Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19
  1. #1
    Mild-Mannered Reporter
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    28,986

    Default THE COLOR BARRIER: Writer Geoffrey Thorne Wants Imaginary World to Reflect Real World

    In the latest installment of CBR series "The Color Barrier," Joseph Illidge talks with Geoffrey Thorne about his work and industry perspective.


    Full article here.

  2. #2
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Staten Island
    Posts
    13,776

    Default

    Haha, Mr. Throne poked a few hornets nests. One he already knows all too well about (the black consumers topic), the other one honestly should be a given but for some reason isn't (Oracle > Batgirl), and the other is a pretty unfortunate truth (DC and Marvel don't have to give a damn about diversity in talent, characters, or audience... Though I think they should if they want better sales).

    All inside a great interview. Awesome job! Oh, and I totally recommend reading Prodigal!
    Last edited by Double 0; 02-12-2014 at 09:50 AM.
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible."


    - Stanisław Jerzy Lec

    http://naijamanexe.tumblr.com

  3. #3
    Earth Fun (Party Earth) Mr_Wayne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Just outside of Gotham near Bludhaven.
    Posts
    782

    Default

    I needed to read this. Thank you for having this interview!
    “I've always wanted to diversify the DCU, but usually when I do it, James Robinson comes along and kills them all.“ -Grant Morrison

  4. #4
    I'm not a sidekick Kasper Cole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    11,312

    Default

    Damn good interview.

    Was absolutely not expecting the comment about Oracle.

    I'm still not sure about the whole "voting with your dollars" thing. To me it's something that works in theory but in practice I wonder if it would actually work. Are there enough of us that care about comic book diversity to put enough of a dent in profits for the major companies to even notice?

  5. #5
    morituri te salutant Winterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lost Angles, USA
    Posts
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    Damn good interview.

    Was absolutely not expecting the comment about Oracle.

    I'm still not sure about the whole "voting with your dollars" thing. To me it's something that works in theory but in practice I wonder if it would actually work. Are there enough of us that care about comic book diversity to put enough of a dent in profits for the major companies to even notice?
    It's not politics. No one is voting.

    If somebody's not making the product you want, whining about it at them won't change their minds. A better choice is simply to find people or companies who ARE making that product and spend your money there.

    How do you think Marvel comics got so big in the first place? They offered a superior product to what DC was dishing out at the time. Those dissatisfied customers suddenly had somewhere else to go. We, the people on Brian's list and MANY others, are now providing that place.

    If you're happy with the status quo, by definition, this doesn't concern you. if you are UNhappy with it, it's time to man up (or woman up) and start buying elsewhere.
    Last edited by Winterman; 02-11-2014 at 10:32 PM.

  6. #6
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    3,140

    Default

    People already vote with their wallets, so that piece of advice is moot. It's not like underrepresented groups support the big two in droves. The big two are not getting a lot of business from those demographics. They know in the general sense that underrepresented groups aren't that interested in their product. The only way that the big two could know why underrepresented groups are turned off by their product if we tell them why. So telling folks not to blog or 'whine' is useless. The big two may choose not to listen, and they are free to let that business go elsewhere, but they can't say that they don't know why their product is unpopular with certain demographics.

    I would not be surprised if a large percentage of people from underrepresented groups who do read books from the big two were pretty selective about the titles they buy. Some will even buy a title with an overall concept they like, but with horrible execution, just to try and send a message to the publisher. So once again, voting with your wallets isn't useful advice cause folks already do that. In fact I'd argue that its something people do without thinking. People rarely purchase media that is uninteresting to them. The whole point is entertainment, so if it is not entertaining you why bother?
    Last edited by Mecegirl; 02-12-2014 at 12:50 AM.

  7. #7
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    28

    Default

    Really good interview. Up until now I hadn't heard of Prodigal. But after reading this interview and checking it out on Thrillbent, I will definitely be scooping up the first volume on Amazon. Good stuff.
    Check out Mywebbedreviews.com for Spider-Man related reviews, rants and more!

  8. #8
    morituri te salutant Winterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lost Angles, USA
    Posts
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    People already vote with their wallets, so that piece of advice is moot. It's not like underrepresented groups support the big two in droves. The big two are not getting a lot of business from those demographics.
    Proof? How do you know this?

    They know in the general sense that underrepresented groups aren't that interested in their product. The only way that the big two could know why underrepresented groups are turned off by their product if we tell them why. So telling folks not to blog or 'whine' is useless.
    No. empirically, people have been whining about this on this blogs since before blogs started. Nothing has changed based on blogging. Not one hire has been made not one title has been added, changed or cancelled based upon incessant whining about the hiring practices or output of these companies. Not one. In decades. So the useless bit is that whining.

    The big two may choose not to listen, and they are free to let that business go elsewhere, but they can't say that they don't know why their product is unpopular with certain demographics.
    you misunderstand. Shifting the activity of Marvel or DC is not the issue or the goal. Personally, I couldn't care less whether John Stewart is THE Green Lantern or if either company hires a black writer. Nothing we do on our end will alter their practices in this area one jot. Because Marvel and DC aren't political parties; they are businesses and they don't track demographics the way you seem to think they do. They don't need to.

    I would not be surprised if a large percentage of people from underrepresented groups who do read books from the big two were pretty selective about the titles they buy. Some will even buy a title with an overall concept they like, but with horrible execution, just to try and send a message to the publisher.
    Actually, no. In fact, comic book fans often behave like addicts, buying comics they actively DISlike because 1) they can later bitch about how awful they were or 2) because they are completists and can't bear the idea of missing issue 1357-J.6 where Wolverbat FINALLY kills Lexi Doom. They become habituated to the routine of purchasing. Hence the term "Marvel Zombie."

    To get what many claim they want, they have to break this routine. Obviously.

    So once again, voting with your wallets isn't useful advice cause folks already do that. In fact I'd argue that its something people do without thinking. People rarely purchase media that is uninteresting to them. The whole point is entertainment, so if it is not entertaining you why bother?
    If you never look beyond Marvel and DC, how do you know what you're missing? I'm not saying, "find better ways of trying to get the Big Two to change." I couldn't begin to care less about changing them. They do what they do and will continue to do so regardless of a hundred bloggers crying foul on some point or another. Obviously.

    If I had a message it would be, "I hear a lot of whining about the lack of inclusion- some valid and some ridiculous- and it's useless, all of it. People are already making the sorts of titles [you] claim you want to see and they are doing it at a competitive or superior level to the Big Two. So? BUY them. Support them. Or quit whining. Because it's hypocritical and annoying. Either way."

    But I don't have a message. I have comics to sell. Really good comics.

    So, it's part of my job to let people know and to let them know about the others out there who also have really good comics to sell. Because there are a stack of us.

    Brian Cronin's making a list of some of the best, right here on this site.
    Last edited by Winterman; 02-12-2014 at 08:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member MichaelChen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,212

    Default

    I like Oracle better than Batgirl, agreed on that.

  10. #10
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    3,140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterman View Post
    Proof? How do you know this?
    I am specifically talking about underrepresented groups, not all comic fans. It is not some secret that racial minorities and/or women make up a minority of readers for the big two.


    Quote Originally Posted by Winterman View Post
    No. empirically, people have been whining about this on this blogs since before blogs started. Nothing has changed based on blogging. Not one hire has been made not one title has been added, changed or cancelled based upon incessant whining about the hiring practices or output of these companies. Not one. In decades. So the useless bit is that whining.
    Are they mind readers? How are big two are supposed to know what it is that turns readers off if they do not talk about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterman View Post
    you misunderstand. Shifting the activity of Marvel or DC is not the issue or the goal. Personally, I couldn't care less whether John Stewart is THE Green Lantern or if either company hires a black writer. Nothing we do on our end will alter their practices in this area one jot. Because Marvel and DC aren't political parties; they are businesses and they don't track demographics the way you seem to think they do. They don't need to.
    I never said that that was a goal, but I see no harm in people criticizing the media that they consume or would like to consume.


    Quote Originally Posted by Winterman View Post
    Actually, no. In fact, comic book fans often behave like addicts, buying comics they actively DISlike because 1) they can later bitch about how awful they were or 2) because they are completists and can't bear the idea of missing issue 1357-J.6 where Wolverbat FINALLY kills Lexi Doom. They become habituated to the routine of purchasing. Hence the term "Marvel Zombie."
    To get what many claim they want, they have to break this routine. Obviously.
    If you never look beyond Marvel and DC, how do you know what you're missing? I'm not saying, "find better ways of trying to get the Big Two to change." I couldn't begin to care less about changing them. They do what they do and will continue to do so regardless of a hundred bloggers crying foul on some point or another. Obviously.

    If I had a message it would be, "I hear a lot of whining about the lack of inclusion- some valid and some ridiculous- and it's useless, all of it. People are already making the sorts of titles [you] claim you want to see and they are doing it at a competitive or superior level to the Big Two. So? BUY them. Support them. Or quit whining. Because it's hypocritical and annoying. Either way."

    But I don't have a message. I have comics to sell. Really good comics.

    So, it's part of my job to let people know and to let them know about the others out there who also have really good comics to sell. Because there are a stack of us.

    Brian Cronin's making a list of some of the best, right here on this site.
    I am not talking about all comic book fans. I am talking about fans from underrepresented groups. And fans from those groups already do everything you have described. Including purchase books from publishers outside the big two. But a large portion of the ones who do still buy books from the big two, do not behave how you have described. They are very picky about the books they purchase from those companies. The reason why people still criticize the big two is because the big two is the face of the comic book medium and often release works that deserve criticism.

  11. #11
    morituri te salutant Winterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lost Angles, USA
    Posts
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    I am specifically talking about underrepresented groups, not all comic fans. It is not some secret that racial minorities and/or women make up a minority of readers for the big two.

    Are they mind readers? How are big two are supposed to know what it is that turns readers off if they do not talk about it?

    I never said that that was a goal, but I see no harm in people criticizing the media that they consume or would like to consume.

    I am not talking about all comic book fans. I am talking about fans from underrepresented groups. And fans from those groups already do everything you have described. Including purchase books from publishers outside the big two. But a large portion of the ones who do still buy books from the big two, do not behave how you have described. They are very picky about the books they purchase from those companies. The reason why people still criticize the big two is because the big two is the face of the comic book medium and often release works that deserve criticism.
    Three things:

    You have no data to support your assertions about what "minority fans" do or do not do. Nor do you have any data about what "a large portion of them" do. No such data has been collected. I would imagine this is because no one is interested in knowing. I don't make comics for "minority" fans. I make comics for people who like good comics that are inclusive.

    I never said there was any "harm" in whining, btw. It's just useless. Unless you just like to vent. If no one is listening to you, who cares what your criticism is? No one at Marvel or DC makes a single decision based upon the bitching about their product in blogs. Not one decision. Ever. I'm a practical person and not a fan of wasting time or energy on useless activities. Mileage varies.

    As I said, if you're fine with the status quo, I am, by definition, not talking to you. Carry on enjoying what you enjoy. No harm, no foul.

    if, however, you are deeply unsatisfied with that product, yet continue to purchase it in hopes of some change, I would like to disabuse you of that fallacy and offer a real, quality alternative.

  12. #12
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Staten Island
    Posts
    13,776

    Default

    Now, I know the whole "blame the fans" or "don't blame the fans" thing will probably continue to rage on for feels like a very long time...

    But I do wonder why retailers aren't brought up in these arguments more often? They are the ones actually buying the comics (unless we're talking digital or independently distributed comics).

    I mean, it's a big reason why I stopped buying print. Some shops would just not order any copies of some of the comics I wanted, and I didn't want to have to deal with all the subscribing and pre-ordering stuff. Digital was just simpler.

    But digital seems to not mean much when it comes to sales.
    Last edited by Double 0; 02-12-2014 at 12:13 PM.
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible."


    - Stanisław Jerzy Lec

    http://naijamanexe.tumblr.com

  13. #13
    Great White North Brian from Canada's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    1,611

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    The reason why people still criticize the big two is because the big two is the face of the comic book medium and often release works that deserve criticism.
    The reason why people still criticize the big two is because the big two ARE the medium, at least on the level of national consciousness. If one of them were to close, it would be a major blow —*unlike the minor publishers, who account for far too little too really make a national-level impact. And that's the key: national level. When a minor publisher does it, it may get a human interest story on the local news; if a major publisher like DC, Marvel or Archie — one who's characters have been in the public eye for more than one generation — responds, then it's a talking point.

    This is why Archie's introduction of an openly gay character made national headlines. Same with DC's blocking a gay marriage, Marvel's Muslim characters, etc. The brands are so well known, it's a major step forward for minority groups in getting national recognition and acceptance.
    Now with a blog! Visit: http://bfromc.wordpress.com

  14. #14
    Great White North Brian from Canada's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    1,611

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    But I do wonder why retailers aren't brought up in these arguments more often? They are the ones actually buying the comics (unless we're talking digital or independently distributed comics).
    Retailers buy on behalf of customers. Under the direct system, any product not sold is money lost — so, therefore, it's demand that dictates orders not social conscience.

    As someone who managed a retail outlet, I ordered books based on what I expected my customers to buy. If there were books I did not order — even from Marvel and DC — it was because we were traditionally selling maybe one copy off the shelves every seven to eight months… and those who did buy the book rarely added them to their pull list or came back for the next issue. It was more profitable to ask a back issue dealer to get us the issue by the end of the week on demand than order the copy (which led to problems with the owner, who would order one of every book by Marvel and DC automatically at the cost of other merchandise that had guaranteed sales).

    Realistically, if the publishers want to get retailers to push their books, they need to go to the retailers and get them to realize what the books are about — and not at conventions, because almost all retailers there are far more interested in recovering the costs of their tables. Incentives for purchasing that don't involve variant covers, promotions, etc. are needed.

    To me, though I am no longer involved in that business, the best option for getting noticed — other than to use the Internet — is to get together with all the other small publishers and force Diamond to create a monthly independent comics promotion that includes sample issues with descriptors as to who might enjoy your book, as well as what incentives are being offered on these titles for the moment hoping that some of those retailers will actually read it. (The store I worked at, the owner thought sampling comics a waste of company time… you should be organizing the Magic cards and keeping pace on that because it was what he felt were his store's raisons d'ętre.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    But digital seems to not mean much when it comes to sales.
    Digital means a lot when it comes to sales. But digital isn't run through Diamond, and most companies — most notably DC — want to keep the numbers quiet to prevent one of the other publishers from directing all of their energies into dominating that market too. So long as digital remains open, and there's no chance of Marvel/Disney doing everything they can to push others out (like setting prices, etc.), then it's better for everyone.
    Now with a blog! Visit: http://bfromc.wordpress.com

  15. #15
    Elder Member Charles RB's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    35,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterman View Post

    You have no data to support your assertions about what "minority fans" do or do not do. Nor do you have any data about what "a large portion of them" do. No such data has been collected.
    Which means you don't have any data to show people aren't voting with their wallets already and need to "man up", so what's the point of using that as an argument against Mecegirl? It can be used on your own posts, and the Colour Barrier article's "vote with wallets" argument.
    "We must fight on!"
    "We'll die. We fight and we die, that's how it goes."
    "Then we die gloriously!"
    "There's an important word there, and it's not gloriously."
    - Only You Can Save Mankind

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •