Selling Out: What is it?

[Ouzo Man]

Thinking back twenty years or so, I remember a period when folks were accusing Bruce Springsteen of having sold out. As far as I could tell, the verb "to sell out" in this context meant the following things:

1. Becoming visible on MTV
2. Having a recording everyone seemed to know about
3. Achieving a name recognition larger than a cliquish or cultic following, meaning in a general sense having fans who would not pass the smell test of elitists.

In context, the verb seems unfair. Exactly what actually had Springsteen sold out?

Again I present another philosophical / etymological / epistemological question about music. With the noise to signal ratio being so bad in claims of performers "selling out," what's the real dividing line?

I would say it doesn't have anything really to do with 1, 2, or 3, although any of these things could get an artist denounced as a sellout. I'd say it has a lot more to do with this:

4. Abandoning one's own artistic inspiration in order to pursue some shallow angle of success; for instance, giving over to a mass produced kind of music in order to spike sales but, in so doing, giving up whatever made an act worth paying attention to. (An exemplary event might be something like firing the band to replace it with a drum machine to streamline production because sequenced music is moving that year when the original concept had little, or nothing, to do with techno sounds).

Note that "to sell out" under definition #4 implies that a talent originally had something to compromise. Acts that were mass produced and formula-conceived to begin with may be immune to selling out until such time as they develop something to sell.

What does "selling out" mean here on the music board? And who has actually done it? And who is actually just trying to survive commercially after having exhausted rather than abandoned his inspiration?

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

the term "sell out" has been used and abused,people use it too liberaly.just because someone's mainstream doesn't automaticly make them sell outs

[Eliot Johnson]

I'd say your fourth definition is pretty much correct. An artist or group who sells out abandons their old style of music with the goal of achieving commercial success. Simply abandoning an old style or achieving commercial success doesn't constitute selling out...it's the intent which is important. Truthfully...we can never know the intent for sure, of course, but we can get a pretty good idea.

As for who has actually sold out?

Exhibit A: Three Six Mafia

In the late eigthies and early nineties, the Triple Six Mafia was one of the most innovative and creative groups in rap. They, along with DJ Squeeky, defined the Memphis sound and, to a large extent, defined the sound of Southern Rap itself. Their mixture of horrorcore and true-to-life stories was extremely entertaining and intelligent. The production by Juicy J and DJ Paul was totally original and served their rappers' lyrics perfectly. For about five years, Triple Six Mafia was a sign of hope for rap in general and especially Southern Rap.

Things began to go down hill with the 1995 release of Mystic Stylez (their first nationwide) and their name change to Three 6 Mafia (in order to become more radio friendly). While Mystic Stylez still showed some signs of creativity (particularly in the music and the lyrics left over from Lil' Fly's time with the group), it started their trend towards commercialized rap, with several stereotypical tracks. Their style had obviously changed in order for this album to be released nationwide.

In the process of that style change, The Camp lost its first of many rappers, and it was a crucial blow. Lil' Fly (soon to be known as Playa Fly) demanded his fair share of the money and also refused to change his style. DJ Paul subsequently kicked him out of the group with the excuse of his addiction to cocaine. This blow crippled the group, as Fly ghost wrote the vast majority of pre-Mystic Stylez lyrics for all of their rappers. Further, he exploded onto the Memphis scene with his "Triple Bitch Mafia" song which exposed The Camp for what they really were.

By their next album, Three Six Mafia were not even a shadow of their former selves. Any lyricism whatsoever had disappeared and the subject matter was pure garbage. Even the production had grown less and less distinctive and more and more commercialized.

Greed began to kick in even more. In that process, many, many rappers left the group, most notably Gangsta Blac (the largely recognized "Underground King") and T-Rock (the consensus choice as Atlanta's greatest lyricist; not to mention, Playa Fly's replacement as the group's resident lyricist). Indo G, Koopsta Knicca, Skinny Pimp, and most recently Gangsta Boo are other notable artists to abandon DJ Paul and Juicy J. T-Rock's classic diss track "Mr. Big Man" (where he lays into DJ Paul for being a "member of the sell-out institution") cost 3-6 even more fans.

It's really a shame. People listen to the garbage that is Choices II, which just dropped, and have no idea of what Three-6 once was.

[kid cthulhu]

That pretty much sums it up right there!

[Ilash]

I need a grand total of two words to explain everything and anything that you need to know about selling out:


Rod Stewart.

[Adam Crocker]

I need a grand total of two words to explain everything and anything that you need to know about selling out:


Rod Stewart.

Oooooooohhhhh yeah!

[FresnoXpatriate]

Am I the only one to have that Reel Big Fish song underscoring everyone's replies on this page? I was going to try to come up with some example, but Tek's hits the nail on the head perfectly.

[DDM]

I believe "selling out" is determined by the artist or band & reaction from the public. The band or artist has to betray the artistic integrity for originally coming together in the first place.

[blackdragon6]

I'd say your fourth definition is pretty much correct. An artist or group who sells out abandons their old style of music with the goal of achieving commercial success. Simply abandoning an old style or achieving commercial success doesn't constitute selling out...it's the intent which is important. Truthfully...we can never know the intent for sure, of course, but we can get a pretty good idea.

more or less.......

[RegalSin]

You want to be an artist and make money. It is called commercial art.

[fivebyfive]

I personally believe that it's making the music you're told to make rather than the music you'd like to make.

[DKR]

Here's the idea of selling out:

There's a band that makes a record but doesn't make mainstream but manages to get a small following. When the band finally becomes known to the mainstream audience, the fans from the original small following say they sold out because they did it for money. Bands that people have claimed sold out include Metallica, Green Day, and My Chemical Romance.

I don't care if bands sell out, as long as they put out good music.

[Eric D.]

selling out involves the act of compromising one's own integrity as a means to making potentially more money than one thought they would have made had they not compromised their own integrity??

[mgs]

Selling out = what Liz Phair did.

Seriously, I bring it up a lot, but I feel bad for bashing that woman.

I mean, i think selling out can mean both 'fake' image and musical change. And by fake, I mean, not honest. I allow that people can change their tastes and appearances and all. But it should come from them. I even allow it to be bad or good, but again, it should come from them.

If others write their music, it should be acknowledged and tried out in limited amounts. But an artist has to have a 'core', I think. Something that would not be compromised.

[Adam C]

selling out involves the act of compromising one's own integrity as a means to making potentially more money than one thought they would have made had they not compromised their own integrity??

Well whatever "integrity" means...

But like Ouzo, I regard it more as sacrificing your artistic identity to the point of being generic just to lick the shiny brass ring. It's the difference between the Flaming Lips of the world who built on their earlier interests in psych pop to gain lasting mainstream success with Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots and the Rod Stewarts of this world (Stewart once being a great interpretative singer and a good songwriter who sacrificed it all for...this.)