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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Well, if i make a story which ends with Reed Richards and Doom becoming a gay couple, it's unexpected, but this is good?
    Hey, it works for Mags and Professor X.

    Mags, Doom, Richards, and Professor X can all go out clubbing to the gay bars together.

    Last edited by jmc247; 04-06-2007 at 08:08 AM.

  2. #197
    Veteran Member DDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david r View Post
    Running alongside Dark Wolverine would have been:

    The Shadow King epic

    Up until the Muir Island Saga, UXM #278-280, the Shadow King had been assembling his chess pieces to topple the X-Men. Chris Claremont began telling this story around Uncanny X-Men #253, with the Shadow King unleashed again. His chess pieces begin with Moira McTaggart and the Muir Island Mutates, like Legion, Guido, etc.

    Also, the SK takes possession of FBI agent Isaac Reitz, hospital doctor Lian Shen who helps Storm in #253, and through Reitz, the SK begins maneuvers within the United States government. He controls Carol Danvers and sends her to assassinate Mystique.

    Muir Island Saga was NOT the end of this story. Claremont planned for it to only be a stepping stone to a much more ambitious tale. The X-Men and Charles Xavier return from outer space (UXM #274-277) and find the SK's influence on Muir Island. Claremont originally planned for Magneto to arrive on the island to stop the Shadow King. Colossus is now also possessed by the SK, but the X-Men liberate the island. Or do they?

    Also, Charles Xavier would NOT have been crippled again in UXM #280. Xavier would not return to the wheelchair ever again, in CC's plans. The Shadow King would have gone back into hiding after his setback, but in fact, was assembling even more pawns:

    1) The Reavers would have fallen under his control, as Reaver leader Donald Pierce would be revealed to be under the Shadow King's control all along. Thus, Lady Deathstrike and the Reavers are at the disposal of the SK.

    2) Hellfire Club would have revealed as created by the Shadow King, centuries before. Emma Frost, Selene, and Sebastian Shaw are all his pawns. (This was again hinted to in "Excalibur" #21-22.) But some members like Tessa remain mysteriously beyond his reach.

    3) Senator Robert Kelly begins an anti-mutant Presidental bid in 1992. 1992 was an actual presidential year,and Claremont was going to coincide Robert Kelly's run with it. Robert Kelly now hates the mutants because of the death of his wife in Uncanny X-Men #247, and swears to police them. The X-Men are secretly protecting him for fear of his assassination, which they know is foretold to launch the dreaded "Days of Future Past"-nightmare future they fear.

    4) Isaac Reitz and Carol Danvers are now within the White House. The Shadow King, using Reitz and Danvers as his keys into the President's home, is maneuvering them to assassinate the President of the United States, at the same moment that Robert Kelly is killed. Thus, triggering a worldwide holocaust on mutants.

    5) Gateway: Possibly most dangerous of all, using Donald Pierce in Australia, the Shadow King kidnaps the aboriginie Gateway and through him, attempts to access Dreamtime. If the Shadow King is successful in controlling Dreamtime, he would become damn near unstoppable.

    Claremont wanted to stack the cards so heavily in the Shadow King's favor, that it would take nearly every living X-Man alive to stop him. The X-Men would be successful in stopping a mutant from assassinating Robert Kelly, only to see him fall from a bullett shot by a flatscan human. But the damage would be done. A wave of anti-mutant hysteria would wash over America.

    We would learn that Charles Xavier's son Legion is the focal point of the SK's current hold on Earth. Legion's multiple personalities would make him difficult to free from the SK's demonic possession. Xavier realizes he may be forced to kill his own son to stop the Shadow King. Finally, riots sweep the nation, as the war between humans and mutants begins, with the Shadow King at the heart of it.

    However, his plans begin to unravel, as his biggest mistake is revealed that Carol Danvers never assassinated Mystique at all. This whole time, it was the blue-skinned shapeshifter posing as Carole Danvers. Right before Isaac Reitz is to kill the U.S. President, Mystique changes shape from Carol Danvers and blows Isaac Reitz's head clean off !

    At that same point, Tessa within the Hellfire Club reveals herself never under the SK's control at all, and is in fact a spy for Charles Xavier. She battles Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost, and other Hellfire Club members and actually defeats them all. Temporarily disconnecting the SK's power over them. But it's enough time.

    At this same instant, Magneto and Charles Xavier and the X-Men land on Muir Island to confront the Shadow King. He has taken possession of Legion, and the island is once again the epicenter for the confrontation. In the end, while the X-Men battle the Reavers, other Hellfire Club members and Muir Island Mutates, Magneto and Xavier go in for the kill ! Legion must die. Legion indeed perishes, but so does Charles Xavier. Gravelly wounded in the massive battle, Charles Xavier dies. Magneto is left to carry the flag without him, as the Shadow King's evil plans come to a disastrous conclusion. The repercussions of this tale would have stretched for a long time afterwards.
    It's a shame Bob Harras screwed up this & The Dark Wolverine stories. Looking back, it is clear to me, Bob Harras should have been fired from all the mutant books he was editing at the time.

    David R, I'll agree with Jarrod. I think you mean Val Cooper instead of Carol Danvers. Val Cooper was sent to kill Mystique, but Mystique knew of the Shadow King's plans thanks to Destiny & she was prepared to take her out. Mystique then assumed Val Cooper's form (probably had a device to mimic Val's brainwaves so the Shadow King would not notice).

  3. #198
    Spider-Man Fan david r's Avatar
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    Thank you both for the correction. :)

    Chris Claremont's original plans for
    X-Men #1 August 1991

    Chris Claremont-- "The first issue of X-Men #1 was supposed to be like an entry-level book. What do we do with 53 X-Men? I had this great sequence worked out. A five-page scene, with Scott and Storm in the Danger Room. Scott's up in the booth, Storm's down on the floor. You have this incredible fight going on, Brotherhood of Evil Mutants vs. X-Men, bodies flying everywhere, Storm just wanders through the middle of it, taking notes. They freeze it, displays appear, assessing everybody's performance.

    And what Scott and Storm are doing is running scenarios, mixing various members of the team. Show them actually working out who goes where. How do we protect the mansion? In the middle of this, Magneto shows up. There's the obligatory confrontation, there might even be a fight. The gist of it is Magneto and Xavier have come to a parting of the ways. Magneto is certain that humanity will betray them. Xavier is just as certain that humanity will not. The Statesman vs. the Terrorist, who knows which is right? They go their separate ways. The X-Men realize there is a nasty world out there and they have to get ready. They divvy up the teams. X-Men #2 and Uncanny X-Men #281 were where the stories take off."

  4. #199
    Spider-Man Fan david r's Avatar
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    Mad Jim Jaspers and the Fury:

    Chris Claremont brought Sir Jim Jaspers in Uncanny X-Men #200 planning a mega-arc for him. Chris' plan was for Jim Jaspers to have a slowly-growing role in the title, and eventually create a Jaspers Warp in the Marvel Universe. However, Jaspers-creator Alan Moore was having a falling out with Marvel over the Dr. Who reprints appearing in U.S. Doctor Who editions. Claremont was unaware of the political goings-on until Moore read Jim Jaspers appearance in UXM #200 and went berzerk. Alan Moore cut ties to Marvel and the legal ownership of Jim Jaspers went into limbo.

    Claremont also intended to bring the Fury into the mega-arc, since the Fury's ownership was more hazy. And the "Special Executive" also, which eventually turned into the Technet. John Romita Jr. was to be the artist, and there were to be hints to this "Big Event" in other Marvel titles. At first, this story was planned as Marvel's 1986 answer to DC's "Crisis on Infinite Earths". Running through multiple titles and having ramifications in several books. But then, Claremont learned of the Alan Moore/Marvel clash and completely rewrote his mega-arc. And the "Marvel Crisis" instead morphed into the Mutant Massacre.

    The original arc was to begin with Uncanny X-Men #200 with the appearance of Sir Jim Jaspers, and the only person able to stop him--Charles Xavier---is now off-world. The next six issues went as were originally printed, but then changes begin. Nimrod, the futuristic Sentinel living as a Hispanic worker, was planned to merge with the Fury and not only become indestructible, but also incredibly intelligent. "Doctor Doom times a googleplex" was the term used to describe the hybrid. Romita was now leaving the book, and Alan Davis was asked to draw it, but he declined.

    The Mutant Massacre was supposed to be solely the Nimrod/Fury hybrid causing the destruction. No Sinister, no Marauders. He is finally stopped by Kitty Pryde phasing through him. Both Kitty and Nightcrawler were to be critically injured, so they are sent to Muir Island along with Colossus as bodyguard, and a new X-Man Longshot! Colossus would have become a foil for Brian Braddock (whose on Muir Isle) and Kitty begins a crush on Brian.

    Mutants begin to swarm to Xavier's Mansion for protection, and with Phoenix Rachel Summers gone and Kitty and Brian in Scotland, there were no mutants around to see the parallels with Days of Future Past or with the Jaspers Warp. America falls into the throes of mutant hysteria and with Magneto now in charge of the X-Men, he must make some radical decisions to effect the status quo. I'll finish the rest later....
    Last edited by david r; 04-07-2007 at 10:12 AM.

  5. #200
    Senior Member Lorendiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorendiac View Post
    I don't quite see the point of "talking him out of it." Dazzler (and Psylocke, and Havok, and Colossus) all ended up passing through the Siege Perilous anyway, just four issues later. Why would it make much difference if Rogue went through the Siege in #247 and Dazzler in #251, or the other way around, as long as they both went through the Siege that year?
    Quote Originally Posted by david r View Post
    Claremont had planned to kill Dazzler, not send her into the Siege Perilous. This is why Allison sees all those visions of herself dying in #246.
    I still have trouble seeing any meaningful distinction here. When Rogue went through the Siege, everybody reacted as if she had just died. (But she came back later). One issue later, Storm died! There was a clearly identifiable corpse and everything! So what? She came back later!

    So I really had the feeling that Claremont's plan was to have everybody "die" (with some of them going through the Siege Perilous as amounting to the same thing) and then slowly bring them back over the next couple of years. (Heck, he'd already had eight X-Men, plus Madelyne Pryor, "absolutely, positively really die" in Dallas a couple of years earlier . . . and then get resurrected! Why would Dazzler's "death" in #247 be anything different?)

    So the way it looks to me is that Marc Silvestri's contribution amounts to: "I managed to persuade Chris that instead of killing off Dazzler in #247, so that he could bring her back later, he should have her walk through the Siege Perilous four issues later, so that he could bring her back later!"

    Or is there some reason to believe that Chris Claremont really and truly wanted Dazzler to stay "permanently dead"? (Not that it matters much, because within another couple of years he was going to lose his job as an X-Men writer and then someone else would have just brought her back anyway! ;))
    Last edited by Lorendiac; 04-07-2007 at 11:01 AM.

  6. #201
    BANNED Novaya Havoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorendiac View Post
    I still have trouble seeing any meaningful distinction here. When Rogue went through the Siege, everybody reacted as if she had just died. (But she came back later). One issue later, Storm died! There was a clearly identifiable corpse and everything! So what? She came back later!

    So I really had the feeling that Claremont's plan was to have everybody "die" (with some of them going through the Siege Perilous as amounting to the same thing) and then slowly bring them back over the next couple of years. (Heck, he'd already had eight X-Men, plus Madelyne Pryor, "absolutely, positively really die" in Dallas a couple of years earlier . . . and then get resurrected! Why would Dazzler's "death" in #247 be anything different?)

    So the way it looks to me is that Marc Silvestri's contribution amounts to: "I managed to persuade Chris that instead of killing off Dazzler in #247, so that he could bring her back later, he should have her walk through the Siege Perilous four issues later, so that he could bring her back later!"

    Or is there some reason to believe that Chris Claremont really and truly wanted Dazzler to stay "permanently dead"? (Not that it matters much, because within another couple of years he was going to lose his job as an X-Men writer and then someone else would have just brought her back anyway! ;))
    Because Jubilee was replacing her.

    No one was replacing Storm.

    End of discussion.

  7. #202
    It's hip to be square! Syzygy's Avatar
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    At that same point, Tessa within the Hellfire Club reveals herself never under the SK's control at all, and is in fact a spy for Charles Xavier. She battles Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost, and other Hellfire Club members and actually defeats them all. Temporarily disconnecting the SK's power over them. But it's enough time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
    *groan*

    *whimper*
    Totally, Arilou. I just vomited up a month of lunches.

    And the part about Jean and Logan hitching up: I don't buy it, and I'm glad I never saw it. I can see a fling, but permanently? It reminds me of that domestic scene in Earth X where Logan and Maddie are living together.

    I can't see Jean sticking with a cigar-chomping, Harley riding, beer-drinking, bar-hopping roughneck. Not for any real length of time.

    A better match for her, sans Summers, would be her old classmate Worthington.

    Peace,
    Syzygy

  8. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
    I can't see Jean sticking with a cigar-chomping, Harley riding, beer-drinking, bar-hopping roughneck. Not for any real length of time.

    Peace,
    Syzygy
    Can you see Scott sticking with a 40-something, plastic surgery-enhanced, bitchy, self-centered, ex-stripper, child-abusing, former evil murderer? And yet that is panning out (sorta).

  9. #204
    "SCOTT!" *faints* Zombienorthstar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaya Havoc View Post

    End of discussion.
    Yeah, cause that always works.
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  10. #205
    Senior Member Lorendiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaya Havoc View Post
    Because Jubilee was replacing her.

    No one was replacing Storm.

    End of discussion.
    That's interesting. I had just started reading "Uncanny X-Men" regularly in those days, so I saw Jubilee nursing Wolverine back to health, sailing off to Hong Kong with him, etc., and it never even occurred to me (then or later) that perhaps Jubilee was meant to "replace" Dazzler. Ali, by that point, was a grown woman with a fair amount of experience in using her powers for maximum effect in various types of emergencies. (She'd finally mastered the whole "laser" thing, for instance -- a serious improvement over the days when she was just the "disco singer who saves a fortune on fancy lightshow special effects.") Jubilee was a teenage California girl (maybe 15 years old?) whom I saw as being teamed up with Wolverine to fill the roll of a spunky, well-meaning, but obviously untrained "comic relief sidekick" to lighten things up a bit in sequences where Logan was brooding and thinking dark thoughts.

    Of course, I suppose Claremont may have thought the two characters were beautifully interchangeable, although I find it hard to see how he would have gotten that idea into his head in the first place.

    And I hope "End of discussion" was intended as a joke! :)

  11. #206
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword Is Drawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david r View Post
    Mad Jim Jaspers and the Fury:

    Chris Claremont brought Sir Jim Jaspers in Uncanny X-Men #200 planning a mega-arc for him. Chris' plan was for Jim Jaspers to have a slowly-growing role in the title, and eventually create a Jaspers Warp in the Marvel Universe. However, Jaspers-creator Alan Moore was having a falling out with Marvel over the Dr. Who reprints appearing in U.S. Doctor Who editions. Claremont was unaware of the political goings-on until Moore read Jim Jaspers appearance in UXM #200 and went berzerk. Alan Moore cut ties to Marvel and the legal ownership of Jim Jaspers went into limbo.
    It goes further than simply arguing over the reprints. Moore objected to the legal action Marvel put up against his 1982 revival of Mick Anglo's Marvelman, which he was writing for British anthology title Warrior Magazine (Which is where V for Vendetta began it's life also). Despite being created in 1952 in his original series the action forced the character to be renamed 'Miracleman'. This was the reason why Moore insisted that he would never work for Marvel, ever again. Something which he has stuck true to, to the current day.

    When Joe Quesada took over as EiC of Marvel, one of the first things he did was try to smooth things out with Moore. This resulted in a certain amount of progress. While Moore will still not work for Marvel he did give approval for his original Captain Britain Jaspers' Warp storyline to be reprinted in 2000. A gestalt entity half Jim Jaspers - half The Fury was also brought into being when Wanda Maximoff caused the Multiverse to split open in Otherworld during Uncanny X-Men's House of M story 'Season of the Witch' prompting speculation that Claremont may use that character either in up coming issues of New Excalibur or eXiles.
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  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slung View Post
    Can you see Scott sticking with a 40-something, plastic surgery-enhanced, bitchy, self-centered, ex-stripper, child-abusing, former evil murderer? And yet that is panning out (sorta).
    since when is scott ever monogous? jean, the ship captain woman, maddie, psylocke, emma....the man is a total jerk when it comes to women and no one sees it...I'm tired of people coming down on Emma for breaking up him and Jean, it was Scott that did it and no i dont want him to stay with Emma, I think she's better solo (relationship wise)

  13. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost View Post
    since when is scott ever monogous? jean, the ship captain woman, maddie, psylocke, emma....the man is a total jerk when it comes to women and no one sees it...I'm tired of people coming down on Emma for breaking up him and Jean, it was Scott that did it and no i dont want him to stay with Emma, I think she's better solo (relationship wise)
    I wasn't meaning to attack Emma per se in my scathing little diatribe - I was merely pointing out that if we use stereotypes to say that characters don't work together (like syzguy did with Logan and Jean), than certainly Scott and Emma don't work either. I used Emma's most unpleasant attributes to paint a stereotype of her character. I'm not placing all blame on her for Scott and Jean's breakup - I'm just talking out my butt to make a rather pointless point. :).

  14. #209
    Veteran Member DDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david r View Post
    Mad Jim Jaspers and the Fury:

    Chris Claremont brought Sir Jim Jaspers in Uncanny X-Men #200 planning a mega-arc for him. Chris' plan was for Jim Jaspers to have a slowly-growing role in the title, and eventually create a Jaspers Warp in the Marvel Universe. However, Jaspers-creator Alan Moore was having a falling out with Marvel over the Dr. Who reprints appearing in U.S. Doctor Who editions. Claremont was unaware of the political goings-on until Moore read Jim Jaspers appearance in UXM #200 and went berzerk. Alan Moore cut ties to Marvel and the legal ownership of Jim Jaspers went into limbo.

    Claremont also intended to bring the Fury into the mega-arc, since the Fury's ownership was more hazy. And the "Special Executive" also, which eventually turned into the Technet. John Romita Jr. was to be the artist, and there were to be hints to this "Big Event" in other Marvel titles. At first, this story was planned as Marvel's 1986 answer to DC's "Crisis on Infinite Earths". Running through multiple titles and having ramifications in several books. But then, Claremont learned of the Alan Moore/Marvel clash and completely rewrote his mega-arc. And the "Marvel Crisis" instead morphed into the Mutant Massacre.

    The original arc was to begin with Uncanny X-Men #200 with the appearance of Sir Jim Jaspers, and the only person able to stop him--Charles Xavier---is now off-world. The next six issues went as were originally printed, but then changes begin. Nimrod, the futuristic Sentinel living as a Hispanic worker, was planned to merge with the Fury and not only become indestructible, but also incredibly intelligent. "Doctor Doom times a googleplex" was the term used to describe the hybrid. Romita was now leaving the book, and Alan Davis was asked to draw it, but he declined.

    The Mutant Massacre was supposed to be solely the Nimrod/Fury hybrid causing the destruction. No Sinister, no Marauders. He is finally stopped by Kitty Pryde phasing through him. Both Kitty and Nightcrawler were to be critically injured, so they are sent to Muir Island along with Colossus as bodyguard, and a new X-Man Longshot! Colossus would have become a foil for Brian Braddock (whose on Muir Isle) and Kitty begins a crush on Brian.

    Mutants begin to swarm to Xavier's Mansion for protection, and with Phoenix Rachel Summers gone and Kitty and Brian in Scotland, there were no mutants around to see the parallels with Days of Future Past or with the Jaspers Warp. America falls into the throes of mutant hysteria and with Magneto now in charge of the X-Men, he must make some radical decisions to effect the status quo. I'll finish the rest later....
    Elements of The Jaspers Warp storyline made it into Inferno. How? Both were to have inanimate objects come to life as a result of reality being shaped by another (Jaspers, Madelyne Pryor respectfully).

    I think the Marauders & Mister Sinister is a far better idea than the intended Nimrod-Fury gestalt. You will note, Chris Claremont merged Nimrod with the Master Mold Sentinel in Uncanny X-Men #246-247 leading to both robots' destruction.

  15. #210
    14 Time Rita's Champion SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david r View Post
    Thank you both for the correction. :)

    Chris Claremont's original plans for
    X-Men #1 August 1991

    Chris Claremont-- "The first issue of X-Men #1 was supposed to be like an entry-level book. What do we do with 53 X-Men? I had this great sequence worked out. A five-page scene, with Scott and Storm in the Danger Room. Scott's up in the booth, Storm's down on the floor. You have this incredible fight going on, Brotherhood of Evil Mutants vs. X-Men, bodies flying everywhere, Storm just wanders through the middle of it, taking notes. They freeze it, displays appear, assessing everybody's performance.

    And what Scott and Storm are doing is running scenarios, mixing various members of the team. Show them actually working out who goes where. How do we protect the mansion? In the middle of this, Magneto shows up. There's the obligatory confrontation, there might even be a fight. The gist of it is Magneto and Xavier have come to a parting of the ways. Magneto is certain that humanity will betray them. Xavier is just as certain that humanity will not. The Statesman vs. the Terrorist, who knows which is right? They go their separate ways. The X-Men realize there is a nasty world out there and they have to get ready. They divvy up the teams. X-Men #2 and Uncanny X-Men #281 were where the stories take off."

    Ok I put that comment in italics. For years everyone has always said Grant Morrison was wrong to call Magneto a terrorist. This comes from the "X-Creators" mouth regarding Magneto. So now we know what Chris thought of Mags as well now.
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