A frank discussion about Frank... Miller that is.

[The ?]

This came up in the "comic book secrets" thread in the DCU forum where a lot of people admitted to not really caring for the Dark Knight Returns or Frank Miller's Batman work in general (the exception seemed to be Year One). I thought this would be a good place to discuss it in more depth.

Personally, I never cared much for DKR. Like I said in the other thread, I forget where I read it but a good quote that sums up my feelings for the book and Miller's Batman in general would be "I feel like I have to wash my brain every time I finish reading it."

More specifically, I think that Miller's Batman is everything the "real" Batman is afraid of becoming. Someone who's petty, stand-offish, completely alone (DKR and DKSA have Batman brutalizing Superman (his best friend) and Dick Grayson (his adapted son) with little to no remorse), and most of all, Miller's Batman seems more concerned with making himself feel better (everything in All-star about how much he loves being the goddamn Batman) than keeping other people from knowing the pain he felt.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Let's see what the internet at large has to say.

[comicsmetal]

Originally Posted by The ?

This came up in the "comic book secrets" thread in the DCU forum where a lot of people admitted to not really caring for the Dark Knight Returns or Frank Miller's Batman work in general (the exception seemed to be Year One). I thought this would be a good place to discuss it in more depth.

Personally, I never cared much for DKR. Like I said in the other thread, I forget where I read it but a good quote that sums up my feelings for the book and Miller's Batman in general would be "I feel like I have to wash my brain every time I finish reading it."

More specifically, I think that Miller's Batman is everything the "real" Batman is afraid of becoming. Someone who's petty, stand-offish, completely alone (DKR and DKSA have Batman brutalizing Superman (his best friend) and Dick Grayson (his adapted son) with little to no remorse), and most of all, Miller's Batman seems more concerned with making himself feel better (everything in All-star about how much he loves being the goddamn Batman) than keeping other people from knowing the pain he felt.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Let's see what the internet at large has to say.

I liked DKR,I found it very entertaining ,yes you are right he is not the batman we know and love but he is a different batman set in a different universe Also liked Year one as well but hated DKSA and that ASBR.I found that he just reapted the same thing he did in those books he did in DKR.An yes you are right Batman being agragont is aginst batman character.

The other stuff I read by Milller like Roinin and Sin city stuff I also enjoyed but those books seem to fit him better because they were not superhero based and were his own creations.

P.S Beware of Nickguy that guy is a huge Miller fan boy.

[BobMarket]

I love Dark Knight Returns for it's character study, artwork, and Clockwork Orange-esque nightmare future. I love Strikes Again for Miller's giddy satire, artwork and completely fearless approach to story telling.
I love Year One for it's story and simply beauty.

That being said All Star is an absolute nightmare. I think it's shallow, crude, pointless and a completely hollow echo of his "Sin City" work. I think that since the movie, he's more than likely been surrounded by "hollywood types" and eager fanboys who can't stop gushing about "sin city", and I think that's made Miller think solely in terms of "Sin City". All Star, is the Batman/Sin City book. The Spirit is Sin City but PG-13 Cartoonish kids version (and completely unwatchable, a triumph of bad decision making and head scratchingly bizarre scenes of boring, stupidity). He can't shake his head from that mind set. It's permeating his other creative endeavors.

That being said, he did write the best Daredevil story ever. And I'll stand on Bendis' coffee table and shout that at the ceiling.

[Captain Jim]

I've always said I think DKR is overrated. I like Year One, and everything else is downhill from there.

I expect that there will be a wide range of opinions on this topic, but let's be nice to each other, okay?

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by BobMarket

That being said, he did write the best Daredevil story ever.

Yeah, I'll go along with that.

[Fatguy]

Originally Posted by BobMarket

That being said, he did write the best Daredevil story ever. And I'll stand on Bendis' coffee table and shout that at the ceiling.

I assume you're talking about Born Again, if so I would agree

I liked DKR. I agree it's everything Batman works to not be, but that's why I find it so entertaining. Its a "What If" type story that deals with Batman pretty much living his nightmare. Its dark, its messy, and its ugly. And as long as its never continuity, I love it.

[BobMarket]

Originally Posted by Fatguy

I assume you're talking about Born Again, if so I would agree

I liked DKR. I agree it's everything Batman works to not be, but that's why I find it so entertaining. Its a "What If" type story that deals with Batman pretty much living his nightmare. Its dark, its messy, and its ugly. And as long as its never continuity, I love it.

oh yes. Born Again. The perfect marriage of artwork, story, and one that also completely taps into the spirit of the time it came out in, the comic as a dark reflection of society, in perfect step with it's environment, "what's happening" so to speak, at least "what was happening", now everything is sunshine and lollipops.

[Global Honored]

Year One is my fave Bat story. Period. So that is tops. (Frank and Mazzucchelli's DD: Born Again is right up there for me..that is another topic all together.)

But I must say that DKR is phenomenal. It doesn't feel as true to the character perhaps and Frank goes with his anti-hero protagonist that he seems to have used so much since instead of the broken down core of Bruce that was evident in Year One, but it is such a fun story to me and interesting take on the super hero/DC universe at large, what it could be. It may seem redundant now or played out, but those themes were still really fresh when DKR dropped. Does it hold up as well as Year One? Well no, but that is the context of the story. You do an origin and make it black and white and it will always be "history" for that character and title while if you do a "future" look at the character, and twenty years goes by and dozens of writers have immulated it and times change, then it really can't hold up as well in comparison. Maybe it is not fair to DKR, but there it is. It's still magnificent though IMO. As for DKSA...not so much.

[comicsmetal]

Originally Posted by BobMarket

I love Dark Knight Returns for it's character study, artwork, and Clockwork Orange-esque nightmare future. I love Strikes Again for Miller's giddy satire, artwork and completely fearless approach to story telling.
I love Year One for it's story and simply beauty.

That being said All Star is an absolute nightmare. I think it's shallow, crude, pointless and a completely hollow echo of his "Sin City" work. I think that since the movie, he's more than likely been surrounded by "hollywood types" and eager fanboys who can't stop gushing about "sin city", and I think that's made Miller think solely in terms of "Sin City". All Star, is the Batman/Sin City book. The Spirit is Sin City but PG-13 Cartoonish kids version (and completely unwatchable, a triumph of bad decision making and head scratchingly bizarre scenes of boring, stupidity). He can't shake his head from that mind set. It's permeating his other creative endeavors.

That being said, he did write the best Daredevil story ever. And I'll stand on Bendis' coffee table and shout that at the ceiling.

I actually agree that even thought I love Sin City(then agin I enjoy most non-superhero comics more).

[BobMarket]

Originally Posted by comicsmetal

I actually agree that even thought I love Sin City(then agin I enjoy most non-superhero comics more).

Hey I love Sin City too, as a comic and a movie, I just hate it when creators/artists begin to not only copy themselves, but do it poorly. Do more Sin City books, do a million more stories in Sin City, but leave it in Sin City. Let Batman, be Batman.

[comicsmetal]

Originally Posted by BobMarket

Hey I love Sin City too, as a comic and a movie, I just hate it when creators/artists begin to not only copy themselves, but do it poorly. Do more Sin City books, do a million more stories in Sin City, but leave it in Sin City. Let Batman, be Batman.

I agree with what you said.

[Alan2099]

DKR was a pretty good storyline, but in the end, I think it really did more harm to Batman than it did good.

Now it did have some good character moments. I like what happened with Two-Face for example. As a stand alone story, it really came through. Everything pretty much fit into the world it created. What I don't get is the people that take the characterization here and trea it like it's the definitve version of everything. I thought Joker was pretty horrible, and that darker nastier Batman really only fit into that world and timeframe. Trying to take that mentaility and say that's how Batman always was is a huge mistake that i think messed up both the modern stories and undermines the themes in DKR.

The story also pretty much treated Superman and Catwoman like they were garbage.

In the end, I don't see it as any more special than those various stories where Batman is in the year 8579 or is fighting crime with Elliot Ness or as one of King Arthur's Knights or anythign like that.

Now it's sequal and All-Star? Those just suck seven ways to Sunday.

[AiyokuSama]

I liked DKR, I found it interesting on a number of levels, even if it's not the Bruce I know.

And I liked ASBAR fr much the same reason, though I found it to be...less deep then DKR. But still a lot of fun. The lovely art sure doesn't hurt :)

But DKSA was HORRIBLE. I read it and pretty much every other page I was wonder "what the hell is he smoking?!" It was so....bizarre and disjointed. And yes, what he did to Dick annoyed the piss out of me. But Batman on the stage trying to incite teens to...uh...something? I mean really. I just wasn't for me. At all.

[matthewaos]

Personally I liked DKR, but I am one of those that don't care that much about Batman's continuity, I just like the character and enjoy read stories about him. Now DKSA it's another story. To be honest I found it great when I first read it, but I was young at comics. But as I was growing up and starting reading more and more stuff I realized that the guy just wanted to piss on the pages and make everyone buy it. It's exactly the same with ASBR. But DKR is a very good story.

[dancj]

So far I love everything Frank Miller's done with Batman.

The Dark Knight Returns and Year One hold joint first place for my favourite graphic novels of all time. Yeah, TDKR hasn't got the same Batman we have in regular continuity, but that doesn't bother me. Both books have the best written Alfred and Jim Gordon that I've ever seen.

The Dark Knight Strikes again and All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder aren't up to the same standard, but I'd still take them over 95% of the Batman comics that we get these days. They're both just such fun.

(Just to show that I'm not a Miller sycophant, I didn't like Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot, Martha Washington Dies, Sin City: Family Values or Tales to Offend)