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  1. #91
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    I kinda want to know why we are debating the motivations of the faceless cannon fodder on either side.

    It matters what Nita and Namora think(have we even seen thier reunion on the page?)

    It matters what Andromeda thinks.

    We've all ready seen Shuri's take on the issue. After that, we are fresh out of named characters on either
    side that we can be reasonably expected to give a damn about.

    Before anybody brings up characters like Lord Vashti and N'Gassi, I said "reasonably expected".

    So what's the point either way?
    That's your opinion. Obviously, others ARE interested in how these countries are portrayed, as find it reasonable that a government official, like Vashti, or a Warlord like Krang, or a royal sorcerer like Abira, might have something to say about a war or Namor's stint as a Phoenix.

    And we haven't seen what Nita or Namora or Andromeda think about the war or how it affects them. Where's Tamara Rahn or Namor's second wife Marrina?

    For that matter, where are the Atlantean allies? The X-Men and Doom and Lemuria?
    Last edited by Rheged; 12-27-2013 at 02:01 PM.

  2. #92
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamorsTrident View Post
    Once again show me a panel where a citizen of Atlantis that isn't Namor killed anyone. Where is your proof that any Wakandan died at the hands of a non possessed Namor.


    How many times a character/characters have sat out for most of an event that makes perfect sense for them to be involved? Honestly, Atlantis is ignored almost all the time in things. Only time they seem to show up in the MU is when the title is staring Namor or when someone is harming them or in this case some reason to start a conflict to promote a character.


    And you would be wrong in your thinking . They are not an inherent "warrior race" they do not seek out confrontation for the sake of confrontation. If that were the case they would not have remained hidden for thousands of years. They would not have been able to make the leaps in technological and magical advances that they have made, and they certainly would not have held peace between themselves for all those years until the surface world began poisoning their oceans its filth. Maybe you should considered reading up some more on the history of the Atlanean culture and Namor, for it your solo reasoning why Atlantis join in this fight or any other is because they "like fighting" then it's not only a bias view point it is a wrong one.
    If you have a better perspective on why the Atlanteans chose to get involved in the invasion of Wakanda when they weren't needed, feel free to throw your 2 cents is.

    Because they didn't get involved when the Avengers invaded Utopia... even when the pillar was endangered. They didn't get involved when the X-Men were briefly in custody or on the run as fugitives. And they didn't get involved in the final assault on Utopia at the end of the story.

    Given the fact that they chose not to get involved in portions of the story that frankly directly effect them far more than the Invasion of Wakanda yeah... I part of me does think they wanted a piece of the action because they were board and wanted to fight. That frankly makes more sense to me than reasons revolving Hope or the defense of Utopia, since they didn't get involved in the least on those occasions even when they were likely only a few yards away off panel.

    And again it bears repeating that Namor states that this isn't his fight and they don't need to be there. I would suggest that if Namor believes there's no real obligation for them to be involved, your atypicaly Atlanean would care even less... hence them for the most part NOT being involved.

  3. #93
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    That's your opinion. Obviously, others ARE interested in how these countries are portrayed, as find it reasonable that a government official, like Vashti, or a Warlord like Krang, or a royal sorcerer like Abira, might have something to say about a war or Namor's stint as a Phoenix.

    And we haven't seen what Nita or Namora or Andromeda think about the war or how it affects them. Where's Tamara Rahn or Namor's second wife Marrina?

    For that matter, where are the Atlantean allies? The X-Men and Doom and Lemuria?
    I agree with you that we should see what the important characters in Atlantis think of the war.
    I just think that we don't have all that many of them about.

    Tamara Rahn and Marrina are in limbo. Krang was last seen in Joe Kelly's Vengeance miniseries.

    I have no idea who Abria is.

    My thing is that with only one book that isn't moving all that fast as it is, the last thing the N.A. book needs is more filler supporting castmembers.

  4. #94
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    I agree with you that we should see what the important characters in Atlantis think of the war.
    I just think that we don't have all that many of them about.

    Tamara Rahn and Marrina are in limbo. Krang was last seen in Joe Kelly's Vengeance miniseries.

    I have no idea who Abria is.

    My thing is that with only one book that isn't moving all that fast as it is, the last thing the N.A. book needs is more filler supporting castmembers.
    I agree in part, which is why I can't believe Hickman is wasting pages on this alternate Illuminati, featuring TWO more Black Panthers. Which is my point. Instead of them, how about Krang or Namora? Instead of them how about Clea? But no, instead we get MORE Wakandans. WTF? EVERY supporting character in this book is Wakandan. The book isn't moving fast, because Hickman is spending so much time with the Wakandans, SHOWING how everything effects T'challa. Or building up Black Swan.

    Even if we restrict it to the few you named, Nita, Namora and Andromeda, that's three that simply have not appeared. For god's sake, two of Thanos' thugs got more pages from their PoV than the Atlanteans.

    Marrina was in the last Alpha Flight book. Krang was last seen in Namor's ongoing (helping Namor of all things), along with Abira. Tamara Rahn has been missing since right before Civil War.
    Last edited by Rheged; 12-27-2013 at 03:14 PM.

  5. #95
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Hmm some good points, more focus on politics amongst various kingdoms would be nice. A Game of Thrones Style book would be quite nice alas focus on politics amongst all are not really the point of this book besides Wakanda, Atlantis and maybe Latveria when Doom shows up. Although Namor should have one of his supporting cast getting roughly equivalent panel time to Shuri. Although I don't have a problem with 616 Wakanda getting panel time but a mirror fight while rather inevitable does not excite me much. Also Beast is boring me, way too much of a follower. Its not that he wont do bad things and has to be pushed to do it, its just he will whine too much about it.
    Last edited by JaggedFel; 12-27-2013 at 03:17 PM.
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  6. #96
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamorsTrident View Post
    ....The Wakanda's were literally back up and running in what seemed like days in comic time. In fact looking back at the panel it only seemed like a small section of the city was even hit.
    I attribute that to the writers, more or less

    idk Genosha as a hollowed out mess was kind of ehh story wise, and I don't think wakanda in shambles would work as well either you know
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  7. #97
    Senior Member UltimateTy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    I agree in part, which is why I can't believe Hickman is wasting pages on this alternate Illuminati, featuring TWO more Black Panthers. Which is my point. Instead of them, how about Krang or Namora? Instead of them how about Clea? But no, instead we get MORE Wakandans. WTF? EVERY supporting character in this book is Wakandan. The book isn't moving fast, because Hickman is spending so much time with the Wakandans, SHOWING how everything effects T'challa. Or building up Black Swan.

    Even if we restrict it to the few you named, Nita, Namora and Andromeda, that's three that simply have not appeared. For god's sake, two of Thanos' thugs got more pages from their PoV than the Atlanteans.

    Marrina was in the last Alpha Flight book. Krang was last seen in Namor's ongoing (helping Namor of all things), along with Abira. Tamara Rahn has been missing since right before Civil War.
    The alternate illuminati also has Reed Richards, Tony and Black Bolt so why are you complaining about the inclusion of the black panthers?

    Maximus has shown up in this book just as much as Shuri so your supporting cast point is false. Shuri is the only Black Panther supporting character that shows up in the book
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  8. #98
    Senior Member NamorsTrident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If you have a better perspective on why the Atlanteans chose to get involved in the invasion of Wakanda when they weren't needed, feel free to throw your 2 cents is.
    I have listed reasons why they were involved serval times in talking to you. Like I said I might as well repost everything I have stated all over again because we were running in circles until now. Your argument to the Atlaneans being a war type people is however wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Because they didn't get involved when the Avengers invaded Utopia... even when the pillar was endangered.
    Wow, right there is reason that they might believe that they too would be endanger and yet you continue to claim they had nothing at stake. ::rolls eyes::

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    They didn't get involved when the X-Men were briefly in custody or on the run as fugitives. And they didn't get involved in the final assault on Utopia at the end of the story.
    Given the fact that they chose not to get involved in portions of the story that frankly directly effect them far more than the Invasion of Wakanda yeah... I part of me does think they wanted a piece of the action because they were board and wanted to fight. That frankly makes more sense to me than reasons revolving Hope or the defense of Utopia, since they didn't get involved in the least on those occasions even when they were likely only a few yards away off panel.
    Once again how many times have writers left characters out who should be there in events? Same story here. The writers had to put the Atlaneans in there somewhere and they chose the invasion of Wakanda to be the place. With a cast that large it would be fairly difficult to also included a bunch of nameless blue people in the mix too.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And again it bears repeating that Namor states that this isn't his fight and they don't need to be there. I would suggest that if Namor believes there's no real obligation for them to be involved, your atypicaly Atlanean would care even less... hence them for the most part NOT being involved.
    Your also reading that statement out of context to an extant. Namor was monologging in his head as to why he stands with the mutants. Namor goes on to say that even though this is not his "fight" ,due to no one considers him a mutant even though he is one, is because there are those who would side with the many against the few and he would never be amongst them. In that statement it is Namor way of saying that it was in fact his fight. Just as he could probably stayed out of WWII but it was in fact his fight due to the few being against the many. Because at any point in time his people could, with their numbers reduce as they are, could also be in opposition with the many and he may need the mutants to stand with him. Namor made a pact with the mutants that included Atlantis, both their homes were endanger due to this conflict so at some point they as a people they had to act. The fact that they got their orders from a world destroying entity made it so they couldn't refuse.
    Last edited by NamorsTrident; 12-27-2013 at 04:31 PM.

  9. #99

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    This debate just makes me realize how stupid AvX was all over again. The Lil' X-men, Lil' Avengers issue where AvX is about Cap and Cyclops fighting over a teddy bear had far more justified reasoning for a conflict.

    I think Hickman made a mistake with how Wakanda so easily destroyed what IIRC was Atlantis? Wakanda is just so over the top powerful sometimes I want to see them taken down a peg or two.

  10. #100

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    I wanna see the two teams almost get friendly with each other, then Namor and Magneto start a fight.
    A great story is simple: never break character.

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  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sciborg View Post
    This debate just makes me realize how stupid AvX was all over again. The Lil' X-men, Lil' Avengers issue where AvX is about Cap and Cyclops fighting over a teddy bear had far more justified reasoning for a conflict.

    I think Hickman made a mistake with how Wakanda so easily destroyed what IIRC was Atlantis? Wakanda is just so over the top powerful sometimes I want to see them taken down a peg or two.
    I don't understand how Atlantis, which spans 3/4 of the planet, got concentrated down to one little village that be destroyed by a single tiny nation. There are 7 billion people on dry land; would it not be reasonable to assume there are billions more Atlanteans? How did little Wakanda destroy them all? It's like saying the surface world has been destroyed because of the Chicago Fire.
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  12. #102
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sciborg View Post
    This debate just makes me realize how stupid AvX was all over again. The Lil' X-men, Lil' Avengers issue where AvX is about Cap and Cyclops fighting over a teddy bear had far more justified reasoning for a conflict.

    I think Hickman made a mistake with how Wakanda so easily destroyed what IIRC was Atlantis
    ? Wakanda is just so over the top powerful sometimes I want to see them taken down a peg or two.
    Well, you aren't going to get any argument from me there. But again, given he did NOTHING with Atlantis or the Atlanteans, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

    Yep, AvX had more than it's fair share of character assassinations.



    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious View Post
    I wanna see the two teams almost get friendly with each other, then Namor and Magneto start a fight.
    LOL! I think there was something similar in the What If? AvX.

    I wouldn't mind alt-Magneto joining the 616 Illuminati, if Hickman can't have 616 Magneto.

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sciborg View Post
    This debate just makes me realize how stupid AvX was all over again. The Lil' X-men, Lil' Avengers issue where AvX is about Cap and Cyclops fighting over a teddy bear had far more justified reasoning for a conflict.

    I think Hickman made a mistake with how Wakanda so easily destroyed what IIRC was Atlantis? Wakanda is just so over the top powerful sometimes I want to see them taken down a peg or two.





    Yeah..right ...we dont want people thinking a bunch of africans could ever be that powerful. Keep in mind they didnt take over the earth, they just gave another nation a facelift in like fashion.
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  14. #104
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saucemaster View Post
    I don't understand how Atlantis, which spans 3/4 of the planet, got concentrated down to one little village that be destroyed by a single tiny nation. There are 7 billion people on dry land; would it not be reasonable to assume there are billions more Atlanteans? How did little Wakanda destroy them all? It's like saying the surface world has been destroyed because of the Chicago Fire.

    I don't think it was stated that the Wakandans were entirely successful in their genocide. There were survivors in Infinity. Plus, the Atlanteans don't live on every bit of the ocean floor. Traditionally, there's been a capital city.

    That said, Hickman ignored Oceanus, Lemuria, assorted colonies and outposts. He also ignored the Fifth Column Namor sent out after Sub-Mariner Revolution. He also ignored the idea that this Atlantis was one that a Phoenix built -- a Phoenix that already had encountered an invasion by surface men.
    Last edited by Rheged; 12-27-2013 at 04:57 PM.

  15. #105
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dkrook View Post
    Yeah..right ...we dont want people thinking a bunch of africans could ever be that powerful. Keep in mind they didnt take over the earth, they just gave another nation a facelift in like fashion.
    Hardly. We know Namor's wave killed about 7000, IIRC, and did not completely destroy Wakanda. That's not the case with Wakandan attack.

    Secondly, the Wakandans have NOT taken over the earth, but the Atlanteans have. In their first invasion they took over most the major cities of the air breathers. That is NOT a country that should have been completely curbstomped in such a fashion.

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