Why are Marvel villains so lame!?

[XPac]

See, I could maybe be persuaded to agree with you on Doom and Magneto, but no to Thanos. Thanos IMO is a cheap and uninteresting rip off of Darkseid in practically every way possible.



You know how? When the villain actually succeeds sometimes like when they kill a sidekick (Joker), destroy an entire city (Mongul and Cyborg Superman), kill a girlfriend/wife (Green Goblin/Zoom), or commit mass genocide (Ultron).

I disagree. I think Starlin handled Thanos in a way that put Darkseid to shame.

Pre-Crisis Darkseid was pretty darn impressive, but since then he's been watered down to the point where he's just a high end brick with laser beams coming out of his eyes. Final Crisis managed to make him a bit scary again... but ultimately that character has been riding his own coat tails for years.

And that's in huge contrast to Thanos, who evolved as a character without ever losing his credibility. Thanos is an example of how to handle a high end villain right.

[Iron Maiden]

See, I could maybe be persuaded to agree with you on Doom and Magneto. Emphasis on maybe because I hardly think anyone can put Lex Luthor, Joker, or Sinestro to shame. However, absolutely, unequivocally NO to Thanos. Thanos IMO is a cheap and uninteresting rip off of Darkseid in practically every way possible.
You know how? When the villain actually succeeds sometimes like when they kill a sidekick (Joker), destroy an entire city (Mongul and Cyborg Superman), kill a girlfriend/wife (Green Goblin/Zoom), or commit mass genocide (Ultron).

If that is your yardstick for measuring what elements of a villain makes the best than I would say that was a narrow in scope. I think it is the "why" that makes a villain interesting. Any garden variety psycho could have killed Gwen Stacy. Mass genocide can be commited by any nut with a gun or with the means to build an explosive device. Magneto was elevated beyond being just a meglomaniac leading the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants when we knew what motivated him to distrust mankind. The shades of gray that their characters are painted with makes them memorable. Doom is not out to slaughter everyone on the planet. He thinks he can actually lead the world down a better path where there is zero tolerance on crime and a more balanced distribution of resources (see "Emperor Doom") The problem is he doesn't brook any dissension in the ranks and would eliminate or greatly reduce a lot of liberties and the freedom to choose.

[Zeeguy91]

If that is your yardstick for measuring what elements of a villain makes the best than I would say that was a narrow in scope. I think it is the "why" that makes a villain interesting. Any garden variety psycho could have killed Gwen Stacy. Mass genocide can be commited by any nut with a gun or with the means to build an explosive device. Magneto was elevated beyond being just a meglomaniac leading the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants when we knew what motivated him to distrust mankind. The shades of gray that their characters are painted with makes them memorable. Doom is not out to slaughter everyone on the planet. He thinks he can actually lead the world down a better path where there is zero tolerance on crime and a more balanced distribution of resources (see "Emperor Doom") The problem is he doesn't brook any dissension in the ranks and would eliminate or greatly reduce a lot of liberties and the freedom to choose.

I didn't say that accomplishments were all that mattered to me. Of course I take into account the motivation of each villain, but what they're able to do matters just as much. Even if a villain can be layered and complex as possible, but it wouldn't matter much if they aren't able to take that motivation and transform it into actions that fundamentally impact the hero. My criteria for measuring a great villain includes motive, accomplishments, threat level, modus operandi, and overall creativity.

[mathew101281]

Anyone ever notice that their really aren't to many high end(powerwise) female or minority villains of note in either universe? Though I think marvel has a slight advantage in this regard with powerful female antagonist like the Echantress and the Dark Phoenix.

[Zeeguy91]

I disagree. I think Starlin handled Thanos in a way that put Darkseid to shame.

I can't even take this sentence seriously.

Pre-Crisis Darkseid was pretty darn impressive, but since then he's been watered down to the point where he's just a high end brick with laser beams coming out of his eyes. Final Crisis managed to make him a bit scary again... but ultimately that character has been riding his own coat tails for years.

Well, lets see what he's been able to accomplish post-crisis, shall we. First he was able to turn almost the entire population of Earth against their own heroes in Legends, then he brainwashed Supergirl into being his minion and attacking Superman, and, oh yeah, put the entire universe in danger and was able to manipulate all life in Final Crisis, etc. In almost every incarnation out there, from the comics version to the animated version from the DCAU, Darkseid has been shown himself to be nothing less than a brilliant strategist and tactician, and what is perhaps the most appealing trait of Darkseid's is that he is powerful to beat down almost every hero in the DCU, but he chooses to operate from the shadows. He doesn't leap into a fight, but instead analyzes a way that he doesn't have to get his hands dirty, the sign of a master manipulator. Darkseid is made only more complex when analyzing his role as the ruler of Apokolips and his diplomatic and political exchanges with Highfather and the gods of New Genesis (including the exchange of their respective sons). This complexity is something that Thanos severely lacks. Thanos' major motivation is that he is in love with mistress death and he tries to win her approval, which is a pretty weak and cliched motivation for any character and he's essentially a brute with no capacity to plan ahead.

And that's in huge contrast to Thanos, who evolved as a character without ever losing his credibility. Thanos is an example of how to handle a high end villain right.

If by right you mean take everything that makes another villain unique and then try to replicate that. Thanos' quest for the Infinity Gems/Gauntlet is pretty much the same as Darkseid's quest for the Anti-Life Equation. The Eternals to which Thanos belonged was pretty much Starlin's attempt at cloning the New Gods. Thanos essentially lost all credibility the day that Starlin attempted to make him Marvel's Darkseid. In the end, Thanos will always be at a disadvantage because of one simple fact: Darkseid is the original and the more layered character. So in this case, the original is always better.

[Iron Maiden]

Anyone ever notice that their really aren't to many high end(powerwise) female or minority villains of note in either universe? Though I think marvel has a slight advantage in this regard with powerful female antagonist like the Echantress and the Dark Phoenix.

Magneto is Jewish but seldom is painted as an out and out villain , Doom is a Romani (gypsy) but it's rarely mentioned these days. I'd like to see more female villains. Winter Soldier is using Lucia von Bardas as the main threat right now. Then there's Dr. Rapaccini (can't remember her last name!) who's appeared in the New Avengers recently. On the mystical/immortal side you also have Hela and Morgan Le Fey. There's very few female meglomaniacs though.

[Joe Acro]

Darkseid is the original and the more layered character. So in this case, the original is always better.

But does that necessarily make him lame?

[XPac]

I can't even take this sentence seriously.



Well, lets see what he's been able to accomplish post-crisis, shall we. First he was able to turn almost the entire population of Earth against their own heroes in Legends, then he brainwashed Supergirl into being his minion and attacking Superman, and, oh yeah, put the entire universe in danger and was able to manipulate all life in Final Crisis, etc. In almost every incarnation out there, from the comics version to the animated version from the DCAU, Darkseid has been shown himself to be nothing less than a brilliant strategist and tactician, and what is perhaps the most appealing trait of Darkseid's is that he is powerful to beat down almost every hero in the DCU, but he chooses to operate from the shadows. He doesn't leap into a fight, but instead analyzes a way that he doesn't have to get his hands dirty, the sign of a master manipulator. Darkseid is made only more complex when analyzing his role as the ruler of Apokolips and his diplomatic and political exchanges with Highfather and the gods of New Genesis (including the exchange of their respective sons). This complexity is something that Thanos severely lacks. Thanos' major motivation is that he is in love with mistress death and he tries to win her approval, which is a pretty weak and cliched motivation for any character and he's essentially a brute with no capacity to plan ahead.



If by right you mean take everything that makes another villain unique and then try to replicate that. Thanos' quest for the Infinity Gems/Gauntlet is pretty much the same as Darkseid's quest for the Anti-Life Equation. The Eternals to which Thanos belonged was pretty much Starlin's attempt at cloning the New Gods. Thanos essentially lost all credibility the day that Starlin attempted to make him Marvel's Darkseid. In the end, Thanos will always be at a disadvantage because of one simple fact: Darkseid is the original and the more layered character. So in this case, the original is always better.

If we're judging them purely on feats Thanos wins. Thanos has literally become the most powerful being in the universe on multiple occasions. While it's taken Darkseid decades and decades to get the anti-life equation, Thanos has managed to gain cosmic cubes, infenity gems, the heart of universe, and just about any other plot device he's ever wanted to acquire. For all of Darkseids hype, he truthfully hasn't done that much post Crisis until Final Crisis. You cite brainwashing Supergirl like that's a big deal... Ringmaster has brainwashed She-Hulk and that guy normally robs people in a circus.

Do I think he's a brilliant strategist and tactician? I'll say he's smarter than your atypical villain sure. I wouldn't say he's smarter than Thanos personally... given his track record I can't help but think it would have taken Thanos a week and a half to get the anti-life equation if he really wanted it. The fact that you're describing him as a brute with no capacity to plan ahead tells me you haven't read a single Thanos story ever written, so I guess we can end the conversation right there.

[XPac]

Anyone ever notice that their really aren't to many high end(powerwise) female or minority villains of note in either universe? Though I think marvel has a slight advantage in this regard with powerful female antagonist like the Echantress and the Dark Phoenix.

I count Apocalyse as a minority (he's Egyptian), and I think he's up there as far as villains go.

I guess you can cite Wanda and Dark Phoenix as high end females... though the fact that they're both insane probably doesn't help them from a PR standpoint.

[tigerkaya]

Magneto is Jewish but seldom is painted as an out and out villain , Doom is a Romani (gypsy) but it's rarely mentioned these days. I'd like to see more female villains. Winter Soldier is using Lucia von Bardas as the main threat right now. Then there's Dr. Rapaccini (can't remember her last name!) who's appeared in the New Avengers recently. On the mystical/immortal side you also have Hela and Morgan Le Fey. There's very few female meglomaniacs though.

I don't know if i'd put Hela there she seems more like a neutral who's only focused on her domain and subjects.

[nosocialize100]

Doom
Magneto
Galactus
These are villains with interesting agendas. They definitely stand up to most DC villains. Unfortunately many Marvel villains are just cheap replicas of the heroes they fight such as,
Venom
Sabertooth
Abomination
Stryfe

That said, not sure how many DC villains I'm a big fan of. Joker is good, Lex Luthor…Sinestro?

[Zeeguy91]

Do I think he's a brilliant strategist and tactician? I'll say he's smarter than your atypical villain sure. I wouldn't say he's smarter than Thanos personally... given his track record I can't help but think it would have taken Thanos a week and a half to get the anti-life equation if he really wanted it. The fact that you're describing him as a brute with no capacity to plan ahead tells me you haven't read a single Thanos story ever written, so I guess we can end the conversation right there.

I hardly think so. This statement just shows the level of your Thanos fanboyism, which is kind of unrealistic. The Anti-Life Equation isn't like the Infinity Gems or Cosmic Cubes. Its an intangible principle that must be sussed out instead of simply found and utilized.

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that the character is a direct rip off of Darkseid. This is a direct quote from Roy (Thomas, I'm assuming) from when Jim Starlin showed him his sketches of Thanos: "Beef him up! If you're going to steal one of the New Gods, at least rip off Darkseid, the really good one!"

[XPac]

I hardly think so. This statement just shows the level of your Thanos fanboyism, which is kind of unrealistic. The Anti-Life Equation isn't like the Infinity Gems or Cosmic Cubes. Its an intangible principle that must be sussed out instead of simply found and utilized.

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that the character is a direct rip off of Darkseid. This is a direct quote from Roy (Thomas, I'm assuming) from when Jim Starlin showed him his sketches of Thanos: "Beef him up! If you're going to steal one of the New Gods, at least rip off Darkseid, the really good one!"

Perhaps. All I can do is speculate. Every plot device Thanos has ever sought to get, he's gotten. So I'll stand by that track record, since it frankly is all we have to go by.

[Treqqor]

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that the character is a direct rip off of Darkseid. This is a direct quote from Roy (Thomas, I'm assuming) from when Jim Starlin showed him his sketches of Thanos: "Beef him up! If you're going to steal one of the New Gods, at least rip off Darkseid, the really good one!"

You want to try putting that quote in context, maybe, instead of just using your half truth?
From Starlin himself (the guy who CREATED him), he was ripped off from Metron:

Kirby had done the New Gods, which I thought was terrific. He was over at DC at the time. I came up with some things that were inspired by that. You'd think that Thanos was inspired by Darkseid, but that was not the case when I showed up. In my first Thanos drawings, if he looked like anybody, it was Metron. I had all these different gods and things I wanted to do, which became Thanos and the Titans. Roy took one look at the guy in the Metron-like chair and said : "Beef him up! If you're going to steal one of the New Gods, at least rip off Darkseid, the really good one!"

And yet, look at how Thanos was drawn when he first appeared. Not very imposing at all, it wasn't until later that this happened.

[RDMacQ]

Answer: They're not.

.............

Wow, that was easy. What's next on the docket.