Black Characters - Powers, Trends, Stereotypes

[Typo Lad]

Please do. I'd love to read it.

Maybe I'll just PM you it.

Once I re-write it from memory, since the original is buried somewhere.

The other part of that Marvel Two-In-One story I liked was when Ben slowed Bill down before he waded into it with Nuklo and wrapped his hands in lead. Classic line: "You hit that guy without protection, you're going to lose your tan."

Maybe not the most enlightened thing Ben could say, but it was one of those lines of dialogue that stuck with me because I could just see a guy like Ben saying it.

Yeah, that's really a line you can ONLY see X number of characters getting away with.

It's interesting that it got past editorial though.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

There's also...um...

Damn.

Oh! Got it. That Dr. Reyes woman!

Although that might do it.

I never read much of Generation X, but I just thought of "M" for some reason.

And, this will demonstrate my relative ignorance of the X-titles, but didn't Frenzy eventually join up with the good guys at some point?

[west3man]

Well, people take issue with the fact that they let a black guy be GL. YOu know what? That's bigotry.

You want me to give a damn what some homophobe thinks?

I didn't take it that way, but maybe I should have.

I'll think on it some more, but, for one thing, I don't see any- and everyone who has a problem with homosexuality.
Enough Treo-speak, for now.

EDITED TO REMOVE THE END OF SOMEONE ELSE'S TEXT OR SOMETHING. Sheesh. I was NOT signing this as "the homophobe."

[Kurt Busiek]

Since Smarty brought up one of my favorite obscure characters, Black Goliath, just a question to the board about Bill Foster. Black Goliath #5 was one of my first comics, so I've always had a soft spot for him, even though he is a refugee from the "black man who stands in for the white hero" school (see Stewart, John). I loved the Project Pegasus run, despite the God awful costume, and especially liked the scene where Ben gave a well-reasoned suggestion that he adopt the name "Giant Man." Other than his bad original name and his rather unfortunate choices in costumes, I've always felt that this was a guy Marvel could do something with.

I mean, if Marvel can rescue Luke "Sweet Christmas" Cage, Sam "Snap" Wilson and the original 'Black' superhero, the Black Panther from the scrap heap, then why not a guy who's the biochemist that improved Hank Pym's original formula and has a terrific six-pack to boot?

I never much liked Black Goliath, myself. He had Hank Pym's powers, but less, Hank Pym's personality, but less and an awful name. And when he went from bland lab assistant who stood around in the background for the bulk of his appearances, he suddenly got a ghetto background. And nobody ever added anything to the character to get me interested.

He's largely a blank slate who could be built into an interesting guy, but the writer who does it would be starting from scratch almost as throughly as I was with Screaming Mimi.

The reason I'e never been that interested in doing it, aside from the fact that when writing team books for Marvel I was usually writing Hank Pym or Atlas, so another giant really wasn't needed, is that I think there's something essentially disappointing about a giant whose first reaction to a threat is, "Now wait, people, let's think this through." Giants should be impulsive, physical, visceral, destructive -- Clint Barton was a great giant. [Just a better Hawkeye.] Voices of reason should have powers that go with a voice-of-reason personality, not biceps the size of city buses.

But that's just me -- if someone else picked up Bill Foster and added enough to the character to make him interesting, that'd be just fine. I'm just not the guy to do it.

And I just recently re-read BLACK GOLIATH #1-5, and they're awful. It reads like a book that was put on the schedule at lunchtime and the first plot in the hands of an artist by the end of the same day (which is what happened). But there's nobody who can't be improved if you work hard enough at it.

kdb

[Anthony]

But think about this: how many black female superheroes are there, anyway? Storm and Pulsar are the only two who leap to mind at Marvel. The aforementioned Skyrocket, Vixen and Bumblebee at DC.

That's a pretty sad list.

I'm assuming you mean from the majors and not imprints (since Milestone alone would boost DC's numbers)

But Kid Quantum and possibly XS over in Legion. The new Steel (Irons' niece?), M from Gen X, LadyHawk from the Spider-Girl M2 universe. If you want to consider Misty Knight, she sort of qualifies. Heather Hudson from Exiles.

That's all I can think of.

[Anthony]

For the record Cecilia Reyes is Puerto Rican and thus Hispanic. The 'sister' comment she once made to Storm is apt though, as in NYC, especially the part I grew up in, Ricans and Blacks were like brothers and sisters. But technically her ethnicity is Hispanic, an one not frought with stereotypes if I remember correctly.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

I never much liked Black Goliath, myself. He had Hank Pym's powers, but less, Hank Pym's personality, but less and an awful name. And when he went from bland lab assistant who stood around in the background for the bulk of his appearances, he suddenly got a ghetto background. And nobody ever added anything to the character to get me interested.

He's largely a blank slate who could be built into an interesting guy, but the writer who does it would be starting from scratch almost as throughly as I was with Screaming Mimi.

The reason I'e never been that interested in doing it, aside from the fact that when writing team books for Marvel I was usually writing Hank Pym or Atlas, so another giant really wasn't needed, is that I think there's something essentially disappointing about a giant whose first reaction to a threat is, "Now wait, people, let's think this through." Giants should be impulsive, physical, visceral, destructive -- Clint Barton was a great giant. [Just a better Hawkeye.] Voices of reason should have powers that go with a voice-of-reason personality, not biceps the size of city buses.

But that's just me -- if someone else picked up Bill Foster and added enough to the character to make him interesting, that'd be just fine. I'm just not the guy to do it.

And I just recently re-read BLACK GOLIATH #1-5, and they're awful. It reads like a book that was put on the schedule at lunchtime and the first plot in the hands of an artist by the end of the same day (which is what happened). But there's nobody who can't be improved if you work hard enough at it.

kdb

Boy, I haven't actually read BG #1-4 (that's pretty brave of you). All I remember about #5 was him fighting some guy with an axe on an alien planet, along with a woman and a kid. And the woman got some kind of awful green jumpsuit out of the alien's machine. Wow, even with those sketchy memories, it sounds pretty bad, doesn't it? I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when someone made the pitch for the Black Goliath solo series. Now, THERE'S a salesman.

Is his solo series where Bill Foster got the urban background, or would that have been in his Power Man appearances?

I agree the guy is pretty much a blank slate. I just think there's enough there to make something of him.

Your point about the giant powers is interesting and something I had not considered. Perhaps that's why I've never really liked Hank as Giant Man, but always preferred him as Yellowjacket? His personality never fit the role, somehow. But, you're right, Bill Foster's personality, such as it is, doesn't fit any better than Hank Pym's. Then again, I've always had an idea about changing Foster's powers to make them (and him) a bit more of an original character. After your post, I think that makes even more sense.

Now, to get back to the Triathlon discussion for a moment (but only a moment), here's a character I just thought about who makes Triathlon look like a star: Rage. I cannot explain to you how much I loathe the character Rage. I can only imagine what Smarty will say, because all of his objections to Triathlon apply to Rage to the Nth degree.

In the Avengers, he was horrible. I actually began to like him in New Warriors. That is, until Fabe gave him that disco bondage headgear.

[crystalline green]

For the record Cecilia Reyes is Puerto Rican and thus Hispanic. The 'sister' comment she once made to Storm is apt though, as in NYC, especially the part I grew up in, Ricans and Blacks were like brothers and sisters. But technically her ethnicity is Hispanic, an one not frought with stereotypes if I remember correctly.

Actually she is black and Puerto Rican. They aren't mutually exclusive. She just happens to be a Puerto Rican of African descent. Remember Ricky Martin is Puerto Rican too and he and Cecilia Reyes would never be mistaken for brother and sister any more than Tom Cruise and Angela Basset would be.. The african diaspora extends to such cultures as Puerto Rico, Cuba, South American, the Carribean, Mexico etc.

[Anthony]

Actually she is black and Puerto Rican. They aren't mutually exclusive. She just happens to be a Puerto Rican of African descent. Remember Ricky Martin is Puerto Rican too and he and Cecilia Reyes would never be mistaken for brother and sister any more than Tom Cruise and Angela Basset would be.. The african diaspora extends to such cultures as Puerto Rico, Cuba, South American, the Carribean, Mexico etc.

I didn't mean for them to be mutually exclusive. But I was talking more from a position of my personal experience. Puerto Ricans I grew up with looked nothing like the way Reyes was portrayed in comics, in fact many of them were lighter in complexion than Ricky Martin. That didn't make them any less brotherly or sisterly to me in their actions or in the way they approached me. If one of them said "Bro" or "bruh", or any other familiar term it wouldn't strike me as strange. Remember Reyes didn't mean sister as in we have the same parents, she was using it as a term of familiarity. In that case the complexion of the Puerto Rican, to me at least, is irrelevant.

[crystalline green]

I didn't mean for them to be mutually exclusive. But I was talking more from a position of my personal experience. Puerto Ricans I grew up with looked nothing like the way Reyes was portrayed in comics, in fact many of them were lighter in complexion than Ricky Martin. That didn't make them any less brotherly or sisterly to me in their actions or in the way they approached me. If one of them said "Bro" or "bruh", or any other familiar term it wouldn't strike me as strange. Remember Reyes didn't mean sister as in we have the same parents, she was using it as a term of familiarity. In that case the complexion of the Puerto Rican, to me at least, is irrelevant.

Ah...I understand what you're saying now and I totally agree. And yes, I interpreted Reyes addressing 'Ro as "sister" as an expression of kinship as well. I just pointed out that she was black in addition to being hispanic because many of black peoples of the different cultures, I named face discrimination within their culture too.

[crystalline green]

I didn't mean for them to be mutually exclusive. But I was talking more from a position of my personal experience. Puerto Ricans I grew up with looked nothing like the way Reyes was portrayed in comics, in fact many of them were lighter in complexion than Ricky Martin. That didn't make them any less brotherly or sisterly to me in their actions or in the way they approached me. If one of them said "Bro" or "bruh", or any other familiar term it wouldn't strike me as strange. Remember Reyes didn't mean sister as in we have the same parents, she was using it as a term of familiarity. In that case the complexion of the Puerto Rican, to me at least, is irrelevant.

Ah...I understand what you're saying now and I totally agree. And yes, I interpreted Reyes addressing 'Ro as "sister" as an expression of kinship as well. I just pointed out that she was black in addition to being hispanic because many of the blacks, of the different cultures I named, face discrimination within their culture too.

[Kurt Busiek]

Boy, I haven't actually read BG #1-4 (that's pretty brave of you). All I remember about #5 was him fighting some guy with an axe on an alien planet, along with a woman and a kid. And the woman got some kind of awful green jumpsuit out of the alien's machine. Wow, even with those sketchy memories, it sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?

Your sketchy memories aren't wrong. The fight is a misunderstanding, the alien helps them figure out how to get home, and dies.

The other four issues are just empty superhero bash-ups. No knock on the guys who did them, who did much better work elsewhere, but there was nothing there to work with, and nobody had any time to figure anything out.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when someone made the pitch for the Black Goliath solo series. Now, THERE'S a salesman.

As I understand it, there was no pitch. The execs upstairs decided they needed five new books in a tearing hurry, and there was no time to think about it, so Len Wein (who was EIC at the time), Marv Wolfman (about to become EIC) and several staffers went out to lunch and made up books they could get rolling that very day. BLACK GOLIATH, INHUMANS, MARVEL CHILLERS (featuring Mordred), MARVEL PRESENTS (Bloodstone) and ADVENTURES ON THE PLANET OF THE APES were the books they made up, I think. Once they had a chance to think, the contents of CHILLERS and PRESENTS changed (to Tigra and Guardians of the Galaxy, respectively), but none of the books lasted.

BLACK GOLIATH came out a few months after the others, but if what I'm told is right, it was cooked up at that lunch.

Is his solo series where Bill Foster got the urban background, or would that have been in his Power Man appearances?

It's in #1; I don't remember whether there's any hint of it in the POWER MAN stuff.

Now, to get back to the Triathlon discussion for a moment (but only a moment), here's a character I just thought about who makes Triathlon look like a star: Rage. I cannot explain to you how much I loathe the character Rage. I can only imagine what Smarty will say, because all of his objections to Triathlon apply to Rage to the Nth degree.

Rage is actually a lot more palatable when you go back and re-read the early stuff with the understanding that he's a 13-year-old boy trying to act like his idea of a grownup hero, but since that was a secret at the time, he just came off as lame, and by the time the secret was revealed, nobody cared. But Fabian managed some good stuff with him in NEW WARRIORS, and I had fun writing him in NIGHT THRASHER. My take on NIGHT THRASHER was that it was Batman & Robin, if Batman was a young black man and Robin was the Hulk...

kdb

[Brad Curran]

My take on NIGHT THRASHER was that it was Batman & Robin, if Batman was a young black man and Robin was the Hulk...
kdb

You just sold some Night Thrasher back issues! To someone. Provided I can find any.

[Smarty Jones]

I'll take into consideration that Kurt Busiek does not see Triathlon as a stereotype because in his own mind he never intended to make him a stereotype. However, I feel some writers may not be aware they have created such a character until after the horse is out of the barn.

I actually think overall Busiek has created some quality characters, such as Josiah Power. Another that has yet to be mentioned came from his "Astro City" series -- Jack-in-the-Box.

[Mr. Croup]

FATHER: A black American. MOTHER: A black Kenyan.

That sure sounds multiracial to me. That's trying to "remove" Storm from being black. Sounds like the "acceptable black" to me.

I was working from bad information, I thought one of Storm's parents was an Egyptian.