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  1. #1

    Default Will SpOck never become a Hero because we Demonize Him?

    Anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention to Superior Spider-Man knows that despite his promise to become a better person and a hero, Doc Ock has been doing quite a few morally wrong things. He's brutally beaten people, killed, antagonized some of Peter's allies, used mind control to force people to do his bidding, and has been wrecking havoc on Peter's life.

    But he's also done a lot of good things. He has been stopping crime, he has used peaceful methods to solve problems despite his first instinct telling him to be violent, saved people, and has actively been working to improve Peter's life.

    SpOck is a complex character who is doing both good and bad. It is easy to compare him to Peter to judge his actions, but why is it that we've readily accepted other heroes who have done things just like SpOck. Kaine has hurt villains more than he needed to, Wolverine has killed others, Iron Man faced off against some of his closest allies, and Peter himself made a bad call in judgement that got Uncle Ben killed.

    But we're not so forgiving with SpOck. It seems that only his bad actions deserve to be talked about, even though he has truly done a lot of good too. It's been hinted that a reason he became a villain in the first place in because he never had supportive people to encourage him to be a hero. Is his attempt as the Superior Spider-Man useless if things continue this way?

  2. #2
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    I do think this is a good point, and Otto might try to be good if he got moral support, but the problem is Otto does so much bad on the side, it's hard for people to give it to him. If he really wanted that kind of support, he shouldn't push so many people away from him. Add that to his immoral choices when fighting crime, and it's pretty much impossible to sympathize with him. And I know people say Otto's a complex character, but to me, he's like a middle school bully; he wants love and attention, but lashes out at everything and everyone so much, he never gets it.

    And if you ask me, that's why SSM fails as a redemption story. Otto still has so much of that ruthless behavior, at this rate he's never going to get it.
    Last edited by ComicFan1988; 12-27-2013 at 11:55 AM.

  3. #3
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    [Unfortunate Implication] Because Otto is considerably physically unattractive compared to the likes of Wolverine, Stark, Magneto, or Kaine (and of course, Peter whose body he took)

    A lot of it probably has to do with him taking Peter's body which you can tell, a lot of people consider absolutely unforgivable no matter what good he does and thus, irredeemable. Its not useless per say though, if Spock can survive with his character development intact.

    As is, its hard to say; you can't really tell if Spock's character will continue to learn, rehabilitate, and eventually redeem himself at some point. And then there's the opinion he shouldn't be allowed redemption. eh. Peter Parker didn't become an "indomitable moral pillar" in a day, but some people are in quite a hurry to have Peter back.
    Last edited by Pako; 12-27-2013 at 12:16 PM.

  4. #4

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    The fact that he is using his powers, abilities and intellect to ruin people's lives shows that he is nothing but a thief and cannot be redeemed - Horizon Labs, JJJ, etc. The only reason he is still fighting crime and the random act of a good-guy as Spider-Man is to make the public believe that the hero is still "doing good", and to allow himself to elevate with even more power. The complete opposite of what Peter stood for. Otto has no redeeming qualities as a hero, but the suit does. If he was to ditch the Spider clothes and start a new 'hero' with a different costume, the title would fall into obscurity. No-one cares about a redemption story for a guy like Otto.

  5. #5
    Spider of the Shadows Assassin Spider's Avatar
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    There have been moves in the past to make Otto a more sympathetic and potentially redeemable character. Before his death at Kaine's hands in the early part of the Clone Saga, Otto actually saved Peter from dying of a viral infection and admitted that fighting Peter all these years had instilled in Otto a deep respect and admiration for him, to the point of admitting that fighting Peter was the only thing that gave his life real meaning and purpose anymore. Almost right after that, Kaine killed him, and he was resurrected by Stunner and the Hand a few years later with no memory of having saved Peter's life or come to that realization of his deep admiration and respect for him. Then there was his appearance during J. Michael Straczynski's run on Amazing Spider-Man, with him reluctantly teaming up with Spider-Man to avenge himself against a con artist who'd duplicated his tentacles and made an armored suit with the stolen schematics, and Otto came to May's rescue just because of how fondly he remembered her, though he was still willing to let Peter die as a casualty.

    However, I think the "demonization" of Otto that you speak of goes back further than Dying Wish. Let's not forget that Dying Wish was preceded by a dying Otto Octavius deciding that his final legacy to the world was to be remembered as its greatest monster in an act of omnicide (killing pretty much all life on Earth, as opposed to specific subtypes of people). That's not something fans would be so easily inclined to forgive, and Dying Wish and the ensuing Superior Spider-Man arc just exacerbated that, particularly with the actions Otto committed trying to prove himself as a "superior" hero and man to Peter Parker, many of those actions spitting on the lessons Peter attempted to impart to him in his final moments. Thus, it feels to a lot of people like Peter died for nothing and even if/when he comes back, he's going to come back to a world not bettered but worsened by the actions Otto carried out in his name and wearing his face and costume. It's not something people can let go of that easily, and the sad thing is that every time we're teased with the possibility of Otto genuinely becoming a better person, it's ruined by the next brutal, ruthless, callous action he takes, proving that while his motives (and methods) may have changed, he still hasn't changed who he is at his core --- a selfish, arrogant egomaniacal narcissist who thinks he's better than everyone else. That's what's really stopping Otto from being redeemed in any sincere fashion.
    Back in black, the hunter is ready to claim his prey.

  6. #6
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    What he did to Blackout, no mater if he kidnapped Aunt May or not, put him beyond any kind of redemption or heroism, period.

  7. #7
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Blackout had it coming.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  8. #8

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    Let's see if I can be clear:

    Octopus is a monster and a demon at every level!!! No matter if he does something good, he's doing it after killing a good man and usurping his identity at every level!! This is what the Chameleon has done most of his life, but 100 times worse!! There's no redemption here!! Yeah, you can say he saved the life of that little girl back then... but that little girl wouldn't have ben in that situation if it wasn't for Octopus in the first place!!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Let's see if I can be clear:

    Octopus is a monster and a demon at every level!!! No matter if he does something good, he's doing it after killing a good man and usurping his identity at every level!! This is what the Chameleon has done most of his life, but 100 times worse!! There's no redemption here!! Yeah, you can say he saved the life of that little girl back then... but that little girl wouldn't have ben in that situation if it wasn't for Octopus in the first place!!
    A daily reminder that Doc Ock was brain damaged. And, at least in the real world, monsters are man-made, and not a congenital trait.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pako View Post
    A daily reminder that Doc Ock was brain damaged. And, at least in the real world, monsters are man-made, and not a congenital trait.
    Looks like you are forgeting something important. Monsters are man-made, but they can exist without the man. Men like Otto Octavius and Norman Osborn were already monsters before they became super-villains; they were greedy, arrogant and heartless when they wanted something, one way or another. Back then, they at least have their "human appearance to hide"; but once they became supervillains, the accidents released their real inner selves. Now they are monsters both inside and outside!!

    Octavius didn't have brain damage before becoming Octopus, and yet he was already a monster. Besides, he's now in Peter's brain and that is a brain without physical damage; and yet, he's acting like the monster he has been most of his life.

  11. #11

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    Calling Otto before becoming Doc Ock a monster is kinda farfetched. All he did was sell some military tech and be a bit of a dick.

  12. #12
    The Smart One Sardorim's Avatar
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    Eh. Because he punished Peter for what he did during OMD I would say that Otto is a True Hero and any bad he does matters not because he finally dished out justice against Peter.

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    I don't think Otto was ever shown to be a "monster" pre-brain damage in any of his origin story / plus retellings. Lumping Otto before the accident with Osborn together seems a bit much.

  14. #14
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardorim View Post
    Eh. Because he punished Peter for what he did during OMD I would say that Otto is a True Hero and any bad he does matters not because he finally dished out justice against Peter.
    Does that mean some folks will stop complaining when Petee returns? Their silly brand of justice served and all that?
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Superior Commenter View Post
    Calling Otto before becoming Doc Ock a monster is kinda farfetched. All he did was sell some military tech and be a bit of a dick.
    Take it with a grain of salt from Ursalink. He's the same guy who a while back expressed a desire to commit physical violence against Slott over Superior.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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