INFINITE CRISIS: Chronologies *SPOILERS*

[lawman]

One more bit...

Otherwise, you have Lois returning to America for no good reason, in between her trips to Umec and Europe.

It annoyed me too, but on reflection, I think it actually makes some sense. She went to Umec, learned the shooter was from Checkmate, and returned to the U.S. to talk to Diana (based on what she'd heard from Clark). Once there, she learned to her frustration that Diana was actually off to the Hague -- so the next day, she hopped another flight there herself (or asked Clark to take her), talked to Diana, then made a final short trip down to Geneva before returning home.

Either way, though -- even if you drop Action #532 out at your own discretion, Lois' appearance in the hague still helps set the overall timeframe.

BTW, I still don't think the TV caption in Titans #29 can be made to fit -- or that it's a major problem, anyway. (Maybe Cassie was so shocked, she was watching the coverage again on TiVo? :))

[PaulTiberius]

The Clark/Conner issue? I just flipped through it again, and I didn't see a single specific chronological reference.

The dependencies come from Superman #218 and #221, bracketing the Clark/Conner issue (and the "One month later" reference) within a space of a few days, no more. Superman's meltdown moment in #218 is still all the buzz on the Metropolis news in #221, as well as something he and Lois are worrying over, and only makes sense at all if it is just a couple days later. Even so, I have it a week later in my chronology.

I still maintain that it's usually easier to find space for "gaps" than it is to crunch longer events down. (I take my cues here from the approach George Olshevsky used so judiciously in his classic Official Marvel Index series.)

You've completely lost me. :) Who??

Yes, of course. But once you allow that those "final scenes" aren't actually connected to the stories that precede them, the length of those gaps is then up for grabs.

Absolutely. It's the only way for any of us to make sense of the chronology. I would argue that making them a month or two long, however, introduces major implausibilities into the universal storyline, and at any rate, there's really not enough other events demanding a gap of more than a couple weeks (with the troubling exception of about 10 issues of Batman).

Oh -- you're a part of the "official" Pocket Books ST timeline team? Very cool. :) I'm impressed.

Now, for an encore, shall we sort out the order of all the Sherlock Holmes stories?... ;)

Well, I was one of the founding members. I even was the only one (I think) to be quoted in an interview with the Communicator magazine back in 98. But I will be the first to admit I was a junior member in terms of raw knowledge. The team has just finished the third edition of the Star Trek books chronology, and I have long since retired from the group. They have done amazing work, though!

Erm... Sherlock Holmes? You mean there's a chronology involved?

[sudoku]

Hi Lawman!

I can't express how much I have enjoyed your chronology. I have actually had your site in my favorites for many months. It's staggering in scope and an exceptional piece of work.

It serves a grander purpose than my little chronology - placing the entire history of the DCU over many years. I realized early on that my chronology fell apart for me a few weeks before the beginning of my "day 1." (mainly due to Superman's impossible chronology between Identity Crisis and Sacrifice), so I resolved to keep my focus narrow. While reading many of the IC tie-ins (especially Countdown, DoV, and Rucka's stuff), I enjoyed the fact that so many things seemed to be happening at once, and in quick succession. That led me to try to lay it out, day by day, specifically to see how short the timeframe between Countdown and IC was. My mission statement (if you could call it that) was actually to try to fit as much stuff in as short a time period as possible, because that seemed more exciting to me. (Eventually, as more and more pre-IC 1 stories were published, I realized that my two-week timeframe would probably have to be expanded to three, but I haven't gotten around to that yet.)

Based on what I've read on your site, you seem to lean more toward building a chronology that exists as close to the real-time publication dates as possible. As Paul says, chronology-making is "highly-annotated interpretation," and that allows for the vastly different conclusions we have drawn.

I don't disagree with most of the points you have raised. Much of the time it is a matter of preference for what should take precedence. But just to answer a couple questions/points of confusion:

In particular, as I noted last post, the beginning of DoV intersects with JSA #73-75, which is "last month" as of OMAC Project/JSA #76. Thus, whenever you have scenes from one of these inserted on a specific day, I'm forced to ask "why? how?"

JSA 73-75 and DoV 1 immediately follow Shazam's appearance in Countdown. Notice that in JSA 73, he already has Blue Beetle's Scarab, and he continues his conversation with Mordru.

Although this forces JSA 75 and 76 to be only days apart, it fortunately does not "break" the "last month" comment, since "last month" does not equal "one month ago." It simply requires that JSA 75 ended on one of the last days of the month, and 76 takes place on one of the first days of the following month.

(My placement of Villains United is mostly based on its relation to Firestorm and Birds of Prey, and not directly to anything in Countdown.)

I think the Superman/Ruin arc in Adventures #636-640 also belongs weeks earlier -- prior to the "Vanishing" and the whole "For Tomorrow" arc, which itself leads into Superman #217 (with an additional break of "three weeks").

The news article in Adventures 641 places the story the day after Adventures 640. 641 also must take place after Superman 217 (because of the OMAC reference). This is what I mean about Superman's impossible chronology. Even if the article is supposed to be "old news," it seems unlikely that Clark would go off and have weeks or months of adventures without going to see his friend Pete in prison (and coincidently on the same day he's being interrogated by the police for the first time). At any rate, a time gap here is less interesting dramatically. (For clarity's sake, I stuffed Superman 217 and 218 in the short gap between Adventures 636 and 637 (along with Lightning Strikes Twice).)

heck, just the stories in Batman's own titles after Red Hood's unamsking -- including the Hush/Clayface arc, "War Crimes," and the second Red Hood arc, among others -- easily occupy a month based on internal references!)

I keep forgetting to mention this - so now seems like a good a time as any: I would almost certainly place "War Crimes" before "Under the Hood," due to the Joker's appearances in both stories, the lack of references to Jason Todd in War Crimes, and the fact that it directly follows up the events of War Games.

[sudoku]

I should note that while I was writing that last post, you guys posted about ten more. So my post may sound like nonsense now. Going back to read the others!

[lawman]

...Superman's meltdown moment in #218 is still all the buzz on the Metropolis news in #221, as well as something he and Lois are worrying over, and only makes sense at all if it is just a couple days later.

I just re-read #221, and I can honestly say I have no idea what you're referring to here. I can't help thinking it must be something fairly oblique...

You've completely lost me. :) Who??

You've never read George Olshevky's Official Marvel Index titles from the '80s? Shame on you -- get thyself over to eBay, pronto! Published by Marvel itself -- multi-volume, heavily annotated indices -- with detailed chronology! -- of the complete runs of FF, Spider-Man, Avengers, X-Men, and a few other titles (up through about 1980)! He blazed the trail for all of us who do this kinda stuff.

...at any rate, there's really not enough other events demanding a gap of more than a couple weeks (with the troubling exception of about 10 issues of Batman).

Well, that's quite an exception to swallow. Don't forget Gotham Knights and a couple of issues of 'Tec, too -- unless you want to force them all back pre-Countdown?

Erm... Sherlock Holmes? You mean there's a chronology involved?

About 17 of 'em, actually. :) The most famous is probably William Baring-Gould's version in his classic Annotated Sherlock Holmes from 1967, but this site will give you a nice introduction... and here's another one. You don't know what you're missing!

Now, some brief asides on the central topic...

I've started reading your SBC piece. Very compelling narrative summary, I must say! But much of your "four week" frame really seems to rest on reading Diana's remark in JLA #118, that she's been "coming to this temple every day for the past week," to mean that Max's death was only a week earlier. I hope it doesn't seem disingenuous for me to say that I simply don't read it that way.

Furthermore, while I hadn't actually read Firestorm #19, and I can see how the "last week" remark there would restrict things, I'd be inclined to disregard it (or reinterpret as "the other week"), given the need to accommodate -- as you note! -- not only the whole Rann/Than War but also Deadshot's healing in VU #6, and the Batman stories just discussed.

Finally -- I don't have WW #218 handy at the moment. Please refresh my memory as to what was in it that was so problematic?

More later, I'm sure!...

[lawman]

Hi Lawman!

I can't express how much I have enjoyed your chronology. I have actually had your site in my favorites for many months. It's staggering in scope and an exceptional piece of work.

*Blush!*

My mission statement (if you could call it that) was actually to try to fit as much stuff in as short a time period as possible, because that seemed more exciting to me.

Well, given that explicit agenda, I must admit you've pulled it off admirably. Different starting premises will lead us to different conclusions, no doubt about it.

JSA 73-75 and DoV 1 immediately follow Shazam's appearance in Countdown. Notice that in JSA 73, he already has Blue Beetle's Scarab, and he continues his conversation with Mordru.

Ooh, good point. I hadn't caught that. Does kinda conflict with the gap between JSA #75 and 76, though. Hmm. I must ponder.

The news article in Adventures 641 places the story the day after Adventures 640. 641 also must take place after Superman 217 (because of the OMAC reference). This is what I mean about Superman's impossible chronology. Even if the article is supposed to be "old news," it seems unlikely that Clark would go off and have weeks or months of adventures without going to see his friend Pete in prison (and coincidently on the same day he's being interrogated by the police for the first time).

Yes, I admit it does... but I wound up arranging it that way anyway. Superman #204-215 have to fit in somewhere, after all. (And FWIW, I'd tuck "Lightning Strikes Twice" pre-"For Tomorrow," out of its published sequence.

I keep forgetting to mention this - so now seems like a good a time as any: I would almost certainly place "War Crimes" before "Under the Hood," due to the Joker's appearances in both stories...

Sorry -- issue refs for "UtH"? The title doesn't ring a bell...

[sudoku]

Anyway, moving along: we finally get to Infinite Crisis...

This is a pretty good explanation that fits everything in (the biggest problems you deal with are World without a Justice League and Lois's appearances). I still feel, however, that the Rock of Eternity explodes on the same night as the Watchtower explosion, as long as one disregards World Without a Justice League as a "mythologized version" (Paul's description of "For Tomorrow") of what "actually" happened.

1) You have the Freedom Fighters' deaths four days before their bodies (and the critically-injured Damage) are found. While possible, it seems unlikely that Damage was just lying around for four days waiting for help. The next morning makes sense for me.

2) TT 29 - I prefer to think (from the way Robin stares at the moon), that Batman can't pick him up because he is on the moon at that moment, investigating the very recent explosion. (Also hard to resolve why Robin wouldn't have heard about the explosion for two days when everyone on the JLA knew immediately). Because of Donna Troy/Starfire, this would place the Watchtower explosion and Rock of Eternity explosion on the same night.

3) According to the news report Superboy sees about Luthor, Superman 224 (and thus, IC 2) must take place the same day as Teen Titans 30.

4) JSA Classified 4 takes place simultaneously with the JSA's battle with Mordru and leads directly into IC 2, but you have an extra day between the two stories. (To be fair, it would be possible, though dramatically unsatisfying, to insert such a gap before the last page of JSAC 4.)

[sudoku]

Sorry -- issue refs for "UtH"? The title doesn't ring a bell...

Under the Hood is Batman 635-638. 638 ends with Jason Todd beating the Joker and taking him prisoner. He still has him tied up as his prisoner in Batman 649 (placing the Joker's role in War Crimes before his capture in 638).

[lawman]

This is a pretty good explanation that fits everything in (the biggest problems you deal with are World without a Justice League and Lois's appearances). I still feel, however, that the Rock of Eternity explodes on the same night as the Watchtower explosion, as long as one disregards World Without a Justice League as a "mythologized version" (Paul's description of "For Tomorrow") of what "actually" happened.

I'm just not comfortable doing that, unless absolutely, unavoidably necessary; I prefer to find a way to make things fit. (As, e.g., even "For Tomorrow" does, if you merely omit the early references placing the Vanishing a full "year" earlier -- which doesn't seem to fit with the pace of the story's own internal flashbacks, anyway.)

1) You have the Freedom Fighters' deaths four days before their bodies (and the critically-injured Damage) are found. While possible, it seems unlikely that Damage was just lying around for four days waiting for help. The next morning makes sense for me.

Hmm. Well, if pressed, one could move what I listed on "Day 2" to the end of "Day 1," thus putting the WT explosion on Saturday... and/or read pgs 7-8 of InfC #2 (and pgs 1-3 as well, for that matter, with Buddy's departure) as occurring early Monday morning... thus reducing that gap quite a bit, from either end.

2) TT 29 - I prefer to think (from the way Robin stares at the moon), that Batman can't pick him up because he is on the moon at that moment, investigating the very recent explosion...

Would Bruce really take the trouble to phone Tim from the moon? More likely he's just giving him an update to say he's busy, in Gotham, trying to decode what happened to J'onn.

3) According to the news report Superboy sees about Luthor, Superman 224 (and thus, IC 2) must take place the same day as Teen Titans 30.

I suppose it's arguable to relocate that one, but I'd say it isn't absolutely necessary, since we're already resigned to "shuffling" the order of scenes in InfC #1 no matter what. (Either way, what really bugs me is that there's never an explanation for why Superman just gives up on finding Luthor sometime after the end of #224, and moves on to other things.)

4) JSA Classified 4 takes place simultaneously with the JSA's battle with Mordru and leads directly into IC 2, but you have an extra day between the two stories. (To be fair, it would be possible, though dramatically unsatisfying, to insert such a gap before the last page of JSAC 4.)

Alternately, one could stretch the JSA tale across two days, if necessary (especially given the "mystic" goings-on)... but what establishes that JSAC #4 is exactly simultaneous with that story, anyway?

Under the Hood is Batman 635-638. 638 ends with Jason Todd beating the Joker and taking him prisoner. He still has him tied up as his prisoner in Batman 649 (placing the Joker's role in War Crimes before his capture in 638).

Oh -- excellent point, and thanks for the reminder. That does tend to argue strongly for an earlier placement for "War Crimes." The capture isn't precisely dated, but must be sometime prior to the end of the "five week" span, at least, if I persist (and I do) in taking that as given. Still... that leaves several other Batman tales crying out for time in the intervening span.

[d newton]

Questions for Paul:

(Page 2)
1 -

And they are in-flight from the conclusion of the Afghan adventure when the OMAC's attack.

Which comic did this happen in for Robin and his military unit? In Robin? In the OMAC Project itself? Somewhere else?

2 -

Wonder Woman was blinded sometime between Identity Crisis and the Countdown 80-page special. She did not regain her sight until WW #217, just two issues before the final part of the “Sacrifice” interlude of The OMAC Project in issue #219. WW #218, the intervening issue, gives no indication that more than a week has passed, which certainly must. Rather, WW #218 gives every indication that it begins immediately after Diana has regained her sight in the previous issue, and ends with a cliffhanger that is resolved – apparently only hours later – in WW #220, the immediate aftermath of “Sacrifice.” Furthermore, the issue includes a sequence with Wonder Girl and Superboy set explicitly before “Insiders” (which is itself days before “Sacrifice”). Issue #218 must be stretched almost beyond credibility to accommodate the timeline. Wonder Woman #221, again, feels distinctly as if it occurs immediately after the previous issue. In fact, it occurs on the Sunday night of the fateful footage being released to the world. If Rucka’s material in OMAC, WW and AoS is all that is considered, there’s little problem here. But if the goal is to account for the full breadth of activity in the entire Crisis-related DCU, a gap of more than two weeks must be forced in between WW #220 and #221.

I have WW 218 to 221 + the Superman comics / OMAC Project in this order:
WW 218 pgs 1 & 7 to 9.
OMAC Project 1 to 3.
WW 218 pgs 2 to 6 & 10 to 19.
Superman 219.
Action 829.
Adventures 642.
WW 219.
OMAC Project 4 ~ Wonder Woman 220 pgs 1 to 8.
WW 218 pgs 20 to 22 & 220 pgs 9 to 22.
OMAC Project 5, 6 pg 1 to 21.
OMAC Project 6 pg 22 ~ WW 221.

[G.O.K.I.]

Just one thing. I tend to think that the "Breaking of the 4th Wall" in IC #1 with Alex, Supes Boy Prime, Earth-2 Supes, and all happening Pre-Crisis. If the second Lex Luthor is there, then Alex must have broken out long before many of those events as he is the one orchestrating it. What E-2 Supes saw may have been a vision of things to come on some part, but I can't possibly understand how Alex Luthor could have been orchestrating those events without already being on the DCU's Earth. Also, if he was already on the Earth before, he didn't need E-2 Supes to break the 4th Wall...right?

[bungi43]

Ok, a few quick questions for you guys. I've spent the last 3-4 hours going over this and racking my brain, and there are still several things that I have in different places than you guys do.

With that said, where I may be wrong is there are a few titles I don't buy, and that I just flip through at the comic shop to help me piece things together.

Do any ofyou have a list of each comic that has been related too/tied in to this whole story line, or has made any reference? A few titles I don't get on a regular basis are Catwoman, Birds of Prey, Gotham Central, and Wonder woman. I have picked up a few issues from these here and there, but I may be missing stuff, which would lead you guys to be correct and for me to be wrong. Most of my stuff i have just written down, but you guys have intrigued me to sit down and put it in a spread sheet and try to get mine up here. Could really help us all out. I've done a lot of timeline pieces in the past (for school)...but most of it has been real events (such as sports, cause i'm a sports nut), or when I went to my Bible school trying to piece together pieces of the Bible with pieces in history books...making them work.

So if any of you have a list of all the books so far, I could grab what I've missed, or at least go to my comic shop and make notes. I spend enough money there they'd let me "library" out some books some day

Thanks

[lawman]

Bungi43-

I don't follow every single DC book either, and I'd be the last to say my list of what's involved is "authoritative." That said, the titles and issues we've discussed here -- in Sudoku's initial posts, and on the sites that have been directly linked -- should provide more than enough information to make sense of things. (At least, as much sense as is reasonably possible.)

Were there any specific points where your reading of events differed with what one or the other of us has put forward?

[PaulTiberius]

Just one thing. I tend to think that the "Breaking of the 4th Wall" in IC #1 with Alex, Supes Boy Prime, Earth-2 Supes, and all happening Pre-Crisis. If the second Lex Luthor is there, then Alex must have broken out long before many of those events as he is the one orchestrating it. What E-2 Supes saw may have been a vision of things to come on some part, but I can't possibly understand how Alex Luthor could have been orchestrating those events without already being on the DCU's Earth. Also, if he was already on the Earth before, he didn't need E-2 Supes to break the 4th Wall...right?

GOKI, have you read IC #4 yet?

SPOILER...




Alex says his manipulations were via a hologram. The Villains United Luthor (Alex) was never really there until Superman-2 broke the wall. Of course, it was a hologram capable of stabbing a guy...

[PaulTiberius]

Questions for Paul:

(Page 2)
1 -
Which comic did this happen in for Robin and his military unit? In Robin? In the OMAC Project itself? Somewhere else?

The Afghanistan mission was in Robin #142. The Bludhaven OMAC action and fallout is in Robin #143-145.

2 -
I have WW 218 to 221 + the Superman comics / OMAC Project in this order:
WW 218 pgs 1 & 7 to 9.
OMAC Project 1 to 3.
WW 218 pgs 2 to 6 & 10 to 19.
Superman 219.
Action 829.
Adventures 642.
WW 219.
OMAC Project 4 ~ Wonder Woman 220 pgs 1 to 8.
WW 218 pgs 20 to 22 & 220 pgs 9 to 22.
OMAC Project 5, 6 pg 1 to 21.
OMAC Project 6 pg 22 ~ WW 221.

Your breaks in WW 218 seem probably about right. Have you downloaded my Excel map from SBC? Let me ask -- do you think I should embed notes that explain page-by-page what parts of WW 218 should go where?