View Poll Results: How do you feel about Diana having Zeus for her dad?

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  • Heresy! All of it! Diana should never have a father of any sort!

    23 28.05%
  • Dislike the concept, dislike the execution of idea, but like the choice of dad

    0 0%
  • Dislike the concept, dislike the choice of dad, but like the execution of idea

    2 2.44%
  • Dislike the concept, but like the execution of idea, like the choice of dad

    4 4.88%
  • Weirdly makes no difference to me as a WW fan at all

    8 9.76%
  • Like the concept, but dislike the execution of idea, dislike choice of dad

    4 4.88%
  • Like the concept, like the execution of idea, but dislike the choice of dad

    3 3.66%
  • Like the concept, like the choice of dad, dislike the execution of idea

    9 10.98%
  • Genius! All of it! Diana needed to have this sort of father all along!

    29 35.37%
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  1. #136
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    You really see that happening? I suspect they'll only be temporarily revived as zombies.

    Elsewhere in the DCU, the goddess of war is portrayed as a clueless loose cannon. We also know that she's headed for an ugly breakup with Superman, and they're not going to make Superman the bad guy there. We also know she'll be acting under the orders of Lex Luthor.

    I'm fairly sure that Wonder Woman emerges from all of this as a major villain in the DC universe. Azzarello's slo-mo torture of the character strikes me as consistent with this as well.
    Still on that Lady Death theory then?
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  2. #137
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Still on that Lady Death theory then?
    DC's proven that it's willing to throw Wonder Woman under the bus for shock value. I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  3. #138
    Senior Member Vanguard01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Yeah--that's because we don't see Diana's face between the back-to-back panels in which her humble servant says "My name is Persephone" and "I was Hades' wife." So there's absolutely no evidence that Diana fails to recognize Persephone's name. I read Diana's look of shock, which immediately follows Persephone's statement, as a reaction to the statement taken as a whole. She's shocked that Persephone, once the wife of Hades, has been reduced to this wretched state.
    If she DID recognize the name, she was awfully blasť about it. She was shocked to find that Hades has had other wives and this one has been booted down to being Diana's personal slave girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Some may call this "plot convenient," but I call it what a writer is supposed to do: arrange events to tell the story he or she wants to tell and reveal what he or she wants to reveal about the characters.
    Once again, that speaks very poorly of Demeter. Persephone suffers as Hades' prisoner. Either she doesn't GET her half a year with her mom in this version, or her half a year with Hades was bad enough that she killed herself to try to escape it. Either way you slice it, Hades tortured her daughter to commit suicide........and she didn't give a crap. She didn't react at all, didn't lift a finger.

    I call this writing the characters to fit the story, rather than writing the story to fit the characters. This is also where you see stories wherein Diana can be an army-wrecking badass in one issue, and going down like a sack of crap to a single attack that doesn't look anywhere NEAR as bad as the damage we've seen her shrug off a dozen times before in the next.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    That wouldn't make sense. The mortal shades are free of their former identities
    Or, it's just as easy to say that "Persephone" was given back her sense of self so she could actually be worth a damn to Diana as a slave. The fact that Persephone had an identity is hardly conclusive. Hades can make the dead whatever he wants them to be in his realm. So, fine. He selected one of his previous mortal brides, waved his hand, and restored her identity so she could better serve his new queen. This combined with Diana's lack of recognition of Persephone supports my theory that Persephone was of no importance.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Her personality and fundamental nature doesn't seem to be that of someone who could ever have destroyed the world.
    Which lends further credence to my "Persephone is mortal" theory. Yeah, THIS Demeter doesn't seem like someone who could have destroyed the world......because she never had a daughter to rage about losing.

    Or, Persephone IS her daughter. In which case, Demeter's personality and fundamental nature in Azz's run is that of a mother who CAN sit back and watch her daughter suffer to the point of committing suicide without lifting a finger to help her OR to avenge her death.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Notice her downcast looks, and her wistful word about Ares. And she doesn't say she didn't mind that Ares ripped Zeke out of her body; she says she couldn't stop him. It would have been against her nature, whether she likes that or not.
    Downcast looks and wistful words. Hardly conclusive of sadness. Boredom works just as well.

    So, Azz thinks that Demter is a totally passive being who can have the thing she loves most in the world ripped from her and can't even defend her or seek retribution for her loss? Okay. So, once again: this is a Demeter who lost her daughter and didn't care enough to do ANYTHING about it. Despite the myths that say otherwise. The myths firmly establish that Hera can't forgive Zeus's paramours. The myths also say that Demeter is perfectly capable of seeking restitution for her daughter. You can't have it both ways.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I'm not sure where you get "didn't give a crap." Do you really not see any space between "doesn't give a crap" and "gives a crap but can't bring herself to destroy the whole world because of her and her daughter's tragedy"?
    And yet the myths say that she DID threaten the world to get her daughter back. And that it wasn't accepting that she couldn't destroy the world that stayed her hand. It was an arrangement whereby her daughter was returned to her for half the year. If she made that deal and THEN found out that Persephone had already killed herself? Then there basically wouldn't be any reason for her to spare the world at all. She certainly wouldn't have just shrugged and said "Oh, well! There goes my daughter. Too bad. Yeah, I could seek other ways to make Hades pay for destroying my daughter, but nah! It's naptime."

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Yeah, that's a great story, and yeah, we did hear it as children. But no, I don't need to have Azzarello tell it again, and I don't need to have him assume it as part of his continuity.
    It's a vastly better story than "And Persephone died for no reason and will be tormented forever now." Thus? No one is ever going to sell me on the idea that Azz's re-telling of the story is better, or even as good, as the story I liked.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Nope. I think you're forgetting that this is a Wonder Woman story. What we get is "And so, while Persephone damned herself to servitude by trying to escape, Hades was once again in need of a Queen. And then, many ages later, he met Wonder Woman...."
    The story is still "Persephone got kidnapped and killed herself." *Yawn* And Diana can't free people from Hades because no one leaves his realm. Ever.

    If Demeter wasn't "inspired" to help her daughter, or to wreak retribution down on the bastard who destroyed her when it actually happened? Then I don't see Diana getting through to her and getting her to get off her apathetic ass and do something NOW, centuries later. And if you're right and it's against Demeter's nature to give a crap about her daughter, then there's no getting past that in the first place.

    If Azz isn't going to have Diana free Persephone from Hades, then past history suggests that the odds of a future writer doing anything like that are highly unlikely.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Yes. See? That's the twist.
    That's not a "twist." That is a fundamental altering of a basic element of the character. Hades turns HIMSELF invisible. Being unwilling to look the world in the eye doesn't explain how he stole the Titan's weapons right out from under their noses without them noticing.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Syncretism is OK by me.
    Ask the few million Voodoo worshippers active in the world today how cool they are with giving the look of one of their gods to another god who has nothing to do with them.

    There's no good reason why Hades would steal the look (not "adopt elements of it", not "draw inspiration from it"; "completely steal it whole cloth") of a foreign god who has nothing to do with him.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    If we know who he is, we can look at him and know that he's an ancient, terrible being, whose appearance only makes a mockery of the innocence of childhood.
    Hades IS ancient and terrible. So he should actually LOOK ancient and terrible. Not like a little boy in the world's worst Halloween costume.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I think it suits the personification of the underworld to have have something uncanny and unsettling and even downright weird about his appearance.
    So let him look weird. Let him look terrifying.

    Me? If I can pick you up and punt you like a football? I'm not scared of you. I just see a little punk trying to act big and bad. And I damn sure don't see a terrifying god that people were terrified to even name aloud.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    But part of what I think is supposed to be unsettling about him is that he's seemingly a child and he's no more mature than a child, yet he has these adult desires and tremendous powers.
    And he would somehow be LESS unsettling if he was a dark lord of the Underworld who wants to rape you?

    Then once again, the fact that he's a child doesn't change anything. Thus? The deviation from a more believable portrayal of him didn't enhance the story in any way. Thus? Change for change's sake.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    On the earth, who's to say he can't douse or cover his flame and make himself invisible at will?
    Because he DID show up in our world and still had his head on fire?


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Or you could just keep the mythology books and enjoy them and the comic as two separate, though related, things.

    So there have always been different versions. Azz's is just another.
    By your own argument Hades doesn't "know" much at all. He's an eternal man-child just lashing out and taking things that aren't his. So, yeah, "Knowing?" Doesn't really describe THIS Hades at all.

    And THIS different version of this myth is grossly inferior to the previous editions. In the original, it was the story of a mother who loved her daughter enough to go to any lengths to save her. Her love was rewarded and she got to keep her daughter at least partially. Yeah, Persephone maybe didn't LOVE her fate, but she was able to accept it and her time spent with her mother was able to heal whatever cruelties Hades had inflicted upon her.

    This version? Demeter is now a flaky deadbeat who didn't care about her daughter. Persephone is either an unimportant mortal or a victim of an even crueler fate than ever before. Hades is an idiot child who can't live up to his name. Nope!. I don't think I will keep the two concepts separate and "enjoy them." Because one concept I do enjoy, and another one I don't.
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
    -- Alfred Lord Tennyson --

  4. #139
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    DC's proven that it's willing to throw Wonder Woman under the bus for shock value. I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
    yeah,but with the movie I don't expect DC to mess up Diana this way.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01
    If she DID recognize the name, she was awfully blasť about it. She was shocked to find that Hades has had other wives and this one has been booted down to being Diana's personal slave girl.
    Here are the panels. Where do you see this blasť reaction or lack of reaction?

    Capture.JPG

    Once again, that speaks very poorly of Demeter. Persephone suffers as Hades' prisoner. Either she doesn't GET her half a year with her mom in this version, or her half a year with Hades was bad enough that she killed herself to try to escape it. Either way you slice it, Hades tortured her daughter to commit suicide........and she didn't give a crap. She didn't react at all, didn't lift a finger.
    How do you know that? What I read gives us no idea what she might or might not have tried to do about Persephone's abduction in the thousands of year since it happened. That is a story that hasn't been told. She might have done nothing; or she might have caused massive starvation and almost destroyed the earth, before finding that she could not. But even if it does speak poorly of her--so what? Azz isn't presenting Demeter as anyone's role model, but as someone whose passivity reflects the indifference of the natural forces that influence whether a harvest is good or bad.

    I call this writing the characters to fit the story, rather than writing the story to fit the characters.
    Persephone is (so far) a very minor supporting character. Of course the story wasn't written to fit her. But it did produce a fairly original, tragic, poignant view of her, as someone who imprisoned herself by trying to escape. I found it very interesting that her role paralleled that of Conquest's wife in Marson's Wonder Woman 2--Wonder Woman's first visit to an afterlife.

    Or, it's just as easy to say that "Persephone" was given back her sense of self so she could actually be worth a damn to Diana as a slave.
    Well, that's creative, but honestly, it doesn't make sense to me. Hades could have had one of the shades become an automation, without emotion or personal memories, answering to the name "Servant," but perfectly capable of doing a servant's job. Besides, Hermes made clear in #8 that Hades doesn't take the shades' sense of self; they escape from it, by the very nature of their mortality. Hermes established in 8 how the gods' "eternity" is different from mortals' afterlives--and what Persephone has fits Hermes description of "eternity," right down to her use of that word. The callback seems intention. Of course, nothing is "conclusive" in comics; Azz or someone else could contradict it later. But so far, everything on the pages suggests that Persephone is a goddess who killed herself.

    Downcast looks and wistful words. Hardly conclusive of sadness. Boredom works just as well
    .
    It's open to interpretation, I suppose. But to me she doesn't sound just "bored" when she speaks of Ares' decline. Those, it seems to me, are words of regret.

    So, Azz thinks that Demter is a totally passive being who can have the thing she loves most in the world ripped from her and can't even defend her or seek retribution for her loss? Okay. So, once again: this is a Demeter who lost her daughter and didn't care enough to do ANYTHING about it. Despite the myths that say otherwise. The myths firmly establish that Hera can't forgive Zeus's paramours. The myths also say that Demeter is perfectly capable of seeking restitution for her daughter. You can't have it both ways.
    By "have it both ways," do you mean "leave some things as they were in the myths, and change other things"? Of course a writer can do that; why not? Wonder Woman writers have always done that. Besides, once again, there's zero evidence of what Demeter did or did not do to try to free Persephone; all we know if that if she tried, she wasn't successful.

    It's a vastly better story than "And Persephone died for no reason and will be tormented forever now." Thus? No one is ever going to sell me on the idea that Azz's re-telling of the story is better, or even as good, as the story I liked.
    Possibly that's because Azz's retelling does not (yet) exist. Azz has not retold the story of Persephone's abduction or of how Demeter did or did not respond. At most, that's all part of the implied backstory for the story of Wonder Woman's time in Hell.

    The story is still "Persephone got kidnapped and killed herself." *Yawn* And Diana can't free people from Hades because no one leaves his realm. Ever.
    Yeah, well, sometimes in comics and fantasy fiction, the impossible happens. If some writer wants to write the story of Persephone leaving hell with Diana's help, he or she will write it,

    Ask the few million Voodoo worshippers active in the world today how cool they are with giving the look of one of their gods to another god who has nothing to do with them.
    I would, if I knew any of them. From what I understand, the various forms of Vodoun are syncrectic religions, so I don't necessarily assume many of it's practitioners would be offended by someone else's fiction-writing equivalent of syncretism. Maybe they would, and maybe they'd have a point; I don't know.

    There's no good reason why Hades would steal the look (not "adopt elements of it", not "draw inspiration from it"; "completely steal it whole cloth") of a foreign god who has nothing to do with him.
    For me, this is taking it too seriously. In the fictional world of Rucka's book, that was Hades' look; in that world, he didn't steal it (as far as I know).

    Then once again, the fact that he's a child doesn't change anything. Thus? The deviation from a more believable portrayal of him didn't enhance the story in any way. Thus? Change for change's sake.
    It doesn't change the plot, and I really don't think that every character redesign has to change the plot. But it accentuates Hades' weird and scary combination of immaturity and power (a big part of how Azz is writing him). It's change for the sake of an interesting visual that complements the story. However, it doesn't work for you; I understand that. I've only tried to explain why it (except for the armor) works for me.

    Because he DID show up in our world and still had his head on fire?
    The fact that he didn't turn invisible on that occasion doesn't show that he can't turn invisible "if his life depends on it," as you claimed.

    By your own argument Hades doesn't "know" much at all. He's an eternal man-child just lashing out and taking things that aren't his. So, yeah, "Knowing?" Doesn't really describe THIS Hades at all.
    Of course this is just conjecture on my part--but there's a reason I used the word "ironic" in that sentence! Even if he does like to see himself as a source of higher illumination to the souls in his realm, that doesn't mean he really is one. Incidentally, I think "knowing" may have been ironic on Plato's part, as well; he refers to Hades as the greatest sophist, and he generally criticized the sophists for making powerful but untrue arguments. So I'm not 100% sure that he though the "knowledge" he attributed to Hades was genuine. The common element between Plato's anecdote and Azz's story--and it may be a completely accidental similarity--is that in both, the dead want to be there.
    Last edited by slvn; 02-01-2014 at 02:55 PM.

  6. #141
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    Even in mythology there are different versions of the stories. I remember a teacher saying the origin of troy war is different from what the popular tale tell.
    I think is easy to accept, at least for me, to use the myth chracters and story in a different way. Even comic books has changes when go to another media

  7. #142
    Senior Member Vanguard01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Here are the panels. Where do you see this blasť reaction or lack of reaction?
    I see Diana reacting to "I was Hades' wife!" I see NO special reaction to "My name is Persephone." I see Diana reacting to "Hades has done this to other women." Not "This is the Queen of the Underworld. How far she has fallen."

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    How do you know that? What I read gives us no idea what she might or might not have tried to do about Persephone's abduction in the thousands of year since it happened. That is a story that hasn't been told. She might have done nothing; or she might have caused massive starvation and almost destroyed the earth, before finding that she could not. But even if it does speak poorly of her--so what? Azz isn't presenting Demeter as anyone's role model, but as someone whose passivity reflects the indifference of the natural forces that influence whether a harvest is good or bad.
    Let's see, what character do I like and care about more? The passive monster who didn't give a crap when her daughter was taken from her, or the loving mother who moved Heaven and Earth to retrieve her daughter?

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Persephone is (so far) a very minor supporting character. Of course the story wasn't written to fit her. But it did produce a fairly original, tragic, poignant view of her, as someone who imprisoned herself by trying to escape. I found it very interesting that her role paralleled that of Conquest's wife in Marson's Wonder Woman 2--Wonder Woman's first visit to an afterlife.
    No, it wasn't original, tragic, or poignant. It was crap. Persephone is screwed to suffer for eternity and there's nothing Diana, her mother, or anyone else can do about it. Show me a hero walking away from a suffering person, impotent to do anything to help her, and I'm not about to label it any kind of a good story.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Well, that's creative, but honestly, it doesn't make sense to me. Hades could have had one of the shades become an automation, without emotion or personal memories, answering to the name "Servant," but perfectly capable of doing a servant's job. Besides, Hermes made clear in #8 that Hades doesn't take the shades' sense of self; they escape from it, by the very nature of their mortality. Hermes established in 8 how the gods' "eternity" is different from mortals' afterlives--and what Persephone has fits Hermes description of "eternity," right down to her use of that word. The callback seems intention. Of course, nothing is "conclusive" in comics; Azz or someone else could contradict it later. But so far, everything on the pages suggests that Persephone is a goddess who killed herself.
    Why wouldn't Hades give Diana robot shades? I dunno. Maybe because Hades is a sick bastard who would rather torture "Persephone" a little more? Maybe he wanted to torture Diana by forcing her to look into the despairing eyes of a feeling creature who is doomed for eternity to serve her? Maybe he thought he was somehow being "kind" by giving Diana a slave she could actually TALK to?

    And all ghosts are is their consciousness. That's literally ALL they are made up of. If they've lost that, then they've ceased to exist altogether. And yes, in the myths, they very much have their consciousness taken from them. When the dead arrive in Hades, the ones doomed to wander aimlessly as shades are made to drink the water of the River Lethe, which wipes away their memories and consciousness. However, there's another river in Hades that can RESTORE this lost consciousness: the River Mnemosyne. He could easily have given some of that water to "Persephone" and given her consciousness back to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    It's open to interpretation, I suppose. But to me she doesn't sound just "bored" when she speaks of Ares' decline. Those, it seems to me, are words of regret.
    Even if you're right? Then she feels sad about Ares. Nothing suggests she feels bad about what's happened to Persephone. And if Azz's statement that it's her nature to just let things be taken from her? Then that doesn't change anything. She's still a mother who watched her daughter's destruction and didn't do a damn thing about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    By "have it both ways," do you mean "leave some things as they were in the myths, and change other things"? Of course a writer can do that; why not? Wonder Woman writers have always done that. Besides, once again, there's zero evidence of what Demeter did or did not do to try to free Persephone; all we know if that if she tried, she wasn't successful.
    So, Hera can't change her nature and forgive Zeus's paramours, and Demeter can't change her nature and try to defend her daughter? Mythology backs up the Hera claim. It doesn't back up the Demeter claim. Once again, unless Azz is saying "Throw out the mythology books" then if mythology backs up Hera's unforgiving nature, then it should also back up Demeter's willingness to go to extremes to save her daughter.

    And the last time Persephone was taken from her, she threatened to destroy the world. Only relenting when the deal was made. Well, now the deal has been permanently broken. Where is her rage now? Nowhere, that's where.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Possibly that's because Azz's retelling does not (yet) exist. Azz has not retold the story of Persephone's abduction or of how Demeter did or did not respond. At most, that's all part of the implied backstory for the story of Wonder Woman's time in Hell.
    It's easy enough to draw conclusions: Persephone was taken from Demeter. Either Persephone killed herself before the deal was struck, and Demeter decided to let the matter drop instead of making Hades PAY, or the deal WAS struck and honored for a time. Then Persephone eventually killed herself while Demeter just lounged around not lifting a finger.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Yeah, well, sometimes in comics and fantasy fiction, the impossible happens. If some writer wants to write the story of Persephone leaving hell with Diana's help, he or she will write it,
    The only way Persephone leaves the Underworld is if another deal is struck. Is Diana going to spend half of every year in Hades in Persephone's stead? I'm suspecting that MIGHT cause a problem for other writers that want to use Diana in their books.

    Diana had her chance to force Hades to release Persephone. She didn't take it. Probably because she knew it couldn't happen. She walked out of the Underworld and left Persephone behind to suffer. Something tells me Azz doesn't want Persephone freed.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    For me, this is taking it too seriously. In the fictional world of Rucka's book, that was Hades' look; in that world, he didn't steal it (as far as I know).
    Comics tend to operate under a "All myths are true" kind of assumption. If Hades exists? So does Baron Samedi, though he hasn't been seen in comics, as far as I know. Bottom line is it was lazy and unoriginal to take another god's look and slap it on another god.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    The fact that he didn't turn invisible on that occasion doesn't show that he can't turn invisible "if his life depends on it," as you claimed.
    He was in the middle of a big city. If he didn't want to draw attention, then he kinda failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Of course this is just conjecture on my part--but there's a reason I used the word "ironic" in that sentence! Even if he does like to see himself as a source of higher illumination to the souls in his realm, that doesn't mean he really is one. Incidentally, I think "knowing" may have been ironic on Plato's part, as well; he refers to Hades as the greatest sophist, and he generally criticized the sophists for making powerful but untrue arguments. So I'm not 100% sure that he though the "knowledge" he attributed to Hades was genuine. The common element between Plato's anecdote and Azz's story--and it may be a completely accidental similarity--is that in both, the dead want to be there.
    Or rather, the dead have had their consciousness taken away from them and they no longer have will or desire anymore. The actual myths say that their consciousness is taken from them and can only be restored by the Mnemosyne's waters.

    So not much secret knowledge for Hades. Just access to two magic rivers.
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
    -- Alfred Lord Tennyson --

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    I see Diana reacting to "I was Hades' wife!" I see NO special reaction to "My name is Persephone." I see Diana reacting to "Hades has done this to other women." Not "This is the Queen of the Underworld. How far she has fallen."
    She says "My name is Persephone. I was Hades' wife" in two panels but essentially in the same breath, with no space and no image of Wonder Woman between the two sentences, so there is no textual basis for definitely concluding that there Wonder Woman is reacting to only half of the statement. You may choose to "see" "Hades has done this to other women," but that's not an actual quotation from the book, anymore than "this is the Queen of the Underworld...."

    No, it wasn't original, tragic, or poignant. It was crap. Persephone is screwed to suffer for eternity and there's nothing Diana, her mother, or anyone else can do about it. Show me a hero walking away from a suffering person, impotent to do anything to help her, and I'm not about to label it any kind of a good story.
    It's certainly an original take on the Persephone myth, as you have basically said yourself by pointing out its lack of precedent (though of course, "originality" by itself wouldn't be a great virtue.) And if she caused her own downfall by her efforts to free herself, that's close enough to the definition of "tragedy" for messageboard purposes, as far as I'm concerned. I understand that you didn't find it poignant, and I can't argue with you about; it's poignant to me, but that's subjective. I would agree that it's not a complete story, but it's not presented as such; it's by no means the main focus of the issue, or even something that happens "on panel"; it's just background for the story of Diana's "engagement" to Hades. It's also good setup for future stories in the same continuity, if anyone wants to tell them.

    Why wouldn't Hades give Diana robot shades? I dunno. Maybe because Hades is a sick bastard who would rather torture "Persephone" a little more? Maybe he wanted to torture Diana by forcing her to look into the despairing eyes of a feeling creature who is doomed for eternity to serve her? Maybe he thought he was somehow being "kind" by giving Diana a slave she could actually TALK to?
    All good ideas, but there's still no suggestion in the actual book that she was ever able to lose her identity in the first place. What we do hear is that Persephone's "eternity doesn't end"; she sure sounds like she's caught in trap, which closely fits Hermes' recent description of what eternity means to "immortals."

    And all ghosts are is their consciousness. That's literally ALL they are made up of. If they've lost that, then they've ceased to exist altogether
    Consciousness doesnt necessarily entail a fixed, stable sense of identity. But yes, technically they have ceased to exist as individuals, according to Hermes: "You're young. I think the concept of eternity is something you don't grasp yet. Diana, being immortal is both a blessing, and a trap. A trap that mortals don't share. Imagine dying, and gaining the ability to be anything. Anything for just a piece of time, knowing that your time to reinvent is your forever. Not existing in a world, but BEING the world...." This is true of the mortal shades, but not of Persephone, who says she's "damened" and caught in a never-ending eternity and not allowed to forget.


    Even if you're right? Then she feels sad about Ares. Nothing suggests she feels bad about what's happened to Persephone. And if Azz's statement that it's her nature to just let things be taken from her? Then that doesn't change anything. She's still a mother who watched her daughter's destruction and didn't do a damn thing about it.
    It appears to me that she's melancholy about not being able to do anything for Ares or anyone else. Her monologue is about the fact that she "happens" because of other peoples' actions, whether they're good or bad, and she can't stop those actions; in the presumed context of her having been unable to save her daughter, it becomes more poignant. And again, I have to ask you; where are you seeing anything to indicate that in the thousands of years that Persephone has been imprisoned Demeter didn't "do a damned thing about it?" In the actual book, that story hasn't been told, one way or another. All we can conclude is that if she tried, she failed.

    So, Hera can't change her nature and forgive Zeus's paramours, and Demeter can't change her nature and try to defend her daughter? Mythology backs up the Hera claim. It doesn't back up the Demeter claim. Once again, unless Azz is saying "Throw out the mythology books" then if mythology backs up Hera's unforgiving nature, then it should also back up Demeter's willingness to go to extremes to save her daughter.
    Like every other Wonder Woman writer and just about every modern writer who uses mythology, he's using the parts of mythology that suit him and ignoring others. That's not what I would call "throw out the mythology books!," but take it as you will.

    It's easy enough to draw conclusions: Persephone was taken from Demeter. Either Persephone killed herself before the deal was struck, and Demeter decided to let the matter drop instead of making Hades PAY, or the deal WAS struck and honored for a time. Then Persephone eventually killed herself while Demeter just lounged around not lifting a finger.
    There's no basis in the book to conclude whether or not she "lifted a finger." She could have waged war against Hades for hundreds of years, almost destroying the earth, before she couldn't fight anymore, whether because Zeus stopped her or because her nature wouldn't ultimately let her destroy the world, or for whatever combination of reasons.

    The only way Persephone leaves the Underworld is if another deal is struck. Is Diana going to spend half of every year in Hades in Persephone's stead? I'm suspecting that MIGHT cause a problem for other writers that want to use Diana in their books.
    I'm not sure the writers, if they think about this at all (as a hope a writer eventually will), will think about it in such an either/or way. Given creative freedom, tehre are many ways this could be recolved. Perhaps Hades love shot in issue 10 has only begun to help Hades evolve, and he will eventually release Peresphone of his own accord, perhaps after falling in love with someone else who takes a dim view of his keeping his ex-wife around. (My vote would be for Siracca.) Perhaps Hades will need help defenidn his realm from Lucifer or someone, and that will be the basis for the deal, Hades could be killed in the final battle with the First Born. Who knows?

    Something tells me Azz doesn't want Persephone freed.
    I really don't know whether Azz will get around to it or not. I'm not banking on it, but I wouldn't be all that surprised.

    He was in the middle of a big city. If he didn't want to draw attention, then he kinda failed.
    They were in what looked like a lonely corner of the city, next to an opening to the sewer system or something like that. There was no crowd around (unlike the earlier scene with Poseidon at the bridge). And tehre was no particular reason for Hades to avoid attention; it's not like he was trying to steal the Titans' weapons at the moment.
    Last edited by slvn; 02-01-2014 at 09:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    I see Diana reacting to "I was Hades' wife!" I see NO special reaction to "My name is Persephone." I see Diana reacting to "Hades has done this to other women." Not "This is the Queen of the Underworld. How far she has fallen."
    This is all wildly open to various interpretations as the book doesn't really get into any of this.

    The way I see it, it's simply not possible for Diana not to know who Persephone is and what her story is, but it is also not very likely that they have ever met before and would therefore not recognise her on sight.

    It also seems clear to me that Azz's version of Greek mythology is mostly faithful to the original stories, but since then a few thousand years have passed and some other things not in the myths have happened since then. And some gods, like Demeter, don't feel as strongly about this particular issue close to 3000 years later as they did back when it just had happened.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    She says "My name is Persephone. I was Hades' wife" in two panels but essentially in the same breath, with no space and no image of Wonder Woman between the two sentences, so there is no textual basis for definitely concluding that there Wonder Woman is reacting to only half of the statement. You may choose to "see" "Hades has done this to other women," but that's not an actual quotation from the book, anymore than "this is the Queen of the Underworld...."
    If Diana recognized the name and understood the significance of it, you'd think she'd make a bigger deal about "I've got the former Queen of the Underworld and another famous example of a woman victimized by a man fetching my slippers for me." She didn't mention Persephone again. You'd think, at the very least, she would've confronted Hades about it during one of their scenes together. But nope. She was apparently so unaffected by Persephone and her plight that she didn't feel the need to mention anything about it again. The second Persephone was out of sight, she was also out of mind. Not exactly the reaction you'd expect from Diana under MOST circumstances. To say nothing of when it's happening to a significant figure in her religious upbringing.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    And if she caused her own downfall by her efforts to free herself, that's close enough to the definition of "tragedy" for messageboard purposes, as far as I'm concerned...it's just background for the story of Diana's "engagement" to Hades. It's also good setup for future stories in the same continuity, if anyone wants to tell them.
    Yeah, exactly. The heroine of another story tries to do the one and only thing she has left to her to defy her tormentor........and ends up screwing herself over worse than ever. Tragic, sure. And since I'm sick to death with DC and Marvel's obsession with letting the villains triumph again and again, no power on this Earth convinces me that this story was worth a damn. Especially not when one of the greatest heroes in DC history thinks so little of Persephone's plight that she just walks away and leaves her to suffer without so much as an "I'm sorry." Or a vow to see Persephone freed some day.

    Nope! Persephone's screwed. Even Wonder Woman can't save her or even comfort her in any way. Hades wins. And it's all because a rape victim tried to escape from her tormentor. Classic modern villain glorification.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    All good ideas, but there's still no suggestion in the actual book that she was ever able to lose her identity in the first place. What we do hear is that Persephone's "eternity doesn't end"; she sure sounds like she's caught in trap, which closely fits Hermes' recent description of what eternity means to "immortals."
    There's no suggestion that she hadn't lost her identity either. "Eternity doesn't end" means the same thing for mortal shades as well. They're also eternal. They're just generally stripped of their consciousness, although Hades can restore it to them should he feel inclined to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Consciousness doesnt necessarily entail a fixed, stable sense of identity. But yes, technically they have ceased to exist as individuals, according to Hermes: "You're young. I think the concept of eternity is something you don't grasp yet. Diana, being immortal is both a blessing, and a trap. A trap that mortals don't share. Imagine dying, and gaining the ability to be anything. Anything for just a piece of time, knowing that your time to reinvent is your forever. Not existing in a world, but BEING the world...." This is true of the mortal shades, but not of Persephone, who says she's "damened" and caught in a never-ending eternity and not allowed to forget.
    Persephone says she's "damned" because she actually has the consciousness to be able to talk to Diana. If Hades restored ANOTHER mortal shade's consciousness with the waters of the Mnemosyne, that person would probably say the same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    It appears to me that she's melancholy about not being able to do anything for Ares or anyone else. Her monologue is about the fact that she "happens" because of other peoples' actions, whether they're good or bad, and she can't stop those actions; in the presumed context of her having been unable to save her daughter, it becomes more poignant. And again, I have to ask you; where are you seeing anything to indicate that in the thousands of years that Persephone has been imprisoned Demeter didn't "do a damned thing about it?" In the actual book, that story hasn't been told, one way or another. All we can conclude is that if she tried, she failed.
    If we're going strictly by the books, here? Sure there's evidence that THIS mockery of Demeter didn't do a damned thing. As you say, according to Azz, Demeter is a completely passive being who literally CAN'T stand up for herself or anyone else. Take that to it's logical conclusion, and it seems quite likely that Demeter just sat on her ass and did nothing as Persephone was dragged kicking and screaming into an eternity of rape and torture.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    There's no basis in the book to conclude whether or not she "lifted a finger." She could have waged war against Hades for hundreds of years, almost destroying the earth, before she couldn't fight anymore, whether because Zeus stopped her or because her nature wouldn't ultimately let her destroy the world, or for whatever combination of reasons.
    See above. According to your own argument, Demeter is INCAPABLE of waging war against Hades.

    In the original, and far superior, story, Zeus stopped Demeter from destroying the world alright.....by brokering the whole "half the year" deal. If Demeter CAN'T threaten to destroy the world, in Azz's universe? Then neither Zeus nor anyone else had to lift a finger to stop Demeter, because Demeter couldn't lift a finger herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I really don't know whether Azz will get around to it or not. I'm not banking on it, but I wouldn't be all that surprised.
    Well I, for one, have learned to NEVER bank on DC or Marvel seeking to undo a villain's victory these days, so I'd really doubt it.
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
    -- Alfred Lord Tennyson --

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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    The way I see it, it's simply not possible for Diana not to know who Persephone is and what her story is, but it is also not very likely that they have ever met before and would therefore not recognise her on sight.
    Didn't say I expected Diana to recognize her on sight. I said that once she realized who Persephone was, if Persephone was indeed still a goddess and a name Diana should know, then Diana should have been much more strongly affected by the knowledge that the former Queen of the Underworld is now being forced to be Diana's personal lickspittle and toady.

    You'd think she would vow to free Persephone somehow. You'd think she'd express her outrage to Hades about his mistreatment of his former queen. And if Diana knows Persephone, and the circumstances under which she BECAME Hades' queen, she'd be especially angry toward him for kidnapping Persephone, raping and torturing her, and then discarding her when she was no longer entertaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    It also seems clear to me that Azz's version of Greek mythology is mostly faithful to the original stories, but since then a few thousand years have passed and some other things not in the myths have happened since then. And some gods, like Demeter, don't feel as strongly about this particular issue close to 3000 years later as they did back when it just had happened.
    "Faithful to the original stories?" I've been quoting mythology for pages now. These stories don't even come CLOSE to the original stories.

    In the myths, Demeter "felt strongly" enough about the crime committed against her daughter that she was willing to commit genocide in order to have her back. But, as slvn has pointed out, Azz believes that Demeter is a Cosmic Doormat who exists for no other purpose than to be a powerless victim, so of COURSE she doesn't seem to care anymore that her daughter is still suffering endless torment.

    That's about as unfaithful to the original stories as you can get.
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
    -- Alfred Lord Tennyson --

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    Didn't say I expected Diana to recognize her on sight. I said that once she realized who Persephone was, if Persephone was indeed still a goddess and a name Diana should know, then Diana should have been much more strongly affected by the knowledge that the former Queen of the Underworld is now being forced to be Diana's personal lickspittle and toady.

    You'd think she would vow to free Persephone somehow. You'd think she'd express her outrage to Hades about his mistreatment of his former queen. And if Diana knows Persephone, and the circumstances under which she BECAME Hades' queen, she'd be especially angry toward him for kidnapping Persephone, raping and torturing her, and then discarding her when she was no longer entertaining.
    Why does Hades merit special anger from Diana when pretty much every single last Olympian has done the same or worse?



    "Faithful to the original stories?" I've been quoting mythology for pages now. These stories don't even come CLOSE to the original stories.

    In the myths, Demeter "felt strongly" enough about the crime committed against her daughter that she was willing to commit genocide in order to have her back. But, as slvn has pointed out, Azz believes that Demeter is a Cosmic Doormat who exists for no other purpose than to be a powerless victim, so of COURSE she doesn't seem to care anymore that her daughter is still suffering endless torment.
    That was 3000 years ago.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01
    If Diana recognized the name and understood the significance of it, you'd think she'd make a bigger deal about "I've got the former Queen of the Underworld and another famous example of a woman victimized by a man fetching my slippers for me."
    I might, if we actually saw that she didn't make a big deal out of it. We see one panel of a shocked reaction, and then the scene is over. We don't hear whatever else she said to Persephone (and I'm OK with that, because how impressed Diana might have been in the presence of another one of her divine siblings probably wasn't very important to the story). And given that Diana's scenes with Hades consisted of pretending to love him, almost getting lynched by him, and trying to escape from him, i'm not too surprised that they don't discuss Persephone. At the end of 10, Diana does what she can to help Hades grow in the direction of love, and that was probably the best thing she could do for Persephone at the time. I'd love to see some good results for that, and I'd love to see Diana do more for Persephone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    Nope! Persephone's screwed. Even Wonder Woman can't save her or even comfort her in any way. Hades wins. And it's all because a rape victim tried to escape from her tormentor. Classic modern villain glorification.
    Glorification? I'm not seeing that here. His somewhat ridiculous appearance helps avoid that; the little patriarch is shown to be pathetic as well as horrible, and certainly not at all glorious. True, Persephone certainly lost (not in this story, but thousands of ago, in the background of this story), but what has Hades really won? Having Persephone around does him little good that I can see, and if he gains anything from his interactions from Diana, it will be from her attempt to spark some healthy self-love in him as well. And that was probably the best thing she could do for Persephone, for now. But yes, absolutely, the book shows the injustice of a patriarchy in which a woman's independence, though not a tragic flaw or any kind of flaw from our perspective, leads to tragedy because patriarchy defines it as a tragic flaw. In a funny way, it reminds me of the classical tragedy Antigone, where a woman's defiance of the law has a tragic outcome not because there's anything really wrong or hubristic about her actions (at least from a modern reader's perspective), but because the rules of a patriarchal culture are set against her. And just like the one who is actually guilty of tragically overreaching in Antigone is the dictator Creon, this is also true of Hades in this story.)

    Unlike a tragedy, though, Wonder Woman's Hades arc has the actual heroine of the story (Diana, not Persephone!) escape from that patriarchal and, through the power of love, hopefully plant a seed of change at the end of issue 10. If you try to read that arc as Persphone's story, then certainly you;ll be disappointed, because she's only a minor supporting character. It's not her story, but she represents the hell (small h as well as capital H) from which Diana saved Zola and herself, and which she also tried to change by helping its lord change, at the end of 10. The fact that she didn't directly save a goddess who had been dead for thousands of years seems like a pretty minor quibble; that's not what the arc was about. Similarly, in Marston's Wonder Woman 2, Conquest's wife is left in Hell (though in that case it's because she hasn't freed herself from submissiveness to the wrong master, and has fallen for Conquest's seduction routine again. I'm not sure it's really better that Wonder Woman describes the continued imprisonment of Conquest's wife as her fault. I get what Marston was going for--showing that women should leave oppressive relationships and not enable their oppressors--but I'm still glad that the present-day Wonder Woman doesn't blame the victim.)

    There's no suggestion that she hadn't lost her identity either.
    Unlike the mortal shades, she has a face, a name, memories and emotions. She speaks of having damned herself by trying to escape, and of having spent an eternity in Hades' service. She says Hades woundn't let her forget. And Azzarello makes he her words about "eternity" in 9 parallel Hermes' talk in 8 about "eternity" and about immortality as a trap. You can infer the author's intent when you see that kind of parallel, which just doesn't look accidental; I'm pretty sure we're supposed to notice that Persephone's "fate" is an example of the kind of trap Hermes mentions. So I think there's plenty of indication that she has remained "trapped" in her identity. On the other hand, of course, even if I'm right about the evidence of the authors' intentions, there's nothing to stop you from reading it differently if you choose.

    "Eternity doesn't end" means the same thing for mortal shades as well
    Not according to Hermes in 8. He says, pretty explicitly, that the meaning of eternity is different for immortals. "Immortality is a blessing and a trap," as the immortal remains eternally himself or herself; to be the shade of a mortal, on the other hand, is to have ceased to exist as an individual, and "not to exist in the world but to be the world." Hermes actually sounds fairly envious of mortality.

    Persephone says she's "damned" because she actually has the consciousness to be able to talk to Diana. If Hades restored ANOTHER mortal shade's consciousness with the waters of the Mnemosyne, that person would probably say the same thing.
    In the book? So far, nothing is said of the waters of the Mnemosyne or of Hades' ability to restore anyone's consciousness. There's only Hermes saying that mortals shades are not damned to be anything unwillingly, and that they have the privilege of losing themselves in death, while immortals and blessed and trapped to be who they are eternally.

    If we're going strictly by the books, here? Sure there's evidence that THIS mockery of Demeter didn't do a damned thing. As you say, according to Azz, Demeter is a completely passive being who literally CAN'T stand up for herself or anyone else. Take that to it's logical conclusion, and it seems quite likely that Demeter just sat on her ass and did nothing as Persephone was dragged kicking and screaming into an eternity of rape and torture.
    That would be the extreme conclusion of this line of thinking, but I'm not sure it's the logical conclusion. I try not to think in such black-and-while way of thinking. For me, that she says today that she can't do anything doesn't mean she didn't try to do something thousands of years ago when she had a stronger reason. If she failed then, she may have given up trying and simply become resigned to her passive nature; that's part of why I find Demeter's monologue in 18 more poinent when read with the abduction of Persephone in mind.
    Last edited by slvn; 02-02-2014 at 08:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Why does Hades merit special anger from Diana when pretty much every single last Olympian has done the same or worse?
    Because Diana is LOOKING INTO THE EYES of one of Hades' victims, rather than simply hearing a recitation of something one of the other Olympians did in Amazon School?

    I can read about the Holocaust all day, and I can understand intellectually that it was a horrible thing........but that's NOTHING compared to what the soldiers who liberated the concentration camps experienced first hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    That was 3000 years ago.
    Yes, it was 3000 years ago. And in Azz's retelling of this myth, it didn't even go the same way. Instead of fighting for her daughter, Demeter just did nothing.

    I'm not saying that Demeter should STILL be waging war against Hades for something that happened 3000 years ago. I'm saying it was bad to portray Demeter as an uncaring figure who basically LET her daughter be tortured to death.
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I might, if we actually saw that she didn't make a big deal out of it. We see one panel of a shocked reaction, and then the scene is over. We don't hear whatever else she said to Persephone (and I'm OK with that, because how impressed Diana might have been in the presence of another one of her divine siblings probably wasn't very important to the story). And given that Diana's scenes with Hades consisted of pretending to love him, almost getting lynched by him, and trying to escape from him, i'm not too surprised that they don't discuss Persephone. At the end of 10, Diana does what she can to help Hades grow in the direction of love, and that was probably the best thing she could do for Persephone at the time. I'd love to see some good results for that, and I'd love to see Diana do more for Persephone.
    I would argue that NO opportunity to have Diana show her compassion to another person is unimportant to ANY story about Diana.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Glorification? I'm not seeing that here. His somewhat ridiculous appearance helps avoid that; the little patriarch is shown to be pathetic as well as horrible, and certainly not at all glorious. True, Persephone certainly lost (not in this story, but thousands of ago, in the background of this story), but what has Hades really won?
    Glorification, in the sense of "the bad guys win and the hero loses." Persephone tried to defy him. In so doing, she only made her situation worse. Even her defiance only ultimately served him. Now, this is even further compounded that a great hero became part of this story as well, and also wasn't able to do anything to fix this situation. Anyway you slice it? Hades comes out of this entire situation victorious over Persephone and Diana both.

    What has Hades really won? He got to keep his favorite plaything. Persephone tried to free herself from him? She failed and now he owns her forever. Wonder Woman was in his domain and had a chance to do something as well? She didn't. Hades wins. Hades always wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Unlike a tragedy, though, Wonder Woman's Hades arc has the actual heroine of the story (Diana, not Persephone!) escape from that patriarchal and, through the power of love, hopefully plant a seed of change at the end of issue 10. If you try to read that arc as Persphone's story, then certainly you;ll be disappointed, because she's only a minor supporting character. It's not her story, but she represents the hell (small h as well as capital H) from which Diana saved Zola and herself, and which she also tried to change by helping its lord change, at the end of 10. The fact that she didn't directly save a goddess who had been dead for thousands of years seems like a pretty minor quibble; that's not what the arc was about.
    You don't have to read it as Persephone's story. It's Diana's story. A woman who is all about freeing and empowering women, and she just left another woman to suffer because she was powerless to do anything about it. Diana not saving Persephone is hardly a minor quibble. A hero seeing a person suffering and doing nothing about it isn't exactly an enjoyable story.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Unlike the mortal shades, she has a face, a name, memories and emotions. She speaks of having damned herself by trying to escape, and of having spent an eternity in Hades' service. She says Hades woundn't let her forget. And Azzarello makes he her words about "eternity" in 9 parallel Hermes' talk in 8 about "eternity" and about immortality as a trap. You can infer the author's intent when you see that kind of parallel, which just doesn't look accidental; I'm pretty sure we're supposed to notice that Persephone's "fate" is an example of the kind of trap Hermes mentions. So I think there's plenty of indication that she has remained "trapped" in her identity. On the other hand, of course, even if I'm right about the evidence of the authors' intentions, there's nothing to stop you from reading it differently if you choose.
    She may very well have a face, a name, memories, and emotions because those were RESTORED to her. Sorry, I don't see the significance of the word "eternity." If it were spoken with a capital "E" then maybe it was meant to be significant. But other than that? "Eternity" just means "forever." So, another person suffering eternally mentioned "eternity" after Hermes talked about "eternity" with regard to gods? Not that conclusive. I read Persephone saying she's suffering for "eternity?" I just read "I'll never be free of this torment." Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Not according to Hermes in 8. He says, pretty explicitly, that the meaning of eternity is different for immortals. "Immortality is a blessing and a trap," as the immortal remains eternally himself or herself; to be the shade of a mortal, on the other hand, is to have ceased to exist as an individual, and "not to exist in the world but to be the world." Hermes actually sounds fairly envious of mortality.
    He's referring to eternity doesn't end for gods because they, by default, retain their consciousness. Mortal shades last "for eternity" as well. But it's not the same for them because most shades lose their consciousness and never regain it. Thus, they are never aware of how long "eternity" is. Give them back their consciousness so they can be aware of the passage of time? Suddenly "eternity" means the same thing for them as it does for gods.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    In the book? So far, nothing is said of the waters of the Mnemosyne or of Hades' ability to restore anyone's consciousness. There's only Hermes saying that mortals shades are not damned to be anything unwillingly, and that they have the privilege of losing themselves in death, while immortals and blessed and trapped to be who they are eternally.
    In Greek myth, the dead drink the waters of the Lethe river. THEN they become the mindless shades that we saw during this arc. It's not something that just happens. Then there is the River Mnemosyne, which can restore their lost consciousness. Why didn't Hermes mention that part? Only two explanations: either Hermes knows good well that Diana is familiar with how the Greek afterlife works, having been taught about it as part of her religious upbringing, and thus Hermes felt no need to explain that part to her; or once again, Azz decided to just chuck out a very important concept in Greek mythology for no good reason and there ARE no Rivers Lethe and Mnemosyne.

    Thus, Hermes' discussion here is about the DEFAULT settings for dead mortals and dead gods. The default setting is that mortals die, lose their consciousness, and become mindless shades who aren't aware of the passage of "eternity." Gods, on the other hand, die, KEEP their consciousness, and are acutely aware of how long "eternity" is. The only difference here is the loss of consciousness for mortals, which in ACTUAL Greek myth, is a reversible condition. Let a mortal shade drink from the Mnemosyne and he/she is just as aware of "eternity" as a dead god is because the mortal suddenly HAS awareness in the first place.

    If Azz wants to say that the Rivers Lethe and Mnemosyne don't exist in HIS Underworld, then he's going to have to come right out and say that. Otherwise, that's the default assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    That would be the extreme conclusion of this line of thinking, but I'm not sure it's the logical conclusion. I try not to think in such black-and-while way of thinking. For me, that she says today that she can't do anything doesn't mean she didn't try to do something thousands of years ago when she had a stronger reason. If she failed then, she may have given up trying and simply become resigned to her passive nature; that's part of why I find Demeter's monologue in 18 more poinent when read with the abduction of Persephone in mind.
    If we're talking about Demeter's divine nature to be passive? Which is just as unchangeable as Hera's nature to destroy women who sleep with her husband? Then if Demter is passive TODAY, then she was passive BACK THEN. Nothing extreme about it. Gods can't change their nature. If it was Demeter's nature to not defend herself from being eviscerated, then it was also her nature to not protect her daughter.

    That doesn't make her monologue more poignant, it just emphasizes what a wretched, pathetic creature this version of Demeter is and why the version in mythology is much better.
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
    -- Alfred Lord Tennyson --

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