Marvel Editor: Not Enough Women Trying to Break into Comic Book Business

[AdoraSpintriae]

That really surprised me - are there really no new Gail Simones, Louise Simonsonses, Linda Fites, Ann Nocentis and Devin Graysons trying to make it?

Why is it so surprising? A genre has to make a certain group of people like it in large enough numbers before they can expect those people to start applying to work in it. Girls and comics? Well, most of the girls I know who want to break into the industry (or who have in some way or another) are taking the US-Manga route, because it's far far more welcoming to them, their talents, and their stories. Yes, there are contract issues, and they sometimes get screwed by the companies as well, but overall the environment is far less hostile, and so fresh and new that they don't have to worry about bashing their head against a 50-year-old wall to get what they want in terms of their stories being told in a way they are satisfied with. Manga publishers want the women comic buyer market and actively pursue it (and how better to know what women buyers want than to recruit women creators who are also women buyers), which is something that the US comics industry has yet to prove it has any real commitment to.

[titanfan]

That really surprised me - are there really no new Gail Simones, Louise Simonsonses, Linda Fites, Ann Nocentis and Devin Graysons trying to make it?

And didn't Gail, Louise, and Devin break into the industry in unconventional ways?

If you take a look at those talent search thingies at comic conventions, all the people standing in line are men...

[Magneto_X]

Adora:

Comics are more than just super-heroes.

The indie scene is proof enough that there are plenty of female creators out there just working in different genres.

That's also possibly why manga gets so much girls & women in their readership.

The "mainstream" of the industry doesn't have much interest in them or appeal to them.

[Gail Simone]

Originally Posted by the4thpip

My interview with Ms. Marvel editor Andy Schmidt went online today, and here is one answer I found interesting:



That really surprised me - are there really no new Gail Simones, Louise Simonsonses, Linda Fites, Ann Nocentis and Devin Graysons trying to make it?

I think it's more likely that aspiring female writers know that Marvel isn't their best shot.

I like Marvel. I have a lot of friends at Marvel. But there is definitely a Howard Stern/partytime/fratboy/strip club element.

Again, I like Marvel. But when I was there, it was INEVITABLE that every female who left or was let go would be referred to as a 'crazy bitch' at some point. I don't blame any one person for it, but it is something that could bite them in the ass if they're not careful.

And on the flipside, big kudos to editors like Mike Marts who could NOT have been more gracious and welcoming. And Joe Quesada has been nothing but nice to me as well. It's not the individuals, it's just sort of an institutionalized faux 'badboys' environment, to my mind.

As a final cavaet, let me add that it's been some years since I was there and it all may have changed since then.

Gail

[PatrickG]

I've encountered a bit of that at cons but it never occured to me that these guys carried the "fratboy" role to interactions with coworkers.

It probably SHOULD have considering a few of the stories I've heard.

It does bother me a bit that there seems to be a "Geek Mafia" attitude permeating from the industry.

You scratch a little bit and the shakedowns and drug deals and hookups and confrontations don't really seem terribly professional or artistic, to me anyway.

I know the big money isn't in comics but it's a little disheartening that except for the product they produce, a lot of the people in the industry aren't any farther along the existential ladder than a particularly bright restaurant staff or maybe the lecturers at a halfway decent community college. You still have conmen and sexaholics and junkies. But that doesn't mean everybody's crooked either.

There's an old adage that comic professionals are generally childish or childlike. I'd prefer more of the latter but anything with pictures and words is gonna attract a few more childish people than words alone.

And unlike the motion picture business, I'd wager that everybody in comics is at least semi-literate.

I mean, there have been big Hollywood types who literally couldn't manage to read a picture book out loud. Being in comics generally requires at least that level of literacy...

And there are some amazingly cool people in this business. Honestly, having met a lot of these folks, I imagine one of the biggest perks of the business is the cool people you get to hang out with in a string of hotel lobbies over the summer.

Some of these folks are angry geeks, pseudo-jocks, bullies and misanthropes. They thrive on being "better" than other people or getting the best of other people.

But some of them are incredibly well-read, incredibly cutting edge people who have these tremendously fun and intellectual observations on life. There are some amazing, egalitarian, democratic, intelligent, civilized circles in the comics. Genuine futurists. Genuine romantics. Genuine poets and scholars.

There aren't too many "average" folk in the business anymore but I like to think that for every person out to con you out of your life savings or get into your sister's pants, for every guy who degrades women, there is also at least one person who is so far ahead of the curve that it's scary. People who are just so nice and civilized and cosmopolitan and intellectual that they just seem ahead of the times to the point where you wonder how they'd function as anything other than artists of some kind.

[Jack Zodiac]

Originally Posted by the4thpip

Again, you're having a conversation with yourself. I'm wondering if it really can be true that there are so few women trying to break into the business. Tryinng. This is not about being rejected by the big 2.

What I think it is, is that Marvel's, of course, judging it by how many submissions they get. There is, of course, plenty of women working in the indie scene. They either don't care about mainstream superhero comics and would rather preserve their artistic expression with their own creations and stay in the indie scene, or know how much of a hassle it is to break into the big leagues and wind up having to deal with worse editors and guidelines to follow. So, there are plenty of women in the business, and more breaking into it slowly all the time, but they probably just don't care about taking off in a major company.

That, or they all think Marvel sucks. :D

[Corrina]

Speaking for myself only....

I'd like to write superhero comics and I'm fairly sure I have some talent. But my time to write is limited. So I have to evaluate where I have the best shot to make money and build a career.

Should I spent time and effort trying to break into an industry that runs the gamut between somewhat resistant, perhaps at an unconscious level, to very resistant to female creators? Or should I spent my time and energy trying to break into an industry that has the most supportive group of female writers/editors/agents I've ever met. And where, coincidentally, I stand a better eventual chance of making more money?

My answer is prose writing, genre fiction with romantic elements. I can only bang my head agains the wall so much between working on craft and submissions that inevitably result in rejections. Becoming a paid fiction writer has enough pitfalls, to my mind. Why should I choose an industry that has yet another layer of resistance?

But that's just me. Other writers could feel differently. And maybe I don't have the proper calling for comics, either. But I know if I did want to write superheroes, I'd go to friends with smaller, independent companies first, and then DC--which I've heard is more...hmm...need to use the right words....more of a standard professional working atmosphere. More corporate, some would say. But I'm leery of the atmosphere that Gail described at Marvel. I've heard enough that it certainly wouldn't be my first choice.

Not that starting at the top seems to be a good choice anyway for creators of either gender. It seems doing good, independent work on a consistent basis is my impression of the way to go.

[Magneto_X]

Corrina:

There are several dozen indy publishers that have websites that you can submit to.

Hell, Stone Dragon Press does that *and* does small press book publishing, too.

[Damo]

Originally Posted by Corrina

Speaking for myself only....

I'd like to write superhero comics and I'm fairly sure I have some talent. But my time to write is limited. So I have to evaluate where I have the best shot to make money and build a career.

Should I spent time and effort trying to break into an industry that runs the gamut between somewhat resistant, perhaps at an unconscious level, to very resistant to female creators? Or should I spent my time and energy trying to break into an industry that has the most supportive group of female writers/editors/agents I've ever met. And where, coincidentally, I stand a better eventual chance of making more money?

My answer is prose writing, genre fiction with romantic elements. I can only bang my head agains the wall so much between working on craft and submissions that inevitably result in rejections. Becoming a paid fiction writer has enough pitfalls, to my mind. Why should I choose an industry that has yet another layer of resistance?

But that's just me. Other writers could feel differently. And maybe I don't have the proper calling for comics, either. But I know if I did want to write superheroes, I'd go to friends with smaller, independent companies first, and then DC--which I've heard is more...hmm...need to use the right words....more of a standard professional working atmosphere. More corporate, some would say. But I'm leery of the atmosphere that Gail described at Marvel. I've heard enough that it certainly wouldn't be my first choice.

Not that starting at the top seems to be a good choice anyway for creators of either gender. It seems doing good, independent work on a consistent basis is my impression of the way to go.

Mir, that you?

Sorry. ^^() My best friend gave me almost the exact same rant the other day (only with more swears). She has this dream of one day being on that Wizard "ten best writers/artists" page of the month, and is super frustrated because she feels like she already has no chance because she's female.

[heystacy]

I spoke to several ladies in SCAD's sequential art program. One student told me nearly all the females draw in a manga-inspired style. Manga speaks to many female readers. They love the style and subject matter. Can't say I blame women for looking for alternate routes in comics.

Hell, I'm starting to look at different routes as far as publishing and writing goes.

[heystacy]

Originally Posted by Gail Simone

I think it's more likely that aspiring female writers know that Marvel isn't their best shot.

I like Marvel. I have a lot of friends at Marvel. But there is definitely a Howard Stern/partytime/fratboy/strip club element.

Again, I like Marvel. But when I was there, it was INEVITABLE that every female who left or was let go would be referred to as a 'crazy bitch' at some point. I don't blame any one person for it, but it is something that could bite them in the ass if they're not careful.

And on the flipside, big kudos to editors like Mike Marts who could NOT have been more gracious and welcoming. And Joe Quesada has been nothing but nice to me as well. It's not the individuals, it's just sort of an institutionalized faux 'badboys' environment, to my mind.

As a final cavaet, let me add that it's been some years since I was there and it all may have changed since then.

Gail

Didn't realize at one point it was that crazy. Weird and sad at the same time.

[Corrina]

Originally Posted by Damo

Mir, that you?

Sorry. ^^() My best friend gave me almost the exact same rant the other day (only with more swears). She has this dream of one day being on that Wizard "ten best writers/artists" page of the month, and is super frustrated because she feels like she already has no chance because she's female.

Oh, I don't think I have *no* chance. I have a pretty healthy writing ego. I think you have to, to put up with so much resistance trying to get publishing in any forum. There were some people who went through a decade of rejection after rejection before becoming bestselling authors. Susan Elizabeth Philipps, who writes romantic comedies, was given a lifetime achievement award at my conference. Her last words in the acceptance speech were directed to everyone who'd ever rejected her:

"BIG MISTAKE!!!"

RWA has cool people. Remind me to tell Nora Roberts story about her stalking fan and the contention she wrote filthy books.

Anyway, it's just that prose seems a more productive use of my energy right now to veer in another direction. But once the kids are back in school, I really wanna try a comic script, just to learn something new. I wouldn't have high hopes for it, because, like anything else, learning something new takes practice. The question after that, though, is whether to spend time practicing comic scripts or back to my prose stuff.

Maybe I can be Tamora Pierce or Brad Meltzer and come back and write comics when I'm rich and famous. That'll take, oh, several decades or so. :)

I have a friend who writes terrific superhero scripts and has been published by an indy publisher but she also writes screenplays and has put more energy there--mostly because there's more eventual money, I think.

[the4thpip]

Originally Posted by Gail Simone

I think it's more likely that aspiring female writers know that Marvel isn't their best shot.

I like Marvel. I have a lot of friends at Marvel. But there is definitely a Howard Stern/partytime/fratboy/strip club element.

Again, I like Marvel. But when I was there, it was INEVITABLE that every female who left or was let go would be referred to as a 'crazy bitch' at some point. I don't blame any one person for it, but it is something that could bite them in the ass if they're not careful.

And on the flipside, big kudos to editors like Mike Marts who could NOT have been more gracious and welcoming. And Joe Quesada has been nothing but nice to me as well. It's not the individuals, it's just sort of an institutionalized faux 'badboys' environment, to my mind.

As a final cavaet, let me add that it's been some years since I was there and it all may have changed since then.

Gail

That's disappointing to hear, to say the least.

What publishers would you say are the "best shot" for up and coming female creators then?

[Patience]

See, to me it always seemed like a better idea to build a portfolio at some of the smaller companies and THEN go to Marvel or DC with your ideas. I haven't had much time to write, but it seemed to me a better idea to go to a smaller company first and get some published material to show the editors.

[AdoraSpintriae]

Originally Posted by Magneto_X

Comics are more than just super-heroes. The indie scene is proof enough that there are plenty of female creators out there just working in different genres. That's also possibly why manga gets so much girls & women in their readership. The "mainstream" of the industry doesn't have much interest in them or appeal to them.

Even in the indy scene, the gender ratio far favours men over women. But what happens in the indy scene is fairly irelevant, since we're discussing companies such as Marvel, as per the original quote. And, as I said, these companies don't appeal to women, and don't want to, much to their detrement. You'd think an industry scrambling for readership would be more intelligent and trying to create new markets (yes, even in the indy audiences).

Frankly, the reliance on the independant publishing scene is as much of a detrement as it is a help for women creators. Sure, you're more likely to get published, but the indy scene has as many limitations on what they publish as the mainstream comics. What if you do want to write the Avengers, or Superman? You can't do that in the indy scene, and the payoff of work-to-publicity turns off a lot of people, no matter what their gender. You have to work a hell of a lot harder in those scenes to get the slightest bit of decent publicity, and in terms of women writers going from said indy scene into mainstream comics, well, DC would obviously rather hire Jodi Picoult, a well-known mainstream literature writer, than any potential women writers who may or may not be knocking at their doors.

I'm not saying don't publish independent comics, or that, for some women comic writers, it's a good avenue. But for a lot, the limitations on that genre are as much of a turn-off as just trying to go straight for the major companies. There's pros and cons on all sides. Nothing is a magic-wand fix.