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  1. #1
    Junior Member
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    Default Wouldn't Batman making a few mistakes be a good thing?

    Some fans expect Bruce to be perfect. For example, some guy was upset when Bruce Wayne forgot what day it is.

    I love Batman, but I wouldn't want him to be a bat-god. Wouldn't flaws humanize him? If he was too perfect, it would be unrealistic and boring.
    Last edited by SuperMagneto; 02-02-2014 at 12:15 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    A guy like Batman wouldn't last very long if he made that many mistakes.

  3. #3
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    A guy like Batman wouldn't last very long if he made that many mistakes.
    He didn't use to be perfect. He didn't know everything. He couldn't anticipate everything. And there was a time when he didn't automatically win every fight. It was nice.

    Part of it is the changing times. In the early 1940s, you could be a guy who knew some martial arts, and that would be enough of an advantage to wade into a roomful of thugs who knew none and just roughhouse your way to a win. But now, martial arts aren't exotic or unusual at all. So now, they have to make Batman a world champion-level master of 48 different disciplines in order to come out on top against a roomful of thugs, probably all of whom know some martial arts, with at least a few of them probably being experts. It's become kind of ridiculous, and in some ways for me, a little less interesting.

    You know what I miss? Death traps. Yeah, they are kind of dumb and nonsensical, but they were also interesting and fun. Batman would get knocked out and wake up in a death trap he'd then have to Houdini his way out of. Completely unrealistic that a villain would not use the opportunity of Batman's unconsciousness to unmask and/or simply kill him. But still... I can't help feeling like we've lost something.

    Anyway, the reason I bring up the death traps is that Batman regularly used to lose a battle, or make some miscalculation and would end up in one. It made the stories interesting, him not being perfect.
    Last edited by stk; 02-02-2014 at 01:06 AM.

  4. #4
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    I'm not sure where the myth of the "Perfect, Infallible Batgod" comes from. Sure, he had a few notorious episodes in Grant Morrison's JLA *eighteen years ago*, but we've seen Batman/Bruce all kinds of screwed up, beaten down, and mangled since.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    faze (v.): to cause to be disturbed or disconcerted; to stun

    phase (n.):
    a stage in a process of change or development

    Get it right, people.

  5. #5
    Junior Member dmreyn's Avatar
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    He's still not perfect, but I agree that he doesn't seem to make as many mistakes as his earlier comics. Scott Snyder's been showing some of his mistakes in Zero Year. The issue where the Red Hood Gang kicked his ass and lit the building on fire is one example. Second example is Dr. Death - the only reason Batman survived that fight is because Gordon miraculously came in last second to save the day, one second later and he would be dead.

  6. #6
    Lord of Dorks Mahzian's Avatar
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    Although it is interesting to watch (read) a character like Batman who can and will come out on top of every situation, it does reduce suspense, which reduces enjoyment (for me at least). You are pretty much reduced to seeing how the character does what he does and not wonder IF he'll actually succeed. I wish he were more fallible like us other mortal men, I guess that may leave him open to long term / permanent injury or death though which is no good for DC's profitability. They could have a way out of that by shifting the man under the cowl so they could keep Batman as a marketable property but give the character playing him a chance to fail / get injured / retire / die. That would work for me, I guess they kind of tried this with Dick taking over recently but that didn't stick, Bruce has been Batman for too long, and that's who people associate with Batman, so I'm pretty sure he'll still be Batman when we are all gone.

  7. #7
    My Opinion > Your Opinion maxpower00044's Avatar
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    Yes, I like my batman to walk a fine line between BatGod and Flawed. It makes it more interesting that way. Plus, we already know he's going to win. He's the GD BATMAN. At least make it interesting.
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  8. #8
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    You didn't read Death of the Family yet, did you?
    Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Batknight's Avatar
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    I never understood what kind of Batman fan wants him to be some perfect infallible god. Sure on the outside he may appear perfect. And he is a perfectionist. But on the inside Batman is actually a horribly, tragically, flawed human being. With a ton of psychological and emotional issues. And he constantly makes mistakes because of those issues. I would say he's one of the most flawed superheroes in all of comics. And Scott Snyder's entire run so far has been all about exploring that.
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  10. #10

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    I think the biggest problem is that Bruce pushes himself so hard not to the kind of person who makes mistakes that whenever it does happen it should be kind of a big deal (to him at least.) So then you have to be careful to not give him to many because that goes from being seen as actual mistakes to Batman just not being good enough. And since it's comics a few can easily be seen as many in readers minds. But batgod is never a good thing.

  11. #11
    Super Amalgamated! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I think that's why I tend to prefer the alternate reality and Year One batman stuff to the modern batman. He's not perfect there, he hasn't figured everything out, and he does tend to mess up on occasion.
    Highly Evolved Creature Totally Orientated on Revenge.

  12. #12

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    Well, if you remember the 70s Batman was horribly incompetent here. He got knocked out by ordinary thugs, was sucker-punched with ease, no gadgets, acted very foolish and wasn't even that great of a detective. Bronze Age Batman is by far the weakest incarnation of Batman (at the end of that time it got better).

    One of the good things of Miller was to turn him into some sort of deadly fighting machine who knew, I dunno, 47 ways to kill a man from every position And 15 to cripple him. And 4 that just hurt like hell I prefer that to the "brawler" Batman that was characteristically for the pre-crisis era (only Denny O'Neil seemed to have linked Batman with martial arts and I think Bob Haney mentioned once that he knew karate). And still, Frank Miller's Batman lost against the mutant leader when he fought fair (but obviously he was old at that point).

    In general, Batman shouldn't be portrayed as THAT superior and some Adam West-styled brawls with some thugs are nice... but I think competent is better. Doesn't mean that he mastered 48 martial arts or something... just that he has some sort of physical perfection when it comes to strength, agility and reflexes and then he knows many martial arts and has mastered a few.

    It's difficult, I guess, because it limits the story to tell because you cannot tell an ordinary, grounded detective story with some sort of action climax. Batman would be no match for ordinary thugs... but then as soon as you place him against guys like Clayface, Bane... a weak Batman wouldn't really work.

    Otherwise, Batman should be the world's greatest detective, at least in some ways. At the same time he doesn't really have to be world's greatest engineer/chemist/demoltion expert etc.

  13. #13

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    Found it:



    Love Batman's reluctance to the whole Richard Dragon attack. B&B Batman was more of a jerk and competent compared to the one in the regular book.

  14. #14
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    A few mistakes would be one thing, but Snyder's Batman hadn't done a single thing that could be classified as smart right up until I stopped reading the title. Off the top of my head;
    He didn't believe Talon existed
    He got thrown out of his own high-rise
    He put a mayoral candidate he was backing in danger
    He didn't run a thorough background check on a mayoral candidate who's campaign he was paying for
    He walked into a trip wire
    He got taken hostage and locked in a maze (this was while I still enjoyed the book)
    He didn't know Dick had been groomed to be an assassin
    He under-estimated the Court of the Owls
    He was taken by surprise in his own home
    He lead the Army of Zombie Owl Assassins into the Bat-Cave
    He didn't know that the guy he was backing for mayor was a member of the CotO
    He didn't check the body of Lincoln to make sure he was dead
    He didn't take a sample of the dead Lincoln's blood at the crime scene so he could never be sure if he was actually Thomas Jr.
    He left a Talon alive and able to retreat
    He was bested by Owlman and only survived by sheer strength (He unrealistically pulled himself out of a Jet Engine intake)
    He made a mistake with Killer Shark and had to be saved by Harper Row
    He was nowhere to be seen while Joker slaughtered half of the police force in the Police Station
    He stood in an elevator shaft while Joker killed the other half of the police force
    He mistook a disguised Harley for a disguised Joker
    He charged down a gangway and got hit by a giant mallet that swung down from the ceiling to knock him into a giant chemical vat that he had seen at least two other people fall into in the past if not more (This was the beginning of the end for me)
    He failed to save an entire apartment complex of people that got drowned
    He failed to notice that the Joker had taken over Arkham and was torturing the guards
    He walked past a "tapestry" made out of living people that had been sewn together without even noticing it
    He let a flaming horse run off without trying to put it out
    He stood and watched as Joker killed an innocent man dressed as Superman without even lifting a finger or objecting
    He let Joker walk into his house and kidnap his best friend
    He let Joker escape over and over again
    He let Joker capture every single person that he ever worked with including his own son
    He refused to believe that Joker knew where the Bat-Cave was
    He let himself be taken hostage by the Joker
    He failed to think of an escape he simply muscled his way free (again)
    He got outsmarted by a steroid addict
    He was outmatched by dogs
    He had to be saved by Harper Row (again) with an ultrasonic device that anyone that studied bats or called themselves a "Bat" should have had
    He rewarded the teenaged girl for saving his life by punching her in the face so hard that she flew through a wooden fence and he broke her nose
    He didn't apologize and even made excuses for that abuse

    That was all in the first 18 issues when he was 6 years into his crime-fighting lifestyle, and before the jump back to "Zero-Year" when he was inexperienced. Also, that isn't even getting into the other writers that had him punch his trusted associates, ignore intelligent advice, let his son be killed, or berate their attempts to deal with problems he created.

    If there is one thing we know about "New" 52 Batman it's that he's not perfect. Heck, he's not even that smart and he's definitely not very good at his job.
    Last edited by Conway; 02-02-2014 at 01:59 PM.

  15. #15
    Optic Blast, Optic Blast B. Kuwanger's Avatar
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    Wow that is definitely a list of things.

    It's weird to me that so many people came out of Morrison's run thinking Batman was somehow perfect. He did a lot worse than forget what day it was. That's a strange example of a bat-god fan, btw.
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