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  1. #61
    Tricksterpup says Pudd'n tricksterpup's Avatar
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    Reason why they stink.. cause Gail Simone isn't writing them. Thats why.
    No worries. But I'm sorry to say that I've already named a character after you that gets killed off horrible for his insolence.
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  2. #62

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    Marvel villains aren't lame (overall they tend to be more powerful then DC villains) but they haven't been written as well they should be. Take Cvil war, for example, you have the super hero community fighting eachother and no villain has taken advantage of this. What did Millar go around and remove the balls of every villain in MU, before Civil war started? It seems like DC villains are more "on the ball" then Marvel villains, at this point.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    Marvel villains aren't lame (overall they tend to be more powerful then DC villains) but they haven't been written as well they should be. Take Cvil war, for example, you have the super hero community fighting eachother and no villain has taken advantage of this. What did Millar go around and remove the balls of every villain in MU, before Civil war started? It seems like DC villains are more "on the ball" then Marvel villains, at this point.
    Marvel villians all have their own usually very focused interets and aren't that centered on simply getting back on their "hero" rivals.

  4. #64
    Administrator Expletive Deleted's Avatar
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    Most of the street level baddies were caught up in the whole T-Bolts deal, most of the cosmic baddies were caught up in the Annihilation War, and everyone else was just smart enough to let the heroes angst each other to death.
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  5. #65
    man without fear, pants overcomebyfumes's Avatar
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    I'm an hardcore Marvel Zombie, so I probably don't know as much about DC's villians as I should...

    ...but as for Marvel's villians, here's the thing.

    Just like Marvel's all about the flawed and human super-hero, Marvel's best villians are just as flawed - sure they're evil, but the also have some quality, that if allowed to shine through, could concieviably redeem them.

    Look at how many Marvel heroes were former villians - Hawkeye, the Black Widow, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch hopped back and forth between the Avengers and the Brotherhood a few times in the early days, the Black Knight, Wonder Man, Rogue, Banshee, Emma Frost - all before the Thunderbolts were even concieved of.

    I think the line between hero and villian is much closer in the Marvel Universe than in the DC universe.

    Look at Dr. Doom. Evil, right? Yet no mater how you slice it, he's an able, intelligent, and pragmatic ruler, his nation loves him, and he has a certain nobility that even writers deliberately attempting to present him at his worst can't fully conceal. How much really separates Dr. Doom and and a hero like Namor? - both are rulers, both arrogant, both noble. Yet Doom is largely a villian and Namor mostly (but not always) a hero. Why? Well, Doom crosses the line from "arrogant" to "insanely meglomanical" once in a while perhaps,... but I'd still love to see a story where Doom, to furthur his own ends, is forced to work with Reed, and they are able to actually, finally, resolve their differences. It would take an amazing writer to pull it off convincingly, and it would be a milestone in the MU. Reed and Doom call an end to their feud and shake hands. Wow. That has the potential to be an amazing story.

    Magneto has crossed the line from hero to villian and back several times over the years.

    The Kingpin... displays masterful psychological insight, and he deeply and truely loves his wife.

    ...but my point is, with the best Marvel baddies, one gets the sense that, if they only came around things from a different point of view, they could be heroes, they could be good guys.

    Now, Marvel falls down in three places.

    The first example of "bad Marvel villian" (bad in the sense of poor, not evil) is the motiveless psycho. Villians who do what they do for essentially no reason (Carnage I feel falls into this category). Or villians that want power solely for the sake of power. That's why, say, Morgan leFay (from the Avengers) is a bad villian. Why does she want to conquer the earth? Who the hell knows? - she just does. This is why I feel that Kang will never make the "A-List" villians (other than the time-travel thing). Why does Kang conquer? Don't know. Don't care. It's just his thing.

    Second, is the villian who is the hero's "evil mirror" - the villian created solely to be an evil version of a hero. I hate these. It started with Spider-Man/Venom, graduated to Wolverine/Sabertooth, and then got completely out of ridiculous (Ghost Rider/Vengence anybody?) Such villians tend to be shallow, poorly realized and poorly developed. And they force the heroes into an endless cycle of "oooh, can Wolverine finally beat Sabertooth THIS time" stories, which don't develop the characters of either the heroes OR the villians. And THEN, when those stories get played out, a new, "badder-ass" version (like Carnage) has to get rolled out to freshen the stale air.

    Third, Marvel doesn't really know how to handle the "mooks". Look at the Wrecking Crew. These guys have had their asses handed to them so many times they're essentially a joke. The Runaways beat them down. Any villian that has no chance of winning should be permanantly retired. (How do you look yourself in the mirror the morning after the Runaways kick your ass? How do you ever put on your criminal spandex again?)

    Side note - There should be a moritorium on robbing banks. Who robs banks anymore? Other than the Wrecking Crew and likeminded Marel villians? Heroes breaking up bank robberies is so cliched at this point it should never be shown in a comic book again. Villians robbing banks was cliched in the nineteen thirties. Seventy years later, there are still Marvel villians that only aspire to a good bank robbery. You would think that brilliant criminal schemes would have evolved somewhat over the years.

    But I digress.

    The mooks, the thugs, the low-level baddies. Marvel never seems to portray them well. Who joins Hydra? Why would anyone join Hydra or AIM if they're only going to get thrown at much better trained and equipped SHIELD agents and Captain America or the occasional Avenger? Who ARE these people?

    Why would anyone want to still be in an outfiit like the Wrecking Crew or the Zodiac in the face of constant defeat? Or want to dress up as Stiltman? Why does one get up and say, day after day, "Gee, I like dressing up as the (insert lame villian here) and getting my ass kicked?" What keeps these guys going? I wish Marvel would take the time to develop some of these people so we can understand why they do what they do.

    Marvel's best villians are fully realized people, just as flawed and human and deep as the heroes. They also have the potential to become heroes if the circumstances warrant.

    Marvel's worst villians are completely inexplicable and behave in ways totally contrary to human nature.

    Pax.
    Last edited by overcomebyfumes; 12-30-2006 at 11:08 PM.
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  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expletive Deleted View Post
    Most of the street level baddies were caught up in the whole T-Bolts deal, most of the cosmic baddies were caught up in the Annihilation War, and everyone else was just smart enough to let the heroes angst each other to death.
    Bah, that's lazy writing. What about the international threat villains? The Mad Thinker, for example, could have devised a computer virus to overide the nano controls used on the T-bolt villains and thus would have had his own super villain army. Instead he killed a yancy street gang member and made the thing move to France. God, how lame. Is there no villain in MU that has any balls?
    Last edited by The Master Meglomaniac; 12-30-2006 at 11:15 PM.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Marvel villians all have their own usually very focused interets and aren't that centered on simply getting back on their "hero" rivals.
    With the heroes fighting eachother, a clever villain could come up with a clever plan to take over the world or something, not just sit on his ass, do nothing while the super hero community is destorying itself. Villains should be proactive.

  8. #68
    Administrator Expletive Deleted's Avatar
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    It's lazy fanspec, actually. The issue really isn't addressed in the text.

    But, regardless, the villains aren't (for the most part) capitalizing on the turmoil because that would draw attention away from the turmoil. The focus of the current storyline is hero vs. hero. Toss a supervillain army in there, and it's an entirely different animal that Marvel isn't interested in at the moment.

    We can either suspend our disbelief and just ignore it, or we can go the no-prize route and come up with excuses.
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  9. #69
    Whiz Kids Vs. Witchcraft! tangentman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huzzah! View Post
    are you freaking kidding me? DC villains blow so hard when 4 get together tsunami alarms start going off.
    Spoken like one who has never read Suicide Squad, Villains United, Secret Six...

  10. #70
    Senior Member AllisterH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Spoken like one who has never read Suicide Squad, Villains United, Secret Six...
    Actually, I've read all of these and it kind of reinforces the idea that DC villains suck when compared to the heroes.

    Take Villains United for example, where among the inner six, only Adam himself is a match for the heroes (excusing the WTF factor that is deathstroke when facing Green Lantern) whereas the marvel equivalent, the inner group of Acts of Vengeance would savage any marvel team.

    As for Suicide Squad and the Secret Six, notice how effective they are against other villains and NOT against the heroes themselves. Hell, how about the Squad who have lost members against REGULAR mooks. Not superheros but just goons with guns.

    Marvel villains are just plain tougher and stronger than their DC equivalents.

  11. #71
    Veteran Member Magneto Rocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    With the heroes fighting eachother, a clever villain could come up with a clever plan to take over the world or something, not just sit on his ass, do nothing while the super hero community is destorying itself. Villains should be proactive.
    To be fair, we are told most of the villains who sat it out will be returning next year. Most losers are in the Tbolts and the like. But how many active genii are there really? Count Nefaria is sitting somewhere in obscurity, Ultron is dead... again... Magneto is missing until UXM 500, Apocalypse is caught in God knows where, Doom is... well, Doom has done nothing. And it's Doom. And if Doctor Doom is doing nothing but supplying Red Skull while Mr Fantastic is isolated and alone... then the marvel heroes better be quaking in their tights when he makes his move, because if he hasnt taken this oppurtunity he is planning something COLOSSAL.
    "After all, John McCain's led a very Biblical life. Like his namesake Cain, he is not afraid to go negative on a brother. Like John the Baptist, he paved the way for the new Messiah, and like Moses, he takes advice from a Bush who is going up in flames."- Stephen Colbert

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expletive Deleted View Post
    It's lazy fanspec, actually. The issue really isn't addressed in the text.

    But, regardless, the villains aren't (for the most part) capitalizing on the turmoil because that would draw attention away from the turmoil. The focus of the current storyline is hero vs. hero. Toss a supervillain army in there, and it's an entirely different animal that Marvel isn't interested in at the moment.

    We can either suspend our disbelief and just ignore it, or we can go the no-prize route and come up with excuses.
    Still a clever villain can inact a sutble plan and try and get something done. Whle the heroes are fighting eachother, slowly, but surely advance an evil plan to take over the world, the heroes will have other things to worry about.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magneto Rocks View Post
    To be fair, we are told most of the villains who sat it out will be returning next year. Most losers are in the Tbolts and the like. But how many active genii are there really? Count Nefaria is sitting somewhere in obscurity, Ultron is dead... again... Magneto is missing until UXM 500, Apocalypse is caught in God knows where, Doom is... well, Doom has done nothing. And it's Doom. And if Doctor Doom is doing nothing but supplying Red Skull while Mr Fantastic is isolated and alone... then the marvel heroes better be quaking in their tights when he makes his move, because if he hasnt taken this oppurtunity he is planning something COLOSSAL.
    Let's see, what's to stop them from taking Nefaria out of comic book limbo? The Leader is still around, I think. The Mad Thinker is still active, though the best he did was make Thing move to France. What about Shaw, couldn't he do something with this?

    As Ultron, he has been deactivated a million times already, why would hs latest "death" stop him? What about Kang, there could always be another Kang hanging around in the time stream.

    Plus Doom and the Red Skull are still around. Heck even a goober like the Wizard should be able to do something.

  14. #74
    Administrator Expletive Deleted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    Still a clever villain can inact a sutble plan and try and get something done.
    And I'm sure we'll find out, some months from now when Marvel has moved on, that some big time bad guys will have retroactively been doing just that.

    But those major villains are not going to be written into what's going on right now, because that would foul up what Marvel is trying to do with the CIVIL WAR storyline. Sure, they could have the Leader take advantage of the chaos and detonate a gamma bomb in downtown Cleveland, but that would change the storyline into something completely different. Storytelling always, always trumps that kind of internal continuity.

    I'd probably like a big supervillain/superhero throwdown better, too. But that's an entirely different discussion.
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  15. #75
    Veteran Member DDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overcomebyfumes View Post
    Look at how many Marvel heroes were former villians - Hawkeye, the Black Widow, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch hopped back and forth between the Avengers and the Brotherhood a few times in the early days, the Black Knight, Wonder Man, Rogue, Banshee, Emma Frost - all before the Thunderbolts were even concieved of.
    Banshee was forced into being a villain for the Factor Three; he was not a true villain, but coericed into service. The same also applies to the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, & Wonder Man.

    Hawkeye began as a villain, but changed over time. He never intentionally murdered anyone either. Hawkeye joined the Avengers to redeem his villain ways.

    The Black Widow used to be a spy for the Soviet Union. She was only the enemy as long as the Soviet Union existed, or, in her case, she left to live in America. And she joined the Avengers.

    Rogue's role from villain to hero is largely due to the permanent absorption of Carol Danvers, Ms. Marvel; Rogue could not cope with the second psyche in her mind which slowly drove her mad. It's one of the reasons she sought out Xavier for help.

    On the other hand, Emma Frost, as the infamous White Queen of the Hellfire Club has indeed murdered in cold blood--former White Queen Paris Seville & the whole Council of the Chosen--to rise in the ranks of the Hellfire Club (Classic X-Men #7). The White Queen is also responsible, in part, for Phoenix's corruption into the Black Queen when she gave Mastermind artificial telepathy via her "mindtap mechanism" (Uncanny X-Men #125-134). The White Queen also infiltrated the X-Men as Storm & used her telepathy to make Kitty's parents switch her from Professor Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters to the Massachusettes Academy (Uncanny X-Men #151-152). The White Queen has tried on numerous occassions to subvert Kitty Pryde & the New Mutants (The New Mutants #15-17, 38-40). The White Queen tried to kill Selene, Black Queen, through brainwashing the teenager, Firestar, with another electronic device & make Angelica fear the X-Men (Firestar #1-4). Emma Frost is evil. And I think she is still a villain at heart.

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