Knight vs. Modern Fighter(s)

[Jason Redfield]

Well, the two threads concerning knights vs. Marines has inspired me.

Here's the first scenario:

One knight, in full combat armor, consisting of: full plate armor, chain mail at weak/open spots (under the arms, at the neck, etc.), and a leather jerkin.

The knight is armed with a six-foot spear as his primary weapon. He has a broadsword (30 inches in length) in a sheathe and a heater shield made of wood, covered in leather.

The knight is on foot. Let's assume he has had a standard amount of training for knights of the mid-to-late Middle Ages.


His opponent is a US Marine.

The Marine is in full riot gear, consisting of: a heavy stabproof vest, shoulder pads, neck guard, riot helmet (with facemask), leg protection, protective gear on arms, defensive gloves, etc. Basically the whole nine yards.

His primary weapon consists of an unloadedM16 with attached OKC-3S bayonet (about 42" in length, knife can be removed). He is also equipped with a riot shield, expandable 31" or 26" ASP baton, and a modern Tomahawk.

The Marine is also on foot. Let's say he trained a bit as a teen, but is highly trained in hand-to-hand combat, bayonet techniques, knife-fighting, and baton usage.

The fight takes place in an urban area, out in the streets. The two fighters are 25 yards from one another.

If this scenario seems to stacked in favor of the knight (it's starting to), then consider if there were two Marines instead.


The second scenario:

Same knight, but with a lance rather than a spear. He is now on horseback.

There are four Marines on foot to oppose him, same gear for them as well.

This engagement takes place in an open field. The knight starts out 35 yards from the Marines.

[Wjowski]

...3 inch broadsword?

[Jason Redfield]

Oops. Typo on my part. It's supposed to be 30 inches. Let me fix that.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Sharpandpointies]

When you say the marine is 'highly-trained', is he 'marine-trained', or are you saying he's had massive injections of extra hand-to-hand training?

[Sharpandpointies]

As for two-to-one odds, they suck, especially when the opposition is fairly well armored. All the marines have to do is get close to flanking the knight, then bull-rush him from behind their shields (riot shields are quite large, and more than sufficient against a spear for a short period). It's unlikely the knight can kill one of them before he gets dragged down, and two-on-one on the ground stinks.

[Jason Redfield]

Good question. I should've fleshed that out more.

Let's say he's a black belt in MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) and also mastered some other melee combat techniques on the side (particularly the baton and use riot gear).

[Sharpandpointies]

Originally Posted by Jason Redfield

Good question. I should've fleshed that out more.

Let's say he's a black belt in MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) and also mastered some other melee combat techniques on the side (particularly the baton and use riot gear).

They give belts out in army hand to hand? And what does 'black belt' mean? Black belts mean completely different things in different schools with regards to actual fighting ability.

If you're saying he's far, far better than the norm for marines, that's fine.

[Jason Redfield]

The Marines have their own martial art -- MCMAP. And it does, like most martial arts, have different belt colors to mark levels of proficiency. I apologize; my knowledge of martial arts in general isn't extensive, I thought black belts were, in general, the highest level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_...l_Arts_Program

That link should provide most of the information. Let's say 2nd degree, by the way, just to give this guy a chance.

[Sharpandpointies]

Originally Posted by Jason Redfield

The Marines have their own martial art -- MCMAP. And it does, like most martial arts, have different belt colors to mark levels of proficiency. I apologize; my knowledge of martial arts in general isn't extensive, I thought black belts were, in general, the highest level.

First, second, third, fourth degree, it goes higher (though in many martial arts, anything above fourth is political). And some styles don't use degrees.

Also, some styles don't stop at black.

And some styles place a different meaning on a black belt/sash.

Many styles traditionally don't bother with belts or sashes at all.

And a black belt from school 1 can mean something different from school 2 in the same style.

Note that in the Marine School, if Wikipedia can be believed, all 2nd degree Black Belt means is that the person is a Sergeant - they need no other prerequisites to be higher than 1st degree (ranks after 1st Dan, according to the article, are authoritative rather than showing further technical ability).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_...l_Arts_Program

That link should provide most of the information. Let's say 2nd degree, by the way, just to give this guy a chance.

My goodness, that's a rather poor lock the marine has on his buddy in the lowest picture. The other stuff looks okay.

Okay, so he's a top-level marine hand to hand fighter against an average knight (62.5 hours minimum? At 3 hours a week,for example, that's a whopping 20 weeks - only half a year of training).

That's not very much. Compared to the knight, that's a very small amount . One may assume that the marine has trained enough to have some kind of proficiency with the techniques required for every belt level (at least in testing), but the knight still wins based on greater training, experience, and having a longer sharp stick.

[Sharpandpointies]

I suppose since it's not Khazan, we're giving the marine another extra in that he can run away and plan an ambush against the very much unstealthy/uncamoflaged knight. :)

[Jason Redfield]

We're assuming that he's been training since he was a teen, let's say once a day, for 2-3 hours. Plus the Marine training. And the supplementary training he got afterward, basically professional civilian training in baton usage and such. Not as much as a knight, but not bad.


What do you think of the second scenario?

[Jason Redfield]

Also, what would you say to an unarmored and completely unarmed conflict between a the Marine and knight?

[Alan2099]

Trying to stop a charging horse on foot being ridden by a gy with a sharp enough pointy thing to reach you doesn't sound like a very smart thing to be trying.

[Sharpandpointies]

Originally Posted by Jason Redfield

We're assuming that he's been training since he was a teen, let's say once a day, for 2-3 hours. Plus the Marine training. And the supplementary training he got afterward, basically professional civilian training in baton usage and such. Not as much as a knight, but not bad.

So now we're really loading on the training? Because very, very few people train that much these days. At all.

I'm just a little baffled. We're basically taking someone who is training to an insane degree by today's standards, giving them non-standard equipment, and then sending them up against 'average knight with standard equipment'.

Seems like stacking the deck in favour of the marine to make the fight more 'fair'. :)

In that case, the knight should still be able to give him a serious run for his money, based on having a far superior sharp stick and the training to use it. I don't know how many he'll win against this modern paragon, but he'll still make him work for every victory.

Marine - Better shield, better trained for close-in fighting if he can grapple.
Knight - Better weapons, more experienced in actual melee.

Knight probably still takes a minor majority.

What do you think of the second scenario?

Knight takes a serious majority. Ride down someone. Ride down someone else. Lather, rinse, repeat. Sometimes they'll kill the horse, sometimes they'll get the knight off it, but otherwise they're in big trouble. They don't have anything long enough to hide behind their shields and stop a cavalry charge, even if it's a cavalry of one.

[Sharpandpointies]

Originally Posted by Jason Redfield

Also, what would you say to an unarmored and completely unarmed conflict between a the Marine and knight?

Marine, obviously. Given he's been training in this sort of thing for 2-3 hours a day since he was a teen, and unarmed combat isn't exactly a knight's forté....