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  1. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... If you want to accuse me of looking TOO closely at the page and inferring too much, that would be OK; it's arguable.
    Ok, let's go with that. That feels like we're speaking the same language here.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 02-28-2014 at 10:59 PM.
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  2. #137
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Azzarello is a very skilled writer, particularly when it comes to plotting. I think that's easily one of the strongest aspects of the story (and will be a great strength for Future's End). So it's certainly not out of the question that Azzarello has more in store for us on this. But, as Rob pointed out, I tend to stick to the pages we have. If/when new info comes along, I'll be happy to rethink any and all criticism, concerns, compliments, etc.
    The other threads we have announcing a new creative team have a certain sense of credibility for me as opposed to rumors because we do know Azzarello and Chiang have their bags packed and ready to go soon. I'm not really sure (because of the book's pacing) that he'll have much time to tie up all loose ends in a manner that I would find satisfactory without feeling rushed.

    SL is right in that the fight with FBorn was probably a huge fight seeing as to how Azzarello doesn't like to write them and perhaps he rushed it or didn't approach it thoroughly. I'm glad it works for SLVN since he is very creative and enjoys interpreting the unsaid or unseen sometimes. He'd rather figure out what happened than be shown. There's a certain merit to that. I thought that was a great issue! Great action, for once! But was it a WW Vs. Genocide? Nope. I know everyone hated Genocide and the whole topic of it, but I really liked it and the book (for me) had a great sense of urgency, OMG, WTH,WTF, and OH S*** to it.

    The fight of Not-Aleka (Artemis) vs. The White Magician was also an issue where you knew some s*** was coming down the pike. I would've understood 3-DAY Comas after those. But here? yeah.. I just didn't "feel" that and it was a little weird to read that.

    But hey.. that's OK! It's not as if I didn't enjoy the 3-DAY Coma idea for what it was. If we all agreed on everything I guess there would be not much to discuss around here!

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMAN63 View Post

    The funny thing about this example, for me, is that this bloodshed happens after little more than a one-page beating. (She takes a few hits on pages 18-21, but the great bulk of the very one-sided beating of Diana by Genocide was one page, 22, right before the one you show above.) So I think that there could also be an argument that this outcome was abrupt and not really "earned" in v3 #26. Certainly, the bloody wounds are obvious--but they were inflicted a little quickly and easily.

    In v4 #22, the coma's surprising, absolutely--largely because her wounds were internal, as we find out in 22. We agree that we were not led to expect the comma' sorry to keep repeating that, but I get the impression that you thought I was saying otherwise. But after being surprised, I look back and realize that it happened not after one to four pages but after two straight issues of fighting with Artemis and then First Born, and that Artemis points out Wonder Woman was fighting gods while repressing her own god power. None of that is "wandering"; it's all on the page.

    You might care about that, because you wanted the intensity of the fight and the severity of its results to be immediately clear. That's a valid and legitimate criticism that your and others are making; I may not share it, but I don't think it's unreasonable at all. I just doubt that the reasons it was done this way was that Azz and Chiang were "rushed" or anything like that. They have pretty consistently chosen not to be obvious. If you think that in this case that was a terrible choice, you're not wrong; it was terrible by your criteria. But I think it's what they were going for, and you just have different taste than they do.
    Last edited by slvn; 03-01-2014 at 08:29 AM.

  4. #139
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    Internal injueries are the trick...no one can see with bare eyes and the outside sometimes doesn't show it. It can or not be true. Really clever Azz.
    I know about some internal injuries stories that people died

  5. #140
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    Internal injueries are the trick...no one can see with bare eyes and the outside sometimes doesn't show it. It can or not be true. Really clever Azz.
    I know about some internal injuries stories that people died
    So...later on in the next issue, when a main character dies, like Wondy, we can chalk it up to internal injuries that can neither be seen or written about and call it a clever ploy? Don't really think that is a comic I would care to buy, and I won't give Azz that kind of credit for what he did when the induced coma came up.

  6. #141
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    So...later on in the next issue, when a main character dies, like Wondy, we can chalk it up to internal injuries that can neither be seen or written about and call it a clever ploy? Don't really think that is a comic I would care to buy, and I won't give Azz that kind of credit for what he did when the induced coma came up.
    Like I said it can be or not true the internal injuries, since nobody can see with bare eyes. it can be a good excuse to put her in coma even not being true.

  7. #142
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    I don't like fight scenes in comics, but...

    This isn't a novel. It is graphic storytelling. If the graphics are not telling the story that needs to be told (the intensity of the fight), then that is a weakness. Whether it is by choice or not by choice, is beside the point (and also something that we do not know).

    If Doomsday had killed Superman because of unseen internal injuries from a few slugs, there would have been a bit of fan uproar.

    Every artist does not excel equally in every aspect of the genre. WW has had a quite a few artists who have been weak in their depiction of action. Drew Johnson was particularly weak in this area. Chiang's work also has a tendency to "sit" on the page and let Azzarello's words do the informing.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    I don't like fight scenes in comics, but...

    This isn't a novel. It is graphic storytelling. If the graphics are not telling the story that needs to be told (the intensity of the fight)...
    Where I differ with some is apparently in our sense of what story "needed to be told" in 20-21. I don't think we "needed to be told" or even shown in 21 to 22 that a medical coma woul dbe needed, because even in graphic storytelling irt can be good to be surprised , and so everything doesn't have to be graphically obvious or even visible upfront. Sometimes it can be interesting to find out that an event, such as a fight, was more impactful than it appeared a the time. No, that wouldn't have worked in a blockbuster event like Death of Superman; but then again, there's probably very little that Azz and Chiang are doing that would have worked in Death of Superman. And that's fine with me. This is all very subjective; just as all artists aren't equally strong in all aspects of their craft, they're not all equally strong for all audiences. And while it's true that I can't read the artists' minds to know their intentions, I can see that they're working in a very different style from that of death of Superman. That stylistic difference is no accident, and it's a style in which there's more room for a surprise like the coma in issue 22.

    Storytelling isn't arithmetic. Every choice that you or I don't like isn't necessarily an error. It's a bad choice from your or my point of view, but not objectively an error.

    Chiang's work also has a tendency to "sit" on the page and let Azzarello's words do the informing.
    For me, Chiang's work does more than it's share of the "informing" and the storytelling. For example, pivoting back to 28, think of the scene in which Diana and the Minotaur are put together; it seems to me that the image does a lot of work there.
    Last edited by slvn; 03-01-2014 at 01:31 PM.

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