stuff, find out why people like it and see if it makes you want to buy it. If you're interested, I'll even make some recomendations

I was going to go into the differences in production methods for manga and western comics, but my posts are becoming worryingly long...

[diana_fan]

Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan

If you're interested, I'll even make some recomendations

Thank you. If I change my mind, I will definitely call for your recommendations.

I was going to go into the differences in production methods for manga and western comics, but my posts are becoming worryingly long...

No, they're interesting. To me, the problem is this:

When I see art like this, I want to keep coming back.



Or this ...



Will I get the Maleev or the JHW3 art in manga?

[jamesfreeman]

Originally Posted by diana_fan

Thank you. If I change my mind, I will definitely call for your recommendations.



No, they're interesting. To me, the problem is this:

When I see art like this, I want to keep coming back.



Or this ...



Will I get the Maleev or the JHW3 art in manga?

That's certainly how I feel, but unfortunately if international sales are any indication, you and I are in the minority. You can argue that due to the black and white and relatively flat nature of manga, they will most likely never reach the level of artistic beauty of an American comic by someone like JHW3, Maleev, or Tony Harris. But at the end of the day, the flat and B&W art enables the manga industry to drastically undercut pretty much all American comics, and this is one of the things that is killing the superhero market.

Look at it like this. Naruto and Batman are both pretty popular. If a kid goes into a store and sees he can buy a 25 dollar Batman graphic novel with 174 pages, or an 8 dollar Naruto graphic novel with about 200 pages, which one do you think he will buy?

[diana_fan]

Originally Posted by jamesfreeman

That's certainly how I feel, but unfortunately if international sales are any indication, you and I are in the minority. You can argue that due to the black and white and relatively flat nature of manga, they will most likely never reach the level of artistic beauty of an American comic by someone like JHW3, Maleev, or Tony Harris. But at the end of the day, the flat and B&W art enables the manga industry to drastically undercut pretty much all American comics, and this is one of the things that is killing the superhero market.

Look at it like this. Naruto and Batman are both pretty popular. If a kid goes into a store and sees he can buy a 25 dollar Batman graphic novel with 174 pages, or an 8 dollar Naruto graphic novel with about 200 pages, which one do you think he will buy?

That's not my concern. I don't run the company.

But Batman's been around since ... what? 1940? The last Batman movie made over a BILLION dollars worldwide?

Naruto, with his spiked hair and whatever may be popular, but call me when a Naruto movie makes over a billion dollars.

[jamesfreeman]

Originally Posted by diana_fan

That's not my concern. I don't run the company.

But Batman's been around since ... what? 1940? The last Batman movie made over a BILLION dollars worldwide?

Naruto, with his spiked hair and whatever may be popular, but call me when a Naruto movie makes over a billion dollars.

The character may be popular in other forms of media, but Batman and the JLA should EASILY be outselling Naruto. I hope the eventualality of digital comics help this problem.

Because in all honesty, the movie success and such rarely has a long term effect on comic sales, with the exception of smaller characters like Hellboy and Deadpool.

[diana_fan]

Originally Posted by jamesfreeman

The character may be popular in other forms of media, but Batman and the JLA should EASILY be outselling Naruto. I hope the eventualality of digital comics help this problem.

Because in all honesty, the movie success and such rarely has a long term effect on comic sales, with the exception of smaller characters like Hellboy and Deadpool.

But it's not an issue of long-term effect on sales (of comics).

DC and Marvel are Multimedia companies, selling everything from comics to movies to games to whatever else. A character like Batman is a HUGE seller.

That's obvious. Whatever medium we're talking about.

[mikekerr3]

Originally Posted by jamesfreeman

The character may be popular in other forms of media, but Batman and the JLA should EASILY be outselling Naruto. I hope the eventualality of digital comics help this problem.

They should be outselling a much cheaper and more readily availble book like Naruto? Why should that be?

Originally Posted by jamesfreeman

Because in all honesty, the movie success and such rarely has a long term effect on comic sales, with the exception of smaller characters like Hellboy and Deadpool.

When you sell a boutique product primarily from sometime weird little specialty stores, you can't expect to get much boost from pupucuture events like movies, the market doesn't overlap.

I think that paper comics have to make a major effort to get back into mass market outlets or they will just fade away.