Dick Grayson: Murderer?

[Lorendiac]

Originally Posted by Jenos

I think thats more a result of the inherent Speciesism thats often seen in comics as a whole - the vow to not kill only applies to humans. I mean, you don't see Batman going in and fighting against animals being used in medical testing, which means he inherently values humans more than animals. Whether or not it is right, if Batman did actually value animals as much as humans, he would act differently.

I see a crucial difference between the rights of a mere animal (such as a dog or a lab rat) and a sentient, civilized being (such as a Durlan or Gordanian or Psion). I don't hesitate to eat steak from a steer raised on a ranch out west, but I would definitely refuse to eat a "steak" carved from the body of a freshly-killed Durlan if I knew that was where it came from.

If you want to argue about speciesism, I think your case will look much stronger if you concentrate on cases where there seems to be a discrimination in the DCU between "how humans are treated" and "how other sentient beings, of similar intelligence to humans, are treated." Species which have their own spoken and written languages, religions, regular tool use, scientific research and development labs, schools, and so forth. Dragging in terrestrial animals, which are regarded by the law as "property" rather than "persons," only confuses the issue.

[WorstThingUS]

Originally Posted by Lorendiac

Years ago, I pointed out that Dick Grayson (and various other Teen Titans) appeared to be using deadly force in a 1982 "New Teen Titans" story arc when they traveled to other worlds in a quest to rescue Starfire after she'd been captured by her worst enemies (the Citadel, the Gordanians, and Kori's evil sister Blackfire).

The whole thing had a certain "Star Wars" feel to it. I don't remember Dick or Wally or anyone else later giving any of their "mentors" (Bruce, Barry, etc.) detailed descriptions of what they had done to the enemies they encountered on battlefields, very far away from Earth and its laws. It is possible that Batman et al. still live in blissful ignorance regarding just how many sentient beings the Titans killed (or helped allies such as the Omega Men find opportunities to kill) in the course of that adventure.

No, as I mentioned before Marv Wolfman confirmed they killed in a war setting, but pre-crisis as it was, Batman was honest about having done so and under much less drastic circumstances. It was also pre-crisis where Barry wasn't voted out of the JLA after snapping Professor Zoom's neck, so they were a little more understanding than you think.

[Vic Vega]

In the defense of the Pre-Crisis Batman, most of his confirmed kills are in the realm of negligent homicides (he lets the bad guy blow up in his lab instead of saving him).

Unless we are talking about some Bronze Age, Brave in the Bold Bob Haney story where Bats is machine-gunning Commies or the Viet Cong something.

Robin was cold shooting Gordainians in the dome.

Of course the Gordainians are like the Viet-Cong of Space so maybe it DOES all work out.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I chuckled when Dick dragged that fire-headed guy on the asphalt as he drove his 4x4 atv rig. rotflol