Romita, Romance and Spider-Man

[MichikoS]

I've been more and more interested in the Romance comics genre of late, and have taken to rather indiscriminate collecting of titles in that genre, as back issues from the '40s to the '70s remain very cheap, and provide a lot of entertainment value. I've moved well beyond the kitsch appreciation of the genre and have really begun to see some fascinating patterns emerge in the themes, characters, plots, and settings.

A recent lot purchase of DC's Falling in Love from the '60s yielded some stories drawn by John Romita that clearly presaged his work in ASM in the late '60s. Romita tried to "do" Ditko for a few issues, according to his own account, but he gave up and reverted to his own distinctive style on ASM after just a few issues.

Lee clearly saw an opportunity here: he had a premiere romance artist on his hands, and a chance to refocus Spider-Man with a hip, contemporary new look (Ditko's people are irrevocably stuck in the '50s). Romita drew beautiful people, and Lee's penchant for soap opera melodrama could be given free rein under Romita's polished style. Thus was the "new" Spider-Man born -- a dovetailing of the romance genre, with its complicated love triangles, sudden tragedies, dark secrets and tearful, emotional confrontations -- and the supherhero genre with its choreographed violence and its endless hero vs. villain formula plots. Eureka! A match made in heaven. The rest, as they say, is history.

I'm sure that this isn't an original observation, but it was an "aha" moment for me thanks to my recent immersion in romance comics.

BTW, I'm reading Michelle Nolans' excellent book on romance comics, LOVE ON THE RACKS published by McFarland, 2008. It's a splendid companion to John Benson's work exploring the romance comics genre. Highly recommended for comics history geeks.

Michi

[The Confessor]

Originally Posted by MichikoS

Lee clearly saw an opportunity here: he had a premiere romance artist on his hands, and a chance to refocus Spider-Man with a hip, contemporary new look (Ditko's people are irrevocably stuck in the '50s). Romita drew beautiful people, and Lee's penchant for soap opera melodrama could be given free rein under Romita's polished style. Thus was the "new" Spider-Man born -- a dovetailing of the romance genre, with its complicated love triangles, sudden tragedies, dark secrets and tearful, emotional confrontations -- and the supherhero genre with its choreographed violence and its endless hero vs. villain formula plots. Eureka! A match made in heaven. The rest, as they say, is history.

You know, I'd never specifically thought of it that way before but I think that you're right. It's hard to imagine the MJ-Peter-Gwen triangle being quite as successful with Ditko drawing them...you kinda needed the good looking, assured Peter and drop dead gorgeous MJ and Gwen to make it all work.

As I say, I'd never actually made the connection before but I think you're on the money...especially about Stan taking the opportunity to remodel Peter for a hipper, swinging Sixties audience.

Man, I love me some Romita era Spider-Man.

[spoon_jenkins]

Originally Posted by The Confessor

You know, I'd never specifically thought of it that way before but I think that you're right. It's hard to imagine the MJ-Peter-Gwen triangle being quite as successful with Ditko drawing them...you kinda needed the good looking, assured Peter and drop dead gorgeous MJ and Gwen to make it all work.

Ditko's Betty Brant looked okay with her updo, but very unattractive with her pageboy. Either way she couldn't hold a candle to Romita's women. I think Spider-Man at its best gives a lot of focus to Peter Parker out of costume. Romita drew the whole civilian supporting cast well - yes the women, but Aunt May and JJJ as well. That's a big reason that I'm in the Romita camp moreso than the Ditko one.

[Red Oak Kid]

Great observation. I agree that Romita's style was perfect for drawing Peter's supporting cast.

But your point that Stan adopted many romance comics conventions into the writing of the book had never occured to me till you pointed it out.

[benday-dot]

I think it was important, and fortuitous, that Ditko preceded Romita on Spider-man. I think it was hugely significant to Spider-Man's development as a character and situation of place in the MU that Ditko co-created Spider-man and oversaw the character's formative years.

It would have been a vastly different Spider-Man if Romita was on board from the get-go. Undoubtedly we would have had the Romance-Superhero blend Michi nicely illuminated, but we likely wouldn't have had that whole struggling "everyman" persona of Spider-Man. Yes, it persisted after wards, and was certainly evident in other MU books (the family travails of the FF), but not quite as it manifested itself in those early ungainly and and times peevish Ditko Spider-Man issues.

Every superhero in the biz has great power with great responsibility, but it is really felt at a visceral level when it was placed on the scrawny shoulders of that insular and mocked bookworm Peter Parker.

These were among the darkest times in Parker's life, and he was just finding his footing in the act of re-inventing himself as the exact opposite, in many ways, as his civilian self. Awkward times, and Ditko captured that awkwardness perfectly.

When Romita took over Parker started to shed much of this grimmer and more self-concsious character. And yet it is this Ditko side that remains IMO fundamental to the separation of Spider-Man from the rest of the spandex gang.

[MDG]

I'm actually in the process of reading ASM Essentials V. 3, which starts about issues into the Romita run, and while I'm enjoying it, I don't come away from each story (as I did reading Ditko) thinking "these are really great comics."

I mentioned in another thread how much i was impressed by Ditko's mastery of the medium in his ASM run. In the Lee/Romita run, I can get the excitement that readers at the time must've had of seeing something new being developed (a real advantage Marvel had over a lot of DC books during the silver age), but at the same time, I can see the seeds of what started to make so many comics close to unreadable in the late bronze, 80s and 90s--endless sub-plots, over-wordy panels, interminable internal monologues. (and I often feel comic writers do this because they're, at some level, embarrassed to be writing superhero stories).

I wonder what was the chicken and egg here--did Lee pick Romita intentionally because his romance experience made him a good artist to draw soap opera elements that Stan wanted to build up (possibly as a way to maintain reader loyalty), or did he only see this after Romita started drawing the book?

Either way, at this point in the book, I still find Mary Jane incredibly annoying.

[Red Oak Kid]

Originally Posted by benday-dot

I think it was important, and fortuitous, that Ditko preceded Romita on Spider-man. I think it was hugely significant to Spider-Man's development as a character and situation of place in the MU that Ditko co-created Spider-man and oversaw the character's formative years.

.

Absolutely, I agree. Spider-man was pretty much Ditko's invention. Stan Lee has said that the sales of Spider-man really took off when Romita took over the art. I have no doubt that sales increased but was it a direct result of Romita's art or was it just that the character was catching on or there had been some change in distribution that got the book on more newstands. It's possible that the book would have seen the same sales increase if Ditko had stayed.

Originally Posted by MDG

I wonder what was the chicken and egg here--did Lee pick Romita intentionally because his romance experience made him a good artist to draw soap opera elements that Stan wanted to build up (possibly as a way to maintain reader loyalty), or did he only see this after Romita started drawing the book?

I was wondering the same thing. Usually such matters are determined by more mundane factors such as who is available at any given point in time. I've read about this and I think Romita was completely out of comics at that point and had a job in the real world. If I had to guess, I would doubt that Stan picked Romita for this book based on his romance work. Stan had worked with Romita at Timely and I think he just liked him and knew he was a capable artist.

[zilch]

Its been my contention for a long time that the soap-opera turn of the Marvel universe on its first expansion is due to the fact that Lee was working with artists from the romance books (Romita, Roth, Heck ect.) and playing to their strengths.

[spoon_jenkins]

Originally Posted by MDG

I'm actually in the process of reading ASM Essentials V. 3, which starts about issues into the Romita run, and while I'm enjoying it, I don't come away from each story (as I did reading Ditko) thinking "these are really great comics."

Essential Spider-Man vol. 3 is the first Essential I ever bought. I hadn't read many of the Ditko or Romita issues prior to the Essential TPBs, so I actually end up reading a lot of Romita before Ditko. I had the opposite reaction - that the Ditko issues didn't measure up to the Romita issues I'd read before.

There's a different vibe to Peter's personal life in the Ditko days. It's a bit more pessimistic or misanthropic. The animosity between Peter and Flash is a bigger thing. Liz Allen gets nicer over time, but her role was often to be the bitch. Harry Osborne showed up late in Ditko's run and I don't think he and Peter were really on good terms. And I don't Robbie Robertson showed up until Romita's tenure. So there was more often a vibe of Peter doing things on his own anyone on his side.

[The Confessor]

Originally Posted by MDG

Either way, at this point in the book, I still find Mary Jane incredibly annoying.

"Hey, Petey-O...cool it! You're coming on strong, man...like someone stole all your ever lovin' Dylan discs!"

You gotta love it when Stan writes for the kids!

[Leocomix]

Originally Posted by zilch

Its been my contention for a long time that the soap-opera turn of the Marvel universe on its first expansion is due to the fact that Lee was working with artists from the romance books (Romita, Roth, Heck ect.) and playing to their strengths.

It has also been my contention. To the list you should add Kirby who created the romance genre in comics back in 1946 and who did it for more than 10 years.

[MichikoS]

Told you I wasn't advancing a particularly original idea. Finishing up Michelle Nolan's book on the history of romance comics, LOVE ON THE RACKS,I ran across this paragraph:

John Lustig speculates that without the high number of romance stories worked on by the folks at Marvel, editor Stan Lee's success with the "hip" super heroes of the early 1960s might have been diminished.

"If Stan and Jack hadn't pumped out '50s romances, would they have ever thought to infuse their super-hero comics with the sort of romantic angst that made Marvel such a success? ...Would we have ended up with a Spider-Man without a Mary Jane Watson? A Daredevil without a Karen Page? Or a Thor without that insipid, annoying Jane Foster? Face it, Tiger! We'll never know!"

Michi