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  1. #286
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Heh - I remember the creative team freaking out when it was released and loudly disclaiming that it was the intended cover or indicative of the story.

    But it will be interesting to see what does happen.

    Wonder Woman has already been powned once in this series that purports to show them as equals, as opposed to Clark, whothen steamrolled the king of the gods. If it happens again while Superman is still dishing out hell - well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

    Quote Originally Posted by super1man View Post
    You seem to be forgetting this picture(even if its not the cover):


    Supergirl, Powergirl can be considered main characters. After all they have their own book.
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  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Heh - I remember the creative team freaking out when it was released and loudly disclaiming that it was the intended cover or indicative of the story.

    But it will be interesting to see what does happen.

    Wonder Woman has already been powned once in this series that purports to show them as equals, as opposed to Clark, whothen steamrolled the king of the gods. If it happens again while Superman is still dishing out hell - well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
    WW fans strongarming the creators once or twice is not indicative of her position in the coupling. They will do it again. You just wait and watch.

    Whatever the issue was and even if the art was not for the cover, Tony did feel compelled to draw that picture for some reason. And if its not for the cover or for interior art, then I think it indeed shows what his thoughts are in the matter, moreso that a cover or art mandated on him.
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  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post


    I don't know, Silver Surfer dominates the Marvel heroes on the Rumbles board...
    I don't know The Hulk might be able to get angry enough to beat him, Thor has some very impressive feats as well. And Black bolts scream is powerful enough to hurt Galactis so I'm pretty sure it can do a lot of damage to the Surfer. Then you have high end mutants like Xman and Franklin Richards, who are reality warpers. The Surfer is strong but their are plenty of characters in his weight class.
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  4. #289

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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    I don't know The Hulk might be able to get angry enough to beat him, Thor has some very impressive feats as well. And Black bolts scream is powerful enough to hurt Galactis so I'm pretty sure it can do a lot of damage to the Surfer. Then you have high end mutants like Xman and Franklin Richards, who are reality warpers. The Surfer is strong but their are plenty of characters in his weight class.
    Franklin Richards is way above everyone you named (except maybe Xman, don't know who that is)

    Surfer could (if he remember his powers) just turn the Hulk back into Banner and not to mention is like 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times faster than Hulk

    Black Bolt is impressive, but still too slow
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  5. #290
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I see what you're saying. Thor has no female equivalent in Marvel, that's true. Ms Marvel is powerful but was never intended to be in the same power bracket as Thor. Her binary mode could probably match him, but to my knowledge she lacks that ability currently. My statement was to say that in the MU you don't have a single hero who is supposed to be most powerful. The title is shared.
    Well to be fair the Sentry was supposed to be the most powerful of the heroes in Marvel but it was only as long as his character arc needed. Then through his ability to pick and choose how powerful he needs to be he let himself die at the hands of Thor.

    No looking at Sentry as the Superman duplicate he is (sliver age "I can do anything I want" Superman) we see that the Marvel U isn't really built for such an animal because that guy was more powerful than Hulk, as smart as Reed, a better telepath than Prof. X, and more inspiring than Cap. You can't have such a guy in the Marvel U simply because it was in some ways built off the separation of all of the aspects that make up Superman (not always intentional on Marvel's part).

    But DC is not only built for having a guy like Superman it's built on his very back. While you don't have to make him to best at everything you still sometimes do simply because he's built that way. He's Mr perfect can do anything when you need him to be it's just in his DNA and everyone even Marvel knows it.

    But at the end of the day nearly any hero can beat any other (reasonably obviously!) if the situation is right. There will always be a "but" because heroes don't fight heroes unless something is amiss. Even Civil War where guys were going toe to toe of sound mind we still had the human factor to take into account. No body wanted to be there really so everything can be called into question if you wanted.

    I really just wish the back and forth about all this would end though.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    This IS actually addressing the purpose of the thread. Superman is the big gun.

    But here, we face a paradox. Superman is supposedly the most powerful being on the planet, which means he stands a kind of argument against gender equality.

    This is not particular to Superman. In DC, to the best of my knowledge, the top spot in EVERY area is held by a male. Wonder Woman is supposed to be the premier female hero, but she isn't actually the best at anything she does. Superman is stronger and more invulnerable. Batman [and many would say Superman] are smarter. The common belief seems to be that not only is Flash faster but Superman is as well. In SM/WW they even say Superman is better at flying. The only thing WW seems to possibly be better at is martial combat, and there are not only many here who would say she would still get taken down easily by Superman in hand to hand combat, but that if you took her powers away Batman would own her as well.

    In other words, the best woman is just that - the best for a woman but still second [or worse] to a man.

    It's not just DC, Marvel has the same thing going on. But we are talking about Superman and if he is going to claim the big gun status, the alpha dog position, then you cant be surprised that he becomes the caped personification of this issue.
    I Wonder Woman's the best H2H but doesn't just give her a win against anyone and everyone who wants to fight her H2H. The idea that just because she is the best at H2H gives her the win on Superman every time regardless of everything is dumb and doesn't make much sense to me. Not implying that it's the other way around and Superman should win all physical fights between the two though. It's more of a toss up. Superman may hit a good deal harder, move faster, and take more hits but WW know were and how to focus her hits combined with her great strength and speed. On the other hand WW may know all of that but Superman is not dumb and as mentioned before he hit's very very hard and moves very very fast and it quite hard to keep him down.

    Toss up.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfingers158 View Post
    Franklin Richards is way above everyone you named (except maybe Xman, don't know who that is)

    Surfer could (if he remember his powers) just turn the Hulk back into Banner and not to mention is like 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times faster than Hulk

    Black Bolt is impressive, but still too slow
    Lol love Franklin Richards and I love what Hickman did with the character.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by super1man View Post
    WW fans strongarming the creators once or twice is not indicative of her position in the coupling. They will do it again. You just wait and watch.

    Whatever the issue was and even if the art was not for the cover, Tony did feel compelled to draw that picture for some reason. And if its not for the cover or for interior art, then I think it indeed shows what his thoughts are in the matter, moreso that a cover or art mandated on him.
    Being mindful that the discussion is about the topic and NOT the fans I would say lots of creators over the years might have done better to pay attention to the fans. Hiketia is credited by many as one of the best WW graphic novels, but personally I was disappointed with the way Batman is shown acting dumb as toast when it comes to confronting Diana. Trying to punch your way through a person who spars with Kryptonians shows a distinct lack of strategic planning.

    There could be a number of explanations for the pic - for example, in the story an envisaged at the time Diana could have been ambushed by both enemies and blindsided. Since I cant get into the artists head all we can do is wait to see what actually makes it to the page and then judge based on further evidence.
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  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I Wonder Woman's the best H2H but doesn't just give her a win against anyone and everyone who wants to fight her H2H. The idea that just because she is the best at H2H gives her the win on Superman every time regardless of everything is dumb and doesn't make much sense to me. Not implying that it's the other way around and Superman should win all physical fights between the two though. It's more of a toss up. Superman may hit a good deal harder, move faster, and take more hits but WW know were and how to focus her hits combined with her great strength and speed. On the other hand WW may know all of that but Superman is not dumb and as mentioned before he hit's very very hard and moves very very fast and it quite hard to keep him down.

    Toss up.
    Again, this is predisposed on the idea that Superman IS significantly faster in terms of reflexes. For example, it is doubtful that his fists move faster than his heat vision beams, and Diana has been seen to use her bracers to block both.
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  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Being mindful that the discussion is about the topic and NOT the fans I would say lots of creators over the years might have done better to pay attention to the fans. Hiketia is credited by many as one of the best WW graphic novels, but personally I was disappointed with the way Batman is shown acting dumb as toast when it comes to confronting Diana. Trying to punch your way through a person who spars with Kryptonians shows a distinct lack of strategic planning.

    There could be a number of explanations for the pic - for example, in the story an envisaged at the time Diana could have been ambushed by both enemies and blindsided. Since I cant get into the artists head all we can do is wait to see what actually makes it to the page and then judge based on further evidence.
    Wow, now such a small thing can be taken as an insult to someone in the Superman boards. That's pathetic. Lets remember the way you said the story about the cover, would indicate that the creators were indeed strong armed, if true.

    I did not think Hiketia was any good. Was it considered good outside of WW fans? Did it sell that good?

    And yes, that would really not be the way Batman fights, even though in a straight fight Batman should loose.

    And yes, there could be a number of explanation for that picture if Tony drew it as a cover or as an interior page. Tony said it was neither. So he just drew it himself without any edict. So, it just shows his inner whimsy.
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  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Again, this is predisposed on the idea that Superman IS significantly faster in terms of reflexes. For example, it is doubtful that his fists move faster than his heat vision beams, and Diana has been seen to use her bracers to block both.
    Superman can attain light speed. If that's still true, he would be as fast as his hEAt vision. If he is faster than light , he would be faster than his heat vision. Its just that, if Sueprman is flying at lightspeed and then he unleashes his heat vision, then from his static frame of reference , his heat vision would be light speed whereas from an outside reference it would seem to be 2Xlight-speed. That's why, if he unleashed his heat Vision while chasing Flash, it should hit Flash - even if FLASH CAN TRAVEL 1.2 x LIGHT SPEED.
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  12. #297
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Again, this is predisposed on the idea that Superman IS significantly faster in terms of reflexes. For example, it is doubtful that his fists move faster than his heat vision beams, and Diana has been seen to use her bracers to block both.
    That's more timing and anticipation than raw speed as we've seen Batman do similar things. Is Batman now faster than light? No. Also Blocking a blow from Superman with her bracelets doesn't mean much because it doesn't stop that concussive force behind it if it is great enough as we've seen with Doomsday who simply broke her arms. It's possible that due to Superman's greater strength he could do the same.

    But all of this is is neither here nor there as I've already stated that it's more of a toss up do to both having things going for them. My examples that you are trying to micromanage was more of a generalization to show that both have things going for them and can tip a fight in either direction given the right conditions. It's not a forgone conclusion that one will ALWAYS beat the other is what I truly want to get across. I don't understand why it can't just be left at that?

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by super1man View Post
    Superman can attain light speed. If that's still true, he would be as fast as his hEAt vision. If he is faster than light , he would be faster than his heat vision. Its just that, if Sueprman is flying at lightspeed and then he unleashes his heat vision, then from his static frame of reference , his heat vision would be light speed whereas from an outside reference it would seem to be 2Xlight-speed. That's why, if he unleashed his heat Vision while chasing Flash, it should hit Flash - even if FLASH CAN TRAVEL 1.2 x LIGHT SPEED.
    Yes he's still light speed in the new 52

  14. #299
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by super1man View Post
    Wow, now such a small thing can be taken as an insult to someone in the Superman boards. That's pathetic. Lets remember the way you said the story about the cover, would indicate that the creators were indeed strong armed, if true.
    That wasn't a sign of offence, it was a friendly reminder. Also, nothing I said confirmed that opinion. The creators themselves said that it wasn't the intended cover or storyline. Were they being strong armed or were they merely clearing up a misconception?

    I did not think Hiketia was any good. Was it considered good outside of WW fans? Did it sell that good?

    And yes, that would really not be the way Batman fights, even though in a straight fight Batman should loose.

    And yes, there could be a number of explanation for that picture if Tony drew it as a cover or as an interior page. Tony said it was neither. So he just drew it himself without any edict. So, it just shows his inner whimsy.
    I agree he should lose, but that's why he fights smart, not fair. You don't survive years of fighting Killer Croc by being stupid.
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  15. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by super1man View Post
    Superman can attain light speed. If that's still true, he would be as fast as his hEAt vision. If he is faster than light , he would be faster than his heat vision. Its just that, if Sueprman is flying at lightspeed and then he unleashes his heat vision, then from his static frame of reference , his heat vision would be light speed whereas from an outside reference it would seem to be 2Xlight-speed. That's why, if he unleashed his heat Vision while chasing Flash, it should hit Flash - even if FLASH CAN TRAVEL 1.2 x LIGHT SPEED.
    Since everything about him using his heat vision while at light speed is impossible, it follows that it must be equally possible for Wonder Woman to deflect it, even if he is doing it. Assuming he can throw a fist at light speed, which is not certain, if he is stationary when he throw the punch. But since Einstein tells us that if you are on a train travelling at lightspeed and you move from the back to the front but your are still not travelling faster than light, then if she can block the heat vision she can block his fist.

    Yeah, its mind bending.
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