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  1. #121
    Senior Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Spectrum_Morality View Post
    You could have made the same argument for Magneto, Loki, the Venom Symbiote, and Kaine a few years back. They all have some blood on their hands, but they've all managed to be heroes for quite some time now. Doc Ock is not such a hopeless case.

    I can only think of two villains would could never be redeemed; Carnage and the Red Skull.
    Ha! I just said the same thing. That said, I think it's fair to point out 'emeshed in public consciousness' as a villain. Doc Ock and the Green Goblin are Spidey's two top villains, and in pretty much any form of public media, that's what they'll be. That's why I fully expect Otto to simply return to villainy /eventually/. That said, as a comics character, he's pretty 'hot' at the moment so I hope they'll let it ride as long as people are interested.

    Also, yeah. Punching Nazis never gets old.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Ha! I just said the same thing. That said, I think it's fair to point out 'emeshed in public consciousness' as a villain. Doc Ock and the Green Goblin are Spidey's two top villains, and in pretty much any form of public media, that's what they'll be. That's why I fully expect Otto to simply return to villainy /eventually/. That said, as a comics character, he's pretty 'hot' at the moment so I hope they'll let it ride as long as people are interested.

    Also, yeah. Punching Nazis never gets old.
    I see where you're coming from. At least with Magneto, there was always an alignment of goals between him and the original X-Men, so his portrayals were usually in a better light than if he was some crazed killer who spouted lines like "Welcome to die".

    I think Doc Ock's future is up in the air for now. If he stays a good guy, I'm sure that future movies or animated series might paint him to be a better person or there will be a 'hidden back story' miniseries where he does some good deeds while he was a full-fledged villain.

  3. #123
    Noob Mutant kevinism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicFan1988 View Post
    I do think this is a good point, and Otto might try to be good if he got moral support, but the problem is Otto does so much bad on the side, it's hard for people to give it to him. If he really wanted that kind of support, he shouldn't push so many people away from him. Add that to his immoral choices when fighting crime, and it's pretty much impossible to sympathize with him. And I know people say Otto's a complex character, but to me, he's like a middle school bully; he wants love and attention, but lashes out at everything and everyone so much, he never gets it.

    And if you ask me, that's why SSM fails as a redemption story. Otto still has so much of that ruthless behavior, at this rate he's never going to get it.
    How can you say it FAILS when it isn't over yet?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Ha! I just said the same thing. That said, I think it's fair to point out 'emeshed in public consciousness' as a villain. Doc Ock and the Green Goblin are Spidey's two top villains, and in pretty much any form of public media, that's what they'll be. That's why I fully expect Otto to simply return to villainy /eventually/. That said, as a comics character, he's pretty 'hot' at the moment so I hope they'll let it ride as long as people are interested.

    Also, yeah. Punching Nazis never gets old.
    There's always the off chance we might end up with an extra Otto; considering Doc Ock's body is gone somewhere at the moment. Then you can have a not so evil Doc Ock, or the Parker brothers people never asked for.

  5. #125
    My Turn. Kevin Nichols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Spectrum_Morality View Post
    You could have made the same argument for Magneto, Loki, the Venom Symbiote, and Kaine a few years back. They all have some blood on their hands, but they've all managed to be heroes for quite some time now. Doc Ock is not such a hopeless case.

    I can only think of two villains would could never be redeemed; Carnage and the Red Skull.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Well, I look at it like this. There was a time when people would say the same thing about Magneto. Much depends on the writing from here out. I suspect he'll go back to being a villain -- just a more developed and interesting villain before. That said, I'm kinda interested in seeing more Doc Ock solo adventures as a mad scientist out to beat any adversary that he thinks can provide him an interesting challenge. I mean, he almost seems a little... Houseish in the way he only focuses on 'interesting' challenges. xD

    "The Superior Doctor Octopus: MAD SCIENTIST" could be a lot of fun. xD
    Fair points. I didn't know that Loki and Magneto were currently heroes, but I know that Magneto has been a hero a few times before. I could say that Magneto's villainy stems from politics rather than insanity, but he's certainly been known to commit wholesale murder as well, so your point absolutely stands. Same goes for Kaine (although he was a much more minor villain than someone like Magneto or Ock). The Venom symbiote might be a little trickier just because its been written so many different ways over the years. Sometimes the symbiote is inherently evil, other times it depends more on the host.

    So, I'll concede that it's possible for Ock to be redeemed, I just find it very unlikely. Of course, if I had a quarter for every time I've been wrong about something, I'd be typing this from an island while sipping a cocktail with about eleven umbrellas in it.
    "Women... they come and go, but the Jonah is eternal." - ViewtifulJC

  6. #126
    One Hoopy Frood Schmed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols View Post
    , I'd be typing this from an island while sipping a cocktail with about eleven umbrellas in it.
    With your pinky out....while reading Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane.
    Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without trying to invent any more of it.

    "First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes you."

  7. #127
    My Turn. Kevin Nichols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmed View Post
    With your pinky out....while reading Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane.
    Accurate.


    Schmitty sucks
    "Women... they come and go, but the Jonah is eternal." - ViewtifulJC

  8. #128
    Senior Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols View Post
    Fair points. I didn't know that Loki and Magneto were currently heroes, but I know that Magneto has been a hero a few times before. I could say that Magneto's villainy stems from politics rather than insanity, but he's certainly been known to commit wholesale murder as well, so your point absolutely stands. Same goes for Kaine (although he was a much more minor villain than someone like Magneto or Ock). The Venom symbiote might be a little trickier just because its been written so many different ways over the years. Sometimes the symbiote is inherently evil, other times it depends more on the host.

    So, I'll concede that it's possible for Ock to be redeemed, I just find it very unlikely. Of course, if I had a quarter for every time I've been wrong about something, I'd be typing this from an island while sipping a cocktail with about eleven umbrellas in it.
    Redemption isn't an all or nothing thing anyways. It's possible for Ock to find a /small measure/ of it and still be a bastard -- just not the kind of bastard who tries to set the world on fire. Ock as cheerful mad scientist who embraces being Doctor Octopus and focuses on challenging heroes /and/ villains because of scientific curiousity and on (often but not always misguided) attempts to 'fix' the world is also compelling. There's a lot of ways to take him. What I want is for them to build on this and keep going. They can /always/ go back at any time they want to. I just don't want them to jump /right/ backwards, you know? Keep developing it, see where it goes, and let it happen. Otto is gonna need a break from being the primary Spidey villain for a while /anyways/ post SSM, IMO. Limboing him would be a waste.

    In short, I look at it like this: if Slott's creative direction allows for it, SSM ends, and there's an audience who'd be interested in Otto solo adventures for a bit, go for it. But the primary things are 'creative direction allows for it' and 'SSM ending'. ;)
    Last edited by Tendrin; 01-03-2014 at 11:50 PM.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Hell. He was pretty sympathetic in Spider-Man 2 already.

  10. #130
    Releasing Johnny's torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Well of course the movie had to have him go from deranged to sympathetic in less then two hours, with one little inspirational talk from Peter making the difference. Which brings up an interesting question: how much of his behavior can be blamed on the nanotech messing with his mind and how much of it was of his own volition?
    Johnny Storm was dead; who is this resurrected Johnny Storm?
    "Here, hold my Annihilus…" Johnny Storm, Fantastic Four #601

  11. #131
    Senior Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    Well of course the movie had to have him go from deranged to sympathetic in less then two hours, with one little inspirational talk from Peter making the difference. Which brings up an interesting question: how much of his behavior can be blamed on the nanotech messing with his mind and how much of it was of his own volition?
    Now, now. The movie had him go from sympathetic to deranged to sympathetic!

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    Well of course the movie had to have him go from deranged to sympathetic in less then two hours, with one little inspirational talk from Peter making the difference. Which brings up an interesting question: how much of his behavior can be blamed on the nanotech messing with his mind and how much of it was of his own volition?
    The closest thing to seeing Otto before his accident was that Doctor Octopus: Year One mini, and I have no idea if that one counts. Especially with the nano tech controlled arms bit now.

    Does alternate universes count towards establishing a precedent? Like House of M where supposedly everyone got their wish, or something.
    Last edited by Pako; 01-04-2014 at 12:56 AM.

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