Dickery with worst results

[Melbourne Mew Mew]

Okay, it's been well-established that PC Superman is a dick. But which nominal good-guy's dickery has resulted in the worst consequences?

I'll start by nominating Sailors Uranus and Neptune. Quoting from John Biles' page:

Over and over, the Outer Senshi prove they will do whatever it takes to accomplish their mission. But they fail, over and over, sometimes in spectacularly stupid ways. They are willing to let people die in order to get the Talismans...which it turns out that they ALREADY HAD. We'll leave aside the question of why Setsuna DIDN'T tell them when she must have known. However, the person who keeps this from turning into a complete disaster is... Usagi. The person they most tried to keep away from the Cathedral. The person whose transformation brooch they stole. A person who has every reason to dislike or hate them, but she risks her life, without her powers, to try to save theirs. Through her power, the Talismans are saved and the Grail is found.

But do they learn ANYTHING from this? Nope. They're back to treating the Inners as little hopeless kids in no time at all. They blunder their way through the rest of S, often doing nothing whatsover except lurk and look cool. Of course, this is partly the story editor's fault as well as theirs...Still, they set out on their own to defeat the forces of evil, rather than trying to oh, say...cooperate with other people with the same goal? The result? They get their ass kicked. In the end, it's Sailor Moon who helps Hotaru to overcome Mistress 9 and Sailor Moon who stops the rampaging Sailor Saturn AND Master Pharoah 90. And she does it all without ever once having to cross the moral line, without having to do the sort of thing that Haruka and Michiru congratulate themselves on their willingness to do for the greater good.

It happens again in Stars. Haruka and Michiru spend episode after episode totally distrusting the Starlights and wrecking any hope of real cooperation with them. As a result, the final battle with Galaxia turns into a complete disaster. Not that a coordinated effort would have had much more hope, but it would at least have been a moral victory, instead of a shambles. Instead, first the Outers fail to cooperate with the Senshi, then they try to trick Galaxia by 'selling out'. Their real goal is to get the special bracelets so they can blast her. Unfortunately...Galaxia isn't dumb enough to give anyone something they can turn against her. Pluto and Saturn fall to the 'traitor' Uranus and Neptune, then Galaxia kicks Uranus and Neptune's ass when they try to turn the bracelets on her. Again, their willingness to cross the line results only in failure.

[lonewolf23k]

Batman's actions in "Tower of Babel"...

[G_Man]

I always thought that was the point of the Outers... they were there to demonstrate why acting like Wolverine (lurking around trying to act badass, but never really accomplishing any significant in the cosmic battles, sound familar?) or the Punisher DOESN'T work in the mahou shoujo genre. :evilsmile

Seriously, I found that amusing that their willingness to cross the line like many American heroes during the big "grim 'n' gritty" phase (instead of relying on the power of love and friendship, or at least camraderie) always resulted in them getting their asses humilated.

I'd almost think they were meant to be a parody of the kind of heroes I mentioned above but I can't quite bring myself to credit the writers of the Sailor Moon anime with that much cleverness. :rolleyes:

[Super Macho Man]

Batman's actions in "Tower of Babel"...

Was that really Bruce bein' a prick, or was he jus' tryin' to act hard an' protective?

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Vegeta, getting the Majin powerup. How many people did he kill with those casual blasts of his?

[lonewolf23k]

Was that really Bruce bein' a prick, or was he jus' tryin' to act hard an' protective?

Well, I think the least he could've done is go "Ok, just so you guys know, I've got back-up emergency plans for taking out all of you guys in case you're taken over by outside forces or you all become evil. Nothing personal, though. Of course, I can't tell you ~what~ those plans are, or it would defeat the purpose of actually having them. But I've kept them in a secure location, I assure you. But, just to be on the safe side, if you guys are attacked in ways which exploit your greatest weaknesses, let me know, ok?"

...Of course, that would involve Batman not being a control freak..

[Super Macho Man]

Well, I think the least he could've done is go "Ok, just so you guys know, I've got back-up emergency plans for taking out all of you guys in case you're taken over by outside forces or you all become evil. Nothing personal, though. Of course, I can't tell you ~what~ those plans are, or it would defeat the purpose of actually having them. But I've kept them in a secure location, I assure you. But, just to be on the safe side, if you guys are attacked in ways which exploit your greatest weaknesses, let me know, ok?"

...Of course, that would involve Batman not being a control freak..

That's a hell of a lot of irony. But I don't wanna get into an argument about Tower of Babel, so, bye.

[G_Man]

That's a hell of a lot of irony. But I don't wanna get into an argument about Tower of Babel, so, bye.

My problem wasn't with him not telling them. If I was a suddenly evil Green Lantern, the first thing I'd do id kill Bats if I knew he had a plan for me.

My problem is his methods didn't even work right, proving to be more tortuous than disabling. A chemical that sets Jonn's skin on fire non-stop? Jesus, friggin' Prometheus came up with a more humane way of dealing with him.

An artifical kyrptonite that makes Supes' powers uncontrollably stronger? How the hell is that supposed to stop an evil Superman? He wouldn't care if he could kill bystanders by accident now.

Making GL blind with his own ring and hypnosis? The fug? Why not just make him unconcious with hypnosis and take off the damn ring, at worst, amputate that finger.

Fear gas to make Aquaman afraid of water? Kinda pointless if he's already barreling down on you. That'd only serve to torment him later on, unless he was already unusually dried out.

Flash's super-speed seizures struck me as unneccassirly cruel. Wally described it as feeling like their were "days where he wanted to die, it hurt so bad", when he'd only been under for minutes.

The only one that made any sense was the VR thing with Wonder Woman.

[Z-man]

My problem wasn't with him not telling them. If I was a suddenly evil Green Lantern, the first thing I'd do id kill Bats if I knew he had a plan for me.

My problem is his methods didn't even work right, proving to be more tortuous than disabling. A chemical that sets Jonn's skin on fire non-stop? Jesus, friggin' Prometheus came up with a more humane way of dealing with him.

An artifical kyrptonite that makes Supes' powers uncontrollably stronger? How the hell is that supposed to stop an evil Superman? He wouldn't care if he could kill bystanders by accident now.

Making GL blind with his own ring and hypnosis? The fug? Why not just make him unconcious with hypnosis and take off the damn ring, at worst, amputate that finger.

Fear gas to make Aquaman afraid of water? Kinda pointless if he's already barreling down on you. That'd only serve to torment him later on, unless he was already unusually dried out.

Flash's super-speed seizures struck me as unneccassirly cruel. Wally described it as feeling like their were "days where he wanted to die, it hurt so bad", when he'd only been under for minutes.

The only one that made any sense was the VR thing with Wonder Woman.

The Wonder Woman thing I always bring up when people try to claim that Batman's methods were non-lethal. He tried to give her a heart attack, after all.

Although I believe that the Superman red K thing was done without Batman knowing the effects. Basically, he synthesized the kryptonite into a form that he believed would be less lethal, but couldn't test it on him to know the exact effect.

[lonewolf23k]

Well, don't forget when that Ra's Al Gul got those plans, it's entirely possible he twisted them to make them unneccesarily cruel and deadly.

[Z-man]

Well, don't forget when that Ra's Al Gul got those plans, it's entirely possible he twisted them to make them unneccesarily cruel and deadly.

The Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner, and Aquaman plans were all Bruce's idea, that much I know, it was established in a JLA secret files released shortly afterwards, and probably collected in the trade.

[Ghost]

Vegeta, getting the Majin powerup. How many people did he kill with those casual blasts of his?

I second that. That he would betray his friends just for a chance to fight Goku again is one thing, but vaporising hundreds of innocent bystanders was totally unneccecary.

[NeoSapien]

Vegeta, getting the Majin powerup. How many people did he kill with those casual blasts of his?

1. Vegeta probably lost his title of "nominal good guy" with the Majin powerup.

2. Who cares? They were all wished back with the Dragon Balls anyway. :evilsmile

[chilled monkey]

Okay, it's been well-established that PC Superman is a dick. But which nominal good-guy's dickery has resulted in the worst consequences?

I'll start by nominating Sailors Uranus and Neptune. Quoting from John Biles' page: Over and over, the Outer Senshi prove they will do whatever it takes to accomplish their mission. But they fail, over and over...

I have to strongly disagree with this. When did the Outer Senshi ever fail? They're mission was to find the Talismans, find the Messiah and stop the Silence. They succeeded at all three.

As for the Galaxia thing, that was a classic case of a 'Main Character Aura.' The show is called "Sailor Moon," not "Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune" (as it should be), and heaven forbid that someone else besides the Main Character should be allowed to save the day.

What other choice did they have? It was either do what they did, or give up and die. Since when is refusing to give up considered d*****y? At least they tried. The other Senshi just stood there and died.

Uranus and Neptune showed tremendous willpower, courage and selflessness. What matters is the attempt, not just the result. They were willing to 'take the fall' so that no-one else would have to. They should be honoured.

[Willminus2]

What about Iron Dick?

I mean his actions lead to the death of Captain America and Bill Foster, and I'm sure more people as well.