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  1. #496
    Junior Member TheMerc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eXplorer View Post
    After coming from DC and the void of darkness, into the figurative magical world of light at Marvel... i was getting into All-New X-Men/Uncanny X-Men and i was going to the threads to share in the positivity and what i found was negativity [and observing negativity elsewhere also], which astounded me that people would be so negative towards this type of positive creativity. Which led to the expression of the post, which is based on personal expression and a belief or hope in the future state of things as i see it.

    If one was encompassed by the darkness within that stretch at DC, every comic filled with darkness, filled with violence... filled with death, no positivity... no laughter, no fun... no comic tone. They might understand this perspective in how much appreciation one might have for the art that is opposite to this.
    I understand what you mean: there's a decidedly excessive dark tone to many of DC's New 52 titles (though less so than was the case some months ago, I'm inclined to say). In that respect, I can understand that the change in tone might have been such a breath of fresh air for you. However, the problem people seem to have with Bendis regarding his X-Men titles seems to be a) they are decompressed to the point where very little changes takes place from issue to issue, b) many find the teenage drama to not be all that compelling, c) the fact that Bendis ostensibly used his position in the company to steal Kitty Pryde from Aaron's X-Men titles (notice the last-minute change on the cover of WatX 41) only to characteristically write her out-of-character, and d) the fact that (what many assumed was going to be a temporary gimmick) the time-displaced Original Five are still around (mind you, these are not all my complaints, just what, judging from what I've read, seem to be the most general gripes). Add to that the regular complaints many people usually have re. Bendis' work, and you see why not everyone is as enchanted as you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by eXplorer View Post
    As i mentioned earlier in the thread, it would be like someone from the future explaining why toast is responsible for the end of the world. Which is probably why so many can't seem to understand what is being said. Haha. Which is a constant intrigue to me in some strange type of puzzle way.

    I feel like because people have been exposed to, and have been spoiled with an abundance of such amazing treasure that they don't have the reverent appreciation as they would when it was gone, which is what the song in the original post represents, "how can it be, we never see.... what we have until it's gone.... why is it so, we never know... what we have until it's gone, until we burn... we never learn, what we have until it's gone.".
    And see, this is why so many have an issue with what you have to say: you're assuming that, because people throw criticism Bendis' way, they are against, like you say, "fun, light-hearted" comics, and that couldn't be farther from the truth! There are countless examples of series that fit that description, both ongoing (Daredevil, Superior Foes, Hawkeye and, apparently, the new Ms. Marvel) and complete (DnA's Guardians of the Galaxy/Nova, Cornell's Captain Britain and MI13), that are critically acclaimed, quite lauded and boast some quite vocal fanbases. The appreciation for these series is already there, regardless of how many grim titles are currently being released. However, you can't put Bendis' name on a thread's title and assume people will automatically miss him as soon as he retires, as if he'd been the only source of light-hearted comics in the industry. The man has value, certainly, but let's not act like he's the end-all-be-all of comics...

  2. #497
    Senior Member UltimateTy's Avatar
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    I'll miss ultimate spider-man but nothing else
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  3. #498
    Member OberonOsiris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by million_suns View Post
    His Avengers felt like a cast of actors woodenly delivering an exposition-lite narrative, rather than characters responding to plot.
    This.totally. I never used to be into trashing ANY writer or artist. I am a very forgiving person in that regard. He has an agenda and a set of 'cool' standards. As bad as DA was, for it's incredibly wrong characterization of Wanda, outright changing of 'norms' and accepted concepts in Marvel (Chaos magic, Dr. STrange's background with Wanda, etc), I really don't think there is much about the New Avengers to reccomend it. Seems like he just thought he wanted a cool/like JLA book with near-corrollaries to them (not Spider Woman, of course... and I would have to say that he changed her backstory and stuff enough to almost make me hate her - but I got better).

    When he has really destroyed X-Men (not likely I imagine) maybe some of the Wanda haters will realize what he really does.
    "Mmmmmmm, Namor" - Celebrating Cold Water's Appreciation of All Things Namor

  4. #499
    Senior Member HaveAtThee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    And right there was your mistake, equating Bendis with positive laughter, fun and a lighthearted quirkiness, comedic tone. I have a hard time associating those things with a guy that writes a scene in which a female character is demeaningly beaten by a gang of male thugs, or who has another once noble and erudite villian calling another female character a fat cow (soooo funny), or Luke Cage's back door visits to Jessica Jones (her state of mind then, not the act per say), or whose epitome of Bevis and Butthead humor is having Spider-Man throw up in his mask because someone ate raw eggs, or making fun of the needyness of mental illness, and I could go on and on and on...
    If you truly want to talk about the positive use of humor in comics, talk about Pad, Mark Waid or Keith Giffen. They were doing it long before he did, and so much better. Snark is not light and positive humor.
    No offense, but this is once again, someone giving Bendis credit for what is not his due.

    Peace

  5. #500
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Bendis set the bar so low that i'm not bothered at all by Hickman using the Avengers name to tell his new univers stories.
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

  6. #501
    Could've been Dooma. eXplorer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMerc View Post
    I understand what you mean: there's a decidedly excessive dark tone to many of DC's New 52 titles (though less so than was the case some months ago, I'm inclined to say). In that respect, I can understand that the change in tone might have been such a breath of fresh air for you. However, the problem people seem to have with Bendis regarding his X-Men titles seems to be a) they are decompressed to the point where very little changes takes place from issue to issue, b) many find the teenage drama to not be all that compelling, c) the fact that Bendis ostensibly used his position in the company to steal Kitty Pryde from Aaron's X-Men titles (notice the last-minute change on the cover of WatX 41) only to characteristically write her out-of-character, and d) the fact that (what many assumed was going to be a temporary gimmick) the time-displaced Original Five are still around (mind you, these are not all my complaints, just what, judging from what I've read, seem to be the most general gripes). Add to that the regular complaints many people usually have re. Bendis' work, and you see why not everyone is as enchanted as you are.



    And see, this is why so many have an issue with what you have to say: you're assuming that, because people throw criticism Bendis' way, they are against, like you say, "fun, light-hearted" comics, and that couldn't be farther from the truth! There are countless examples of series that fit that description, both ongoing (Daredevil, Superior Foes, Hawkeye and, apparently, the new Ms. Marvel) and complete (DnA's Guardians of the Galaxy/Nova, Cornell's Captain Britain and MI13), that are critically acclaimed, quite lauded and boast some quite vocal fanbases. The appreciation for these series is already there, regardless of how many grim titles are currently being released. However, you can't put Bendis' name on a thread's title and assume people will automatically miss him as soon as he retires, as if he'd been the only source of light-hearted comics in the industry. The man has value, certainly, but let's not act like he's the end-all-be-all of comics...
    If one appreciates something, they appreciate it... not a bit here, a piece there.

    I'm not speaking on the constructive criticisms people have toward Bendis or others in their opinions, i'm speaking of the negativity toward positive creativity and the art that possess qualities that i've mentioned (positive laughter, etc). Whoever the artist, whatever the art...

    If someone says that they have a true appreciation for lighthearted, comedic tone... positive laughter, quirkiness... fun... within my perception they would have a true appreciation for such things, such art.

    After this thread and observing other threads, i see why some artists don't like to get involved in the superhero genre, people dissect and analyze these comics as if they are the great literary classics, as if it's Whitman, Austen, Dickens, Shakespeare, Keats, Eliot, Dickinson, etc. or sacred religious texts. As if they are the greatest creations of humanity, and take them so serious to the point of absurdity.

    No exaggeration, i use to translate and study the Christian Bible from it's original texts (language) in the Old and New Testament, and the analyzing, dissecting, overall treatment wasn't even close within that... as found in comics. Haha aha. haha. ahaha hahahaha ha ahah ah hahahahaha ah ha ah ha aha hahahaha,

    Oh my glob and toast! And by the stars! What have people done with/to the fun.
    Last edited by eXplorer; 02-18-2014 at 08:11 PM.

  7. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by eXplorer View Post
    If one appreciates something, they appreciate it... not a bit here, a piece there.

    I'm not speaking on the constructive criticisms people have toward Bendis or others in their opinions, i'm speaking of the negativity toward positive creativity and the art that possess qualities that i've mentioned (positive laughter, etc). Whoever the artist, whatever the art...

    If someone says that they have a true appreciation for lighthearted, comedic tone... positive laughter, quirkiness... fun... within my perception they would have a true appreciation for such things, such art.

    After this thread and observing other threads, i see why some artists don't like to get involved in the superhero genre, people dissect and analyze these comics as if they are the great literary classics, as if it's Whitman, Austen, Dickens, Shakespeare, Keats, Eliot, Dickinson, etc. or sacred religious texts. As if they are the greatest creations of humanity, and take them so serious to the point of absurdity.

    No exaggeration, i use to translate and study the Christian Bible from it's original texts (language) in the Old and New Testament, and the analyzing, dissecting, overall treatment wasn't even close within that... as found in comics. Haha aha. haha. ahaha hahahaha ha ahah ah hahahahaha ah ha ah ha aha hahahaha,

    Oh my glob and toast! And by the stars! What have people done with/to the fun.
    You know... instead of trying to lecture others on how they should perceive things (such as comics) why don't you actually take some time to listen and learn from others?

    Knowledge and insight goes both ways, after all, unless maybe you feel that you are so "enlightened" that you can't learn anything from us uneducated comic book heathens.

    And the first thing that you should learn is that you can't start a thread touting the "genius" of Bendis and then turn around and blame people for not "understanding" that you weren't actually talking about Bendis himself when you created the thread... despite referencing him specifically in both the post header and the initial post.

    I mean, if you really want to go there -- I'm a Classics major who has written three books, translated both Ancient Greek and Latin tomes (Cicero, Plato, Ovid, Aristotle and more) and done in-depth collegiate studies of not only the Bible but also of the Bhagavad Gita, the I-Ching, and quite a few Buddhist sutras, but I still appreciate comics in equal measure...

    ...and even if I didn't, I still wouldn't be so arrogant as to think I couldn't learn something from them, nor from the people who read them.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 02-18-2014 at 08:49 PM.

  8. #503

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    Bendis set the bar so low that i'm not bothered at all by Hickman using the Avengers name to tell his new univers stories.
    Ouch.

    10101010

  9. #504
    Junior Member TheMerc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eXplorer View Post
    If one appreciates something, they appreciate it... not a bit here, a piece there.
    Well, that's, like, your opinion, man...
    If that's the way you approach any piece of art and if that works for you, that's great, but you can't generalize that sentiment and claim that one has to enjoy an artist's output wholesale to call himself/herself a "fan" of something. I can enjoy a comic/movie/tv show/song but still have the critical judgment and wherewithal to say that, despite my enjoyment, there are still flaws (minor as they might be). I don't enjoy the thing any less because of them, because everything. has. flaws! Most people's enjoyment comes despite them!

    Quote Originally Posted by eXplorer View Post
    If someone says that they have a true appreciation for lighthearted, comedic tone... positive laughter, quirkiness... fun... within my perception they would have a true appreciation for such things, such art.
    Why would someone mandatorily have to enjoy something simply because it's lighter in tone? That's like saying that one has to enjoy anything that's written in a darker, grittier style.

    Every piece of art is classified in genres, and within each of these genres, there are good and bad examples of what the genre entails. Personally, I dearly love Star Wars and (to a lesser extent) Star Trek, but I was never particularly fond of shows like Stargate or Battlestar Galactica. My love for the first two isn't diminished because of my enjoyment (or rather lack thereof. No disrespect to fans of these shows, they're just not for me) of the latter two.

    People CAN enjoy something that's lighthearted and fun, I don't see why that was ever a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by eXplorer View Post
    After this thread and observing other threads, i see why some artists don't like to get involved in the superhero genre, people dissect and analyze these comics as if they are the great literary classics, as if it's Whitman, Austen, Dickens, Shakespeare, Keats, Eliot, Dickinson, etc. or sacred religious texts. As if they are the greatest creations of humanity, and take them so serious to the point of absurdity.
    There's taking something way too seriously, and taking something not seriously at all: few people on this thread belong to the former category, and you seem to fit in the latter. People analyze these things because a) after comics started being taken seriously as pieces of literature, and b) started costing enough to merit a higher degree of critical judgment, some discussion is entirely justified! Be it regarding characterization, story progression, dialogue, art work, what-have-you, there are plenty of avenues and elements worthy of debate (i.e. something that doesn't have to mean-spirited and where opposing sides might be willing to meet each other halfway, though the opposing scenario is, unfortunately, rather more prevalent).

    Comics aren't as thoroughly analysed as, say "Crime and Punishment" or "The Trial", because, to put it plainly, it's very seldom that a comic comes out with such intricate subtext and such a compelling story to merit that degree of discussion, but when such a comic comes out, why shouldn't it be discussed with the degree of fervent and profound analysis with which one analyses Dostoyevsky's or Kafka's works? Is it because they feature fantasious characters, such as people who can fly, lift cars over their heads or listen in on someone's thoughts? If so, why are the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, J.K. Rowling and George R.R. Martin considered by many to be classics?

    Comics, like art of any kind, merit some degree of discussion. If you're that offended by that that the minute two different perspectives on something comic-book-related are discussed that you immediately classify it as a highfalutin debate over the sex of the angels, I don't know what to tell you...

    Quote Originally Posted by eXplorer View Post
    No exaggeration, i use to translate and study the Christian Bible from it's original texts (language) in the Old and New Testament, and the analyzing, dissecting, overall treatment wasn't even close within that... as found in comics. Haha aha. haha. ahaha hahahaha ha ahah ah hahahahaha ah ha ah ha aha hahahaha,

    Oh my glob and toast! And by the stars! What have people done with/to the fun.
    Wow, that sure told us... [/sarcasm]

    Do you seriously not see how incredibly arrogant, pompous, insulting and demeaning what you wrote above is?
    I don't know what to tell you after that, and I certaily don't know what to tell you that will finally make you understand, after 34 pages of discussion, that *gasp* people have different opinions. I'll just say that, if you haven't analysed the Bible to the degree that people here dissect their comics, a) you certainly weren't thorough enough, and b) you can't begrudge people's high degree of investment in their passions for the lack of your own in yours.

  10. #505
    Eschaton Immanentizer AnthonyD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    Bendis set the bar so low that i'm not bothered at all by Hickman using the Avengers name to tell his new univers stories.
    Woah, slowdown there, buddy. The inevitable Hickman-bashing wave hasn't begun yet.
    "The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door."

  11. #506
    Eschaton Immanentizer AnthonyD's Avatar
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    That was beautiful, man.
    "The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door."

  12. #507
    Super Amalgamated! Alan2099's Avatar
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    And right there was your mistake, equating Bendis with positive laughter, fun and a lighthearted quirkiness, comedic tone. I have a hard time associating those things with a guy that writes a scene in which a female character is demeaningly beaten by a gang of male thugs, or who has another once noble and erudite villian calling another female character a fat cow (soooo funny), or Luke Cage's back door visits to Jessica Jones (her state of mind then, not the act per say), or whose epitome of Bevis and Butthead humor is having Spider-Man throw up in his mask because someone ate raw eggs, or making fun of the needyness of mental illness, and I could go on and on and on...
    If I were to describe Bendis's sense of humor, I'd say it falls more along the lines of "I wish I was Quentin Tarantino." Except lacking the style and wit.

    His jokes often come at the expense of other characters, where we're supposed to laugh at them, rather than with them. A bigger problem is that it seems like the jokes come first then he tries to figure out which character should say them rather than having the humor come based on the characters established personality.
    Highly Evolved Creature Totally Orientated on Revenge.

  13. #508
    Could've been Dooma. eXplorer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMerc View Post
    Well, that's, like, your opinion, man...
    If that's the way you approach any piece of art and if that works for you, that's great, but you can't generalize that sentiment and claim that one has to enjoy an artist's output wholesale to call himself/herself a "fan" of something. I can enjoy a comic/movie/tv show/song but still have the critical judgment and wherewithal to say that, despite my enjoyment, there are still flaws (minor as they might be). I don't enjoy the thing any less because of them, because everything. has. flaws! Most people's enjoyment comes despite them!



    Why would someone mandatorily have to enjoy something simply because it's lighter in tone? That's like saying that one has to enjoy anything that's written in a darker, grittier style.

    Every piece of art is classified in genres, and within each of these genres, there are good and bad examples of what the genre entails. Personally, I dearly love Star Wars and (to a lesser extent) Star Trek, but I was never particularly fond of shows like Stargate or Battlestar Galactica. My love for the first two isn't diminished because of my enjoyment (or rather lack thereof. No disrespect to fans of these shows, they're just not for me) of the latter two.

    People CAN enjoy something that's lighthearted and fun, I don't see why that was ever a discussion.



    There's taking something way too seriously, and taking something not seriously at all: few people on this thread belong to the former category, and you seem to fit in the latter. People analyze these things because a) after comics started being taken seriously as pieces of literature, and b) started costing enough to merit a higher degree of critical judgment, some discussion is entirely justified! Be it regarding characterization, story progression, dialogue, art work, what-have-you, there are plenty of avenues and elements worthy of debate (i.e. something that doesn't have to mean-spirited and where opposing sides might be willing to meet each other halfway, though the opposing scenario is, unfortunately, rather more prevalent).

    Comics aren't as thoroughly analysed as, say "Crime and Punishment" or "The Trial", because, to put it plainly, it's very seldom that a comic comes out with such intricate subtext and such a compelling story to merit that degree of discussion, but when such a comic comes out, why shouldn't it be discussed with the degree of fervent and profound analysis with which one analyses Dostoyevsky's or Kafka's works? Is it because they feature fantasious characters, such as people who can fly, lift cars over their heads or listen in on someone's thoughts? If so, why are the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, J.K. Rowling and George R.R. Martin considered by many to be classics?

    Comics, like art of any kind, merit some degree of discussion. If you're that offended by that that the minute two different perspectives on something comic-book-related are discussed that you immediately classify it as a highfalutin debate over the sex of the angels, I don't know what to tell you...



    Wow, that sure told us... [/sarcasm]

    Do you seriously not see how incredibly arrogant, pompous, insulting and demeaning what you wrote above is?
    I don't know what to tell you after that, and I certaily don't know what to tell you that will finally make you understand, after 34 pages of discussion, that *gasp* people have different opinions. I'll just say that, if you haven't analysed the Bible to the degree that people here dissect their comics, a) you certainly weren't thorough enough, and b) you can't begrudge people's high degree of investment in their passions for the lack of your own in yours.
    What i've seen?
    I've seen barely one person understand anything i've said in this entire thread and misinterpret everything i've said, and not only that but misinterpret the meaning of the entire thread even after painstaking and patient explanation, and constant efforts at bridging an understanding.

    Why? I have no need to explain myself to anyone, i have no need to validate myself... partly to try and constantly correct the continuous misinterpretation of my every post, and as aforementioned to bridge that understanding in hopes that through the exploration of variant perspectives that it may prove beneficial to someone.

    And some benefit has come out of it, because i've learned some stuff about how other people approach certain contexts, and how they perceive things... and what things means to them, etc, etc and so forth and so on... and that is supposed to be the meaning of the bridge, an understanding, a sharing, a learning. So, at least i have gained benefit from the thread in sharing and exploring of variant perspective.

    Unbelievably... for some reason people are convinced they do understand, even when i'm telling them and explaining that they don't actually understand. I mean, really... it's astounding, it's my expression and my thoughts and people are telling me they understand better and more than i do, NO! You don't get it, not at all. Hehe.

    Even in recent responses (like this one quoted) it's completely misinterpreted my sentiments in every way, shape and form.

    I don't know if it's that people aren't actually reading it and just sort of scanning it, that people are so blind by their dislike for Bendis that it's clouding what's being actually said, that people just don't care and have their own agends. *Shrug*.

    It's quite frustrating to have to continuously respond because of the misinterpretation of one's posts, because they're basically responding to something that doesn't even exist it creates a twisted perception within my posts as if that's what is being said when it's not actually being said in such a context/subtext.

    Like, for example in these last ridiculous responses (ridiculous because it's not even responding to anything that actually exists, it's a complete misinterpretation of what's being said and so it's not even a response to me in actuality) heh.

    The actual sentiment of the post was nothing more than a lighthearted way to say... what happened to the fun, aren't comics supposed to be fun. The last words in the post sums it up. "Oh my glob and toast! And by the stars! What have people done with/to the fun."

    People really think a post that says "Oh my glob and toast" with a humility smiley icon... is some kind of serious condemnation of people? Haha. I mean reaaaaaaaaaaaally!

    Bringing up the translation and studying of the bible (or revered classic literature) just means that it's something that's taken extremely serious and analyzed and dissected at great lengths there's very little "fun" involved... to establish the absurdity of taking comics too seriously instead of having fun, that even a bible is not handled in such context/subtext. Yet, people are breaking out that they studied abroad in Paris and translated every religious text, that they can do 2000 push ups, that they're dating a super model as a response, which... even in that, exists irony, as a commentary in what's being talked about of taking things too serious to the level of absurdity.
    [just for clarity before the misinterpretations begin, that's not all literal]

    Yes, if you have an appreciation for something you appreciate it. I greatly appreciate positive comedy (not pranks and more negative variation), that means every and all form of positive comedy i have a deep appreciation for [The purity of, the spirit of] That doesn't mean you can't criticize or not be interested, or that you have to love it and be compelled and interested by it always, beyond the appreciation of said thing... it simply means you have a deep appreciation for it. It's not opinion, it's a state of mind... a state of being. It's a humility, a reverence for the bigger picture/grander scheme and bigger than any person or people, not what's literally in front of one's face so to speak. It's perspective, which is everything.

    What people are saying about arrogance, and this and that... is nothing more than a reflection within a misinterpretation. There's nothing actually arrogant within my posts. All there is extreme patience in creating a bridge of understanding and correcting of misinterpretation and constant explanation.

    I have nothing to be a arrogant about, i have no self confidence to speak of and really have no form of arrogance that i could even draw upon to even see that perspective as being a reality. If you knew me personally, you would get why me being arrogant is quite funny and silly.

    The content of my posts all speak to the positive, the entire theme and spirit of this thread is about appreciation, and positivity and fun... and ultimately it's just my expression of a hope for a desired future state of being and appreciation that currently doesn't exist, that's a pretty funny thing about this thread, it's not even meant to be based in the NOW within a linear time perception, it's based in the future where things haven't even taken shape and form as of yet.
    [i'm not the one on the side of negativity here]

    There is a possibility, a variable... that i am simply one of the worst explainers of all time.

    Hopefully, i can stay out of this thread from now. The frustration of constantly being misinterpreted had it's time and the endless explanation had it's purpose but the fun is fading.
    If i do manage to actually leave for good this time, i will leave to say any responses to my post have the possibility of being a misinterpretation, That it could be twisted and not actually what is meant and said, so...
    Last edited by eXplorer; 02-19-2014 at 08:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eXplorer View Post
    What people are saying about arrogance, and this and that... is nothing more than a reflection within a misinterpretation. There's nothing actually arrogant within my posts. All there is extreme patience in creating a bridge of understanding and correcting of misinterpretation and constant explanation.
    Understanding goes both ways.

    Since it's apparently not your goal to "understand" and respect the viewpoints of others, then you shouldn't expect it in return.

    And I don't know about you, but I did have fun translating Greek texts, but not so much the Roman (copycats, the lot of them).

    As you said -- it's all perspective.

    Maybe if you'd actually listen to people (instead of being so defensive) you'd stop trying to verbally chastise everyone here... and pick up a Peter Allen David book as suggested by a previous poster, which more accurately represents the "sentiment" that you keep trying to claim in your many, many posts that no one understands.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 02-19-2014 at 08:41 AM.

  15. #510
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    His jokes often come at the expense of other characters, where we're supposed to laugh at them, rather than with them. A bigger problem is that it seems like the jokes come first then he tries to figure out which character should say them rather than having the humor come based on the characters established personality.
    This says it all. The best jokes are always the ones you laugh with others, rather than at others.

    Peace

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