INFINITE CRISIS: Chronologies *SPOILERS*

[sudoku]

Hi guys!

Another nicely reasoned timeline, Lawman. I won't debate the specifics, but I'll take this opportunity to mention a couple things I have observed (or questioned) in recent weeks.

The Green Arrow arc is a bit confusing. The bulk of the story (from the end of GA 52 onward) covers a single 24-hour period with no breaks, and, as Lawman says, it must occur after IC. However, issue 52 also includes a scene on the JLA Watchtower that must be pre-Sacrifice, and issue 53 includes references to the JLA that strongly suggest the story is pre-Crisis of Conscience. But the preponderance of evidence requires a creative explanation for those JLA references, as well as a (somewhat illogical) multi-week gap between the Watchtower scene in issue 52 and the end of the story. I suspect that the decision to place the story post-IC was made late in the arc's run in order to allow Winick the opportunity to end on a cliffhanger without disrupting GA and Speedy's appearances elsewhere.

Now that Rebirth [edit: Recharge] is over, has anyone read it? (I only read the first issue, and scimmed the last couple pages of the final issue.) Does it give any indication of the amount of time that passes? The story appears to be intended to take place somewhere between the first issues of RTW and IC 1. (Note that Guy Gardner is on OA in IC 1 (and GL 7), and he doesn't get there until Recharge 1; Also, Rayner references his meeting with Captain Comet in Recharge 1.) It is difficult to place the Polaris scene in IC 1. It could take place between pages in Hawkman 48 (which is continuous from RTW 6 and Hawkman 47) or it could take place as late as moments before the arrival of Donna Troy. The repetition of dialogue among RTW 6, IC 1, and RTW Special further confuses this placement, as each story appears to depict the characters' first encounter with the spacial anomaly. They seem to take place within moments of each other despite the fact that the Hawkman issues show that days must pass between them.

At any rate, the scene on the Watchtower in Recharge 1 must be apocryphal.

Also, I have trouble placing GL 9 during the Crisis. (Note that Bruce and Ollie appear to be on speaking terms, per Hal's comment - something that didn't happen until IC 6.) I suspect the story takes place immediately after the Crisis, but before Batman leaves for his year-long world tour. I assume IC 7 will show us whether such a thing is possible or not.

I also have held back on placing the final issues of Gotham Central. Due to the absence of Dealdy Sins floating around Gotham, I believe that they must take place at least a day after the Day of Vengeance Special (with the IC scene of the Spectre being placed in Crispus Allen's body taking place out-of-sequence). But I must go back to see if there is enough time to force those issues in between DOV Special and the Spectre's appearance in IC 6.

Although I posted differently elsewhere, I agree that the Titans Annual requires that the Chemo/Bludhaven battle (shown in Adv 648) must take place over the course of an entire day. This is good, however, as it gives both Dick and Lupe Leocadio more time to recuperate, and it answers the question of what Superman was doing during the Superboy battle.

Thoughts?

[PaulTiberius]

I admit I haven't caught up on my JSA Classified reading since the Power Girl arc ended -- where was the NYE reference?

As for Green Arrow, I have read the latest arc (although I skimmed some of it, so I didn't catch a Halloween reference -- where was it?), and time of year aside, IMHO the only thing that makes sense is for the whole story -- the damage to Dr. Light II, Connor, Mia, and Ollie himself -- takes place after the end of Infinite Crisis, since all of those characters have been seen hale and hearty throughout the mini-series. Presumably right after, though, since the first OYL issue marks the "anniversary" of the explosions in Star City.

I believe it was JSA:Classified #5&6 that was the Flash/Wildcat story. It was clearly set during the Crisis, and one of the central themes of the two issues was that it was New Year's Eve. Not a throwaway reference at all, but lots of trappings of drinking yourself silly on the night and remembering heroes lost during the year.

My thoughts on the Green Arrow arc are similar; it must take place after events we're currently seeing in IC. The Halloween reference was on a poster on the wall of Mia's school, just one panel and one issue I think, and there were copious amounts of fall leaves blowing in the wind.

By the way, I'm not taking any of the OYL references to be literal. I'm assuming one year *more or less*, although you may be right that Green Arrow OYL references a one-year "anniversary." I can't remember.

[PaulTiberius]

Sudoku, you need to edit your post at the top of this page. You say "Rebirth" everywhere, when you actually mean "GLC: Recharge." :)

All of the conundrums between RTW, GLC:R, GL and Hawkman are, indeed, hard to puzzle through. I will try to give my Chronology another pass in a couple of weeks when my life settles down! :)

[sudoku]

Sudoku, you need to edit your post at the top of this page. You say "Rebirth" everywhere, when you actually mean "GLC: Recharge." :)

Ack!

Thanks :)

[lawman]

Thanks for all the thoughtful commentary, everyone!

The Green Arrow arc is a bit confusing. The bulk of the story (from the end of GA 52 onward) covers a single 24-hour period with no breaks, and, as Lawman says, it must occur after IC. However, issue 52 also includes a scene on the JLA Watchtower that must be pre-Sacrifice, and issue 53 includes references to the JLA that strongly suggest the story is pre-Crisis of Conscience. But the preponderance of evidence requires a creative explanation for those JLA references, as well as a (somewhat illogical) multi-week gap between the Watchtower scene in issue 52 and the end of the story...

Hmm. I confess I don't have GA #52-53 (or several earlier issues), as I'd grown bored with Winick's writing on the character and dropped the book for a while... so I've tried to do some catching up online. As I see it (and please correct me if I'm off track), GA #47-50 (and the opening of #52, after a fill-in in #51) -- featuring Drakon, Riddler, etc., and ending with the bombing of Ollie's house -- all take place in unbroken sequence, and must occur during the second week after Mia joined the Titans in GA #46 (i.e., after the Dr. Light story in Titans #21-23, but before the Titans/Outsiders crossover in #24-25, and thus -- get this! -- during a hidden continuity break in Outsiders #20... since the GA tale features the Outsiders, including Indigo). Moreoever, it's all the same week that Ted Kord went investigating in Countdown.

Then #52 picks up "two weeks later," per caption, on the Watchtower... thus, a gap big enough to include all of Countdown and OMAC Project. (From what I've read, I'm not clear on why this would need to be pre-Sacrifice, though.)

So: where might another gap best fit? Perhaps just before the final pages of #52, where Black Lightning appears? Because (after another fill-in in #53) issues 54-59 clearly and unavoidably follow Infinite Crisis.

Now that Rebirth [edit: Recharge] is over, has anyone read it? (I only read the first issue, and scimmed the last couple pages of the final issue.) Does it give any indication of the amount of time that passes? The story appears to be intended to take place somewhere between the first issues of RTW and IC 1...

I'd say it falls between the last issue of RTW and InfC #1 (and clealry several days, at the very least, do pass in that gap). The Guardians in Recharge #5 note the existence of the "time-space rift in the Polaris system," which only appeared in RTW #6, and say that Kyle and Kilowog must "resume their involvement," which after all seemed unborken during RTW. This is corroborated by Kyle's remark in Recharge #1 about having met Captain Comet, which he did during RTW.

The only problem, then (aside from asking why exactly Kyle and Kilowog left Polaris in the first place, given the state of affairs there!), is: since RTW includes Hawkman and thus unavoidably follows "Crisis of Conscience" and the dissolution of the League in JLA #115-119, what's up with the Watchtower gathering in Recharge #1? You say "At any rate, the scene on the Watchtower in Recharge 1 must be apocryphal." I dislike that, but IMHO, we can only wave this away by supposing the other Leaguers set their differences aside long enough to have a special farewell gathering for Kyle.

Also, I have trouble placing GL 9 during the Crisis... I suspect the story takes place immediately after the Crisi

Could be. But if not, we can squeeze it in there if we have to.

I also have held back on placing the final issues of Gotham Central. Due to the absence of Dealdy Sins floating around Gotham, I believe that they must take place at least a day after the Day of Vengeance Special...

Except that we saw (in JLA #125 and Outsiders #29) that the Sins didn't stick around Gotham for very long anyway; they headed out west. What bothers me more is the lack of rubble and destruction, but that's a problem no matter what day you choose. IMHO, after Sunday's major events, Cris went out investigating on Monday night and got killed on Tuesday night (GC #38), then his killing was investigated on Wednesday, with a service planned for Thursday (GC #39-40).

believe it was JSA:Classified #5&6 that was the Flash/Wildcat story. It was clearly set during the Crisis, and one of the central themes of the two issues was that it was New Year's Eve. Not a throwaway reference at all...

Actually, that was JSAC #8-9. And while it was clearly NYE, IMHO the story was vague enough about what "crisis" the other JSAers were busy with that we don't have to interpret it as occurring during InfC (although that was clearly the intended implication). It just doesn't fit well into the larger story, nor does the larger story fit well at that time of year. It does clearly have to follow the events of JSA #73-75, though, given the references to the MIA magical characters.

(Which, BTW, makes JSAC #5-7 problematic -- the Injustice Society story spans at least a couple of weeks -- and has to occur after "Crisis of Conscience," given the Wizard's role -- yet it includes Jakeem, who was missing during that period and not rescued until the midst of Infinite Crisis itself. IMHO this is another one that actually has to fall after InfC #7.)

By the way, I'm not taking any of the OYL references to be literal. I'm assuming one year *more or less*, although you may be right that Green Arrow OYL references a one-year "anniversary."

Well, yes, Didio's been frank enough about that, and at any rate the multiple appearances of Nightwing, Robin and a few others make it clear that not all OYL stories start at the exact same point. In general, we don't have enough evidence yet to get more specific. However, GA #60 begins with the words, "It has been one year... one year exactly since the Amsterdam Disaster struck Star City," which seems clear enough.

[PaulTiberius]

AAuuuggghh!!! Too much work for me to catch up on! Lawman, as you know from my chronology, I only place a small hidden continuity gap in Outsiders #20 to allow for "Lights Out." I do put a week's gap in between #20 and #21 (which has both major problems and major advantages) to allow for the Green Arrow arc "New Business."

I agree with Sudoku that the JLA gathering in Recharge #1 must be heavily apocryphal.

[sudoku]

GA #47-50 (and the opening of #52, after a fill-in in #51) -- featuring Drakon, Riddler, etc., and ending with the bombing of Ollie's house -- all take place in unbroken sequence, and must occur during the second week after Mia joined the Titans in GA #46 (i.e., after the Dr. Light story in Titans #21-23, but before the Titans/Outsiders crossover in #24-25, and thus -- get this! -- during a hidden continuity break in Outsiders #20... since the GA tale features the Outsiders, including Indigo).

This is similar to how Paul has it, but I tend to think the GA story takes place before Lights Out, because of Arsenal's initial hostile reaction to the news that Speedy joined the Titans in GA - and his apparent eventual approval (via the gift of the quiver) in Lights Out.

I would place the GA story in the "three weeks" gap in Outsiders 17 (right at the end of the gap), although, to allow for events in War Games and Nightwing (the beginning of Outsiders 17 occurs simultaneously with the early part of Identity Crisis), that 3 week gap probably must actually be a bit longer than three weeks.

Then #52 picks up "two weeks later," per caption, on the Watchtower... thus, a gap big enough to include all of Countdown and OMAC Project. (From what I've read, I'm not clear on why this would need to be pre-Sacrifice, though.)

Batman appears in the Watchtower scene and seems friendly toward Ollie, but by the end of OMAC, he has fully figured out the truth about the mindwipe and the next time he sees the Leaguers (in Crisis of Conscience), he acts very hostile toward them. Logically, the scene in GA must occur before Batman puts all the pieces together in the final issues of OMAC.

So: where might another gap best fit? Perhaps just before the final pages of #52, where Black Lightning appears? Because (after another fill-in in #53) issues 54-59 clearly and unavoidably follow Infinite Crisis.

Agreed! However, Winick seems confused about this, as, in issue 53, Black Lightning and GA refer to the JLA as if it still exists, and GA suggests that none of the Leaguers trust each other.

I'd say it falls between the last issue of RTW and InfC #1 (and clealry several days, at the very least, do pass in that gap). The Guardians in Recharge #5 note the existence of the "time-space rift in the Polaris system," which only appeared in RTW #6, and say that Kyle and Kilowog must "resume their involvement," which after all seemed unborken during RTW. This is corroborated by Kyle's remark in Recharge #1 about having met Captain Comet, which he did during RTW.

That seems pretty reasonable. But how do figure on the gap between RTW 6 and IC 1? Forgive me if you've explained it before and I've forgotton.

Except that we saw (in JLA #125 and Outsiders #29) that the Sins didn't stick around Gotham for very long anyway; they headed out west.

I think the editorial note in JLA 125 got this sequence reversed. My interpretation was that Sabbacc took control of the Sins as soon as they were freed from the Rock of Eternity (possibly even before it exploded, like Mordru), and once he was removed as their host by Katana's sword, they were drawn back to the Rock which was (mostly) in Gotham. That would explain why they were there for the Day of Vengeance special.

(Which, BTW, makes JSAC #5-7 problematic -- the Injustice Society story spans at least a couple of weeks -- and has to occur after "Crisis of Conscience," given the Wizard's role -- yet it includes Jakeem, who was missing during that period and not rescued until the midst of Infinite Crisis itself. IMHO this is another one that actually has to fall after InfC #7.)

Agreed!

[steve2275]

..........thanks

[lawman]

This is similar to how Paul has it, but I tend to think the GA story takes place before Lights Out, because of Arsenal's initial hostile reaction to the news that Speedy joined the Titans in GA - and his apparent eventual approval (via the gift of the quiver) in Lights Out.

Hmm. A valid point... but OTOH, if that's the sequence, why would Ollie's suspicions for the bombing immediately turn to Dr. Light, of all people?

Batman appears in the Watchtower scene and seems friendly toward Ollie, but by the end of OMAC, he has fully figured out the truth about the mindwipe and the next time he sees the Leaguers (in Crisis of Conscience), he acts very hostile toward them. Logically, the scene in GA must occur before Batman puts all the pieces together in the final issues of OMAC.

You have the advantage of me because, as I noted, I don't have the issue handy... but "logic" aside, given how busy everyone is earlier, is it at least possible to envision this scene taking place post-OMAC Project?

That seems pretty reasonable. But how do figure on the gap between RTW 6 and IC 1? Forgive me if you've explained it before and I've forgotton.

Well, as you note in your own post above, the Hawkman issues suggest it just as strongly as the Recharge issues (notwithstanding dialogue overlaps in various short scenes). If you're asking how long I think the gap is, though, I honestly can't claim to have a clear idea. "As long as necessary, but no longer?"

I think the editorial note in JLA 125 got this sequence reversed. My interpretation was that Sabbacc took control of the Sins as soon as they were freed from the Rock of Eternity (possibly even before it exploded, like Mordru), and once he was removed as their host by Katana's sword, they were drawn back...

Can't agree with you there. I'd say they started in Gotham, but spread out as soon as they got the chance, until they were forcibly drawn back.

But, hey, it sounds like we're in agreement on all the broad strokes -- just niggling over the little details here!

[lawman]

And it's officially over now.

so, just to wrap up, picking up from where post #103 left off...

Day 8 (Saturday)
InfC #6 (wee hours?) (Batman's team takes out Brother I; Dick & Conner defeat Alex & SB-Prime; Conner dies)
Villains United Special (starts around dawn) (Society frees villains from prisons worldwide, sends them to Metropolis)
-- note slight inconsistency in Arkham scene re: time of day for heroes returned from Batman's orbital team, vs. Omac Special scene
InfC #7 (showdown with villains in Metropolis; SB Prime escapes into space, then is defeated)

Day 9 (Sunday)
Omac Project Special (Sasha defeats remnant of Brother I in Saudi Arabia)
-- day after her return, allowing for international travel time

Day 10 (Monday)
Day 11 (Tuesday)
IMHO the best place for Green Arrow #54-59, and any other stories that need to fall immediately after InfC

Day 12 (Wednesday)
InfC #7 (epilogue 1) (Alexander Luthor killed)
-- note dateline on newspaper. (And shouldn't someone as smart as he is know better than to walk alone into a dark alley in Gotham City at night?...)

Day 13 (Thursday)
InfC #7 (epilogue 2) (Diana, Clark, and Bruce part ways).

What say you all?

[Omac70]

Apologies for digging up an old thread... But having spent most of this year buying up issues related to IC, and trying to sort them into a rough order before reading them, I thought my post best belonged here.

This thread has been fascinating reading, and I'm pleased to see that I haven't been too far out with my own ordering (altough I have tended to seperate the mini-series leading into IC - Omac, etc. - rather than attempt to cross them over). A couple of questions:

Has anyone come up with a good placement for all of Supergirl 1-5 yet? IIRC, dialogue in issue 1 suggests that it takes place after JSA 73-75 (75 being the first instance of PG losing control of her powers?) so I guess those 5 issues can fit somewhere between the JSA arc and the main narrative of DOV?

Also, there's three arcs I'm looking at buying before I go any further - I prefer to read first time through in order if given the chance, so I've caught up on other stuff whilst waiting for certain issues to arrive. The arcs in question are:

JSA 73-75 (+ perhaps the DOV tie-ins after that)
Firestorm 17-22
Hawkman 46-49

Of these, which are (a) a good read (b) worth getting to enhance the whole IC experience, now that I'm finally about to embark on reading the main event?

[PaulTiberius]

Has anyone come up with a good placement for all of Supergirl 1-5 yet? IIRC, dialogue in issue 1 suggests that it takes place after JSA 73-75 (75 being the first instance of PG losing control of her powers?) so I guess those 5 issues can fit somewhere between the JSA arc and the main narrative of DOV?

Supergirl #1 is shortly after JSA Classified #1, and so probably after JSA:C #1-4. The whole Supergirl #1-5 arc covers quite a bit of time and involves the Outsiders, Teen Titans, Luthor (green battle suit) and the Trinity. I haven't tried to make complete sense of it in the overall timeline, and I'm afraid it would never perfectly fit.

JSA 73-75 (+ perhaps the DOV tie-ins after that)
Firestorm 17-22
Hawkman 46-49

Of these, which are (a) a good read (b) worth getting to enhance the whole IC experience, now that I'm finally about to embark on reading the main event?

The JSA arc is a great read, and fits with Day of Vengeance well. I went into the details of how they fit together quite a bit on my original 3-part SBC chronology work here: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.co...1636757544.htm

Go to Part 2 and I detail it about halfway down. The rest of the JSA stuff up through OYL is good reading, but not absolutely necessary to the IC tapestry.

Firestorm #17 picks up immediately after the action in Villains United #4, and I recommend you read them together. Issues #18-20 are also important tie-ins to one degree or another, including the recruitment of Firestorm to Donna Troy's space team.

Firestorm #21-22 are set during IC #4.

The Hawkman issues are problemmatic and not as enjoyable as the others you asked about, in my opinion.

Hawkman #46 is intended to be the break point where the Hawks head off for the Rann/Thanagar War, and should be read before that miniseries.

Hawkman #47-49 are set during the R/T War or Crisis, but I've never tried to make sense of it, as I don't think there's really room for them to fit well.

You're making me want to go back and re-read the whole thing myself! :)

[sudoku]

Hi everybody!

Supergirl #1 is shortly after JSA Classified #1, and so probably after JSA:C #1-4. The whole Supergirl #1-5 arc covers quite a bit of time and involves the Outsiders, Teen Titans, Luthor (green battle suit) and the Trinity. I haven't tried to make complete sense of it in the overall timeline, and I'm afraid it would never perfectly fit.

Actually, Supergirl 1 takes place sometime (probably weeks) before JSA Classified. JSA Classified leads directly into Infinite Crisis. By the time JSAC 4 is over, Supergirl has already been recruited by Donna Troy. And from JSA 77, we know that Power Girl doesn't rejoin the JSA between JSAC 1 and Infinite Crisis 2.

I think Jeph Loeb intended Supergirl 2-5 to take place around the same time as Countdown to Infinite Crisis. It is clearly intended to be post-"The Insiders" and pre-Sacrifice. If one accepts Greg Rucka's timing, that places it in a small 3 day window. Supergirl 2-5 takes place over 4 days, so that is almost possible.

If one accepts Geoff John's timing, however (that a month passes between Insiders and Sacrifice), then there is plenty of space for Supergirl 1-5 to fall.

Of course, there's still one inconsistency - Nightwing is a member of the Outsiders in Supergirl 3, which takes place after the "Insiders," when Nightwing quit the team. Jeph Loeb shares an office with Geoff Johns, but not Judd Winick, so he may have missed this note.

Hawkman #47-49 are set during the R/T War or Crisis, but I've never tried to make sense of it, as I don't think there's really room for them to fit well.

I haven't read these issues in a while, but as I recall, they pick up moments after the close of RTW 6, and cover about a day and a half, more or less bridging the gap to the arrival of Donna Troy's team and the RTW Special.

Now that it's all over, the only series I was unable to make fit were "JLA: World without a Justice League," and "GLC: Recharge," which were enjoyable as independent stories, but seemed pretty illogical when held up to the bigger picture.

[PaulTiberius]

Actually, Supergirl 1 takes place sometime (probably weeks) before JSA Classified.

Hey, Ed!

You're 100% right on this particular item. I'm an idiot. I looked right at my note that I entered when I first read the issues, and it says, "JSA Classified is after Sg #1." And then I got it upside down in my post above. Sheesh.

[Omac70]

Apologies again for digging up this thread! :)

I remember at the time having some difficulties with my post, and I didn't think it had got through... I've just revisited this thread tonight.

Thank you, Paul - and Sudoku - for taking the time to reply. As it turned out, I read Supergirl 1-5 before the first part of the Classified Power Girl story - but unfortunately placed JSA 73-75 between those two (along with the first few issues of DOV). Didn't make perfect sense that way of course - better to have the JSA issues before PG meets Supergirl - but there was nothing to make me scratch my head too much.

Also ended up getting the Hawkman issues, reading the first before RTW began and placing the others either side of IC3.

Now that it's all over, the only series I was unable to make fit were "JLA: World without a Justice League"...

I don't think there's any way to make it perfectly gel with everything else, but the best I could manage was to place those first 4 issues of the story between Adventures Of Superman 645 (watchtower explodes) and Superman 223 (Supergirl says goodbye after having been recruited by Donna). Since there seems to be no other placement for the JLA arc, we just have to assume that Superman's visit to the moon in IC1 isn't his first - or as others have said, that sequence doesn't run concurrently with others in the comic.

Since that gap between AOS 645 and IC1 has to be there, that's also where I've placed the last 2 issues of DOV (rock explodes over Gotham, leading into IC1) and then the last 2 issues of the JLA arc come after IC1 itself. There isn't really room between JLA 123 & 124 for all those above events to happen - even if they're occuring at the same time - but because of Supergirl and the rock of eternity exploding, there's not much else to do with them.

You're making me want to go back and re-read the whole thing myself!

Yeah - I'm finally getting somewhere (after more than a hundred issues of build-up) and am just past IC1. Having acquired all the issues I want and being able to read them in (something like) the right order only adds to a pleasurable experience. Enjoying it so far.