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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assassin Spider View Post
    I think a big part of the issue is that you can't have one of your comics company's major franchises be rooted in a super-powered allegory for governmental oppression, exploitation, and disenfranchisement of minority subcultures and communities and then have as your top hero someone who represents, at least in terms of the colors and iconography he wears, that same oppressive, exploitative government that disenfranchises people who don't fit into a certain norm or standard. It also doesn't "help" that Captain America is a blond, blue-eyed white male presented (for in-story reasons) as the pinnacle of potential human capability both physically and mentally, which does pose some unfortunate subtext about the perception and view of minorities and women juxtaposed with this image of a blond, blue-eyed white male clad in the colors of the American flag as the ultimate in human ability. To be fair, since the 60s and the fallout from the Vietnam War and Watergate in terms of its effect on Americans' faith in their government, Marvel writers have been steadily moving Captain America away from that jingoistic, simplistically "patriotic" representation and mentality, using his character to explore what it really means to be American and what America really stands for, if it stands for anything at all. It's just a major sticking point for a lot of people, particularly people who are X-Men fans, that he still visually represents a nation that in-story has committed hideously fascistic actions toward mutants and others perceived as "not really human" and his actions in the Avengers Vs. X-Men crossover, however Marvel intended them, have just exacerbated that contempt for Captain America.
    I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. There is nothing about Steve Rogers being blond-haired and blue eyed that disqualifies him as being a proper representation of human potential.

    You're looking at the issue through the lens of the modern PC movement that has taught just about everyone to hate "white people" as the source of every ill and injustice to ever exist on Earth, which is patent nonsense.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Point. But it was retconned for the AvX story. The Phoenix was portrayed again as the corruptive force it was originally concieved to be. It was written, in that story, to be this corruptive influence.
    They didn't retcon anything...they ignored the issue. The PF (which isn't supposed to be physically manifest directly in any form on this plane simply shows up and everyone starts running around shouting "Oh NoEs! The Phoenix is coming! We must kill it or it will kill us all!"

    That's not a retcon. That's the result of Joey's continuity allergy (along with virtually everything else that's screwed up since he got in control if not before).

  3. #483
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDemon View Post
    That was in Excalibur #61. And it was Galactus that pointed out to the Phoenix (who was in control at the time, not Rachel) that she was sustaining her conscious presence on the material level by drawing from the energy of "life unborn" (that is, she was shortening the life of the universe to remain).

    In #63 and 64, Rachel and the PF finally come to terms. After the PF begs forgiveness for the wrongs it has done to Rachel and Rachel forgives her, the PF says (and I'm quoting directly):

    "You can never be as you were. All I have become you are too. My essence is binded to your spirit. When I depart this plane of existence, the burden of power will be yours."

    Rachel asks:

    "Why can't you retain the consciousness you have evolved when you return to your natural state?"

    The PF then explains about her true, immortal nature as an unembodied essence, and the cost of retaining her sentience, before continuing:

    "Learn from my folly. Do not be seduced by the infinite potential of life unborn. Take only from my strength. [my emphasis] Accept its limitations.

    Rachel, you are reborn from the ashes of defeat as the one true Phoenix[/i] [again my emphasis] [/i]The past is forever gone. Cherish your future. Farewell, Phoenix."[/I]




    Everything since that issue has been an unexplained abberration, and absolutely the events of "A vs X" are UNSUPPORTABLE given this canon datapoint.
    Really, I think every major appearance of the Phoenix has been a retcon though. From it's initial appearance onward, it's changed a great deal in nature and AvX is just another example of that. Either way, the point being that the current AvX version is the one we have right now at least until someone decides to retcon that.

    What you're doing is essentially cherry picking which retcons you like and disregarding the ones you don't. But as Phoenix is a fictional character that marvel can do whatever the hell they want with, it's the present version which is the "right" one. That's just how fictional comics works. Phoenix is what marvel says it is until marvel itself decides to change that.
    Last edited by XPac; 12-27-2013 at 07:38 AM.

  4. #484
    Latverian Tourism Bureau Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDemon View Post
    They didn't retcon anything...they ignored the issue. The PF (which isn't supposed to be physically manifest directly in any form on this plane simply shows up and everyone starts running around shouting "Oh NoEs! The Phoenix is coming! We must kill it or it will kill us all!"

    That's not a retcon. That's the result of Joey's continuity allergy (along with virtually everything else that's screwed up since he got in control if not before).
    Why do you keep bringing up Joe Quesada when Axel Alonso has been EIC for a couple of years? And we've seen the Phoenix force manifest before in the form of the firey bird long before Joe Q even. It's perhaps not a physical form but artists have certainly used that visual quite a lot as its avatar going back to the beginning.

    BTW, who wrote that Excalibur story with the kindly Phoenix? That one seems like the aberration from the original
    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 12-27-2013 at 07:52 AM.
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  5. #485
    Comic Book Guy Jack Flag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    That's part of a bigger problem. Print media as a whole (newspapers, magazines, etc) is a dying medium in the burgeoning electronic/internet age. I'm not sure it'll ever die completely, but I don't see it ever growing again either.
    I don't see comic book reading growing in the digital age either to be honest - at least the superhero kind but really all kinds of comics are not being read here and it is turning cultural that no one reads it seems.

  6. #486
    Comic Book Guy Jack Flag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    You can't write a long running serial without retcons, especially if it's being done by multiple writers who are often not on the same page about what to do. Retcons can't be abused of course, but they're absolutely necessary to keep comics readable.

    I don't disagree but it seems this retcon is being done for a recent story line even though it is not really that recent.

  7. #487

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    HoM happened 10 years ago.

    Retcons are needed at times for stories that were just horribly thought out.

    And ruins the potential of a character.
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  8. #488
    Comic Book Guy Jack Flag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assassin Spider View Post
    I think a big part of the issue is that you can't have one of your comics company's major franchises be rooted in a super-powered allegory for governmental oppression, exploitation, and disenfranchisement of minority subcultures and communities and then have as your top hero someone who represents, at least in terms of the colors and iconography he wears, that same oppressive, exploitative government that disenfranchises people who don't fit into a certain norm or standard. It also doesn't "help" that Captain America is a blond, blue-eyed white male presented (for in-story reasons) as the pinnacle of potential human capability both physically and mentally, which does pose some unfortunate subtext about the perception and view of minorities and women juxtaposed with this image of a blond, blue-eyed white male clad in the colors of the American flag as the ultimate in human ability. To be fair, since the 60s and the fallout from the Vietnam War and Watergate in terms of its effect on Americans' faith in their government, Marvel writers have been steadily moving Captain America away from that jingoistic, simplistically "patriotic" representation and mentality, using his character to explore what it really means to be American and what America really stands for, if it stands for anything at all. It's just a major sticking point for a lot of people, particularly people who are X-Men fans, that he still visually represents a nation that in-story has committed hideously fascistic actions toward mutants and others perceived as "not really human" and his actions in the Avengers Vs. X-Men crossover, however Marvel intended them, have just exacerbated that contempt for Captain America.
    That is bullshit. Captain America was represented as a person who was not the pinnacle of human perfection before the super soldier serum - if anything being blue eyed and blond haired would mean those types are represented as being born weak and needing a drug boost to get them to peak physical strength. Also, let us remember this character was written by Brooklyn Jews before the USA got involved in fighting the Nazis as a tool to fight back against the oppression their people felt.

    I want to say that this animosity to Captain America by comic book readers I think comes from the Mutant book readers who are being shunted aside by Marvel because they don't want to overly promote a X book when parent Disney does not own the movie rights. The X book readers have always been a spoiled bunch who read stories that took place in their own isolated universe to the point they ran out of stories and made the Danger Room a villain.
    Last edited by Jack Flag; 12-27-2013 at 09:24 AM.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonspider89 View Post
    HoM happened 10 years ago.

    Retcons are needed at times for stories that were just horribly thought out.

    And ruins the potential of a character.
    House of M was done in part because Marvel wanted the movie rights for Mutants to run out so they reduced the importance of the X books until the studio contract returns back to Marvel. Marvel was desperate for cash back then and sold off the movie rights for pennies. Marvel gets almost zero residuals from the movie rights they sold off.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDemon View Post
    I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. There is nothing about Steve Rogers being blond-haired and blue eyed that disqualifies him as being a proper representation of human potential.

    You're looking at the issue through the lens of the modern PC movement that has taught just about everyone to hate "white people" as the source of every ill and injustice to ever exist on Earth, which is patent nonsense.

    I think it has to do with X-book readers having to take second banana billing and not liking it in the post Disney era until the movie rights revert back to Marvel from non Disney studios.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDemon View Post
    I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. There is nothing about Steve Rogers being blond-haired and blue eyed that disqualifies him as being a proper representation of human potential.

    You're looking at the issue through the lens of the modern PC movement that has taught just about everyone to hate "white people" as the source of every ill and injustice to ever exist on Earth, which is patent nonsense.


  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDemon View Post
    You're looking at the issue through the lens of the modern PC movement that has taught just about everyone to hate "white people" as the source of every ill and injustice to ever exist on Earth, which is patent nonsense.
    I don't think teaching kids to hate white people would be very PC at all. And besides even if that were happening it isn't working at all. Most people probably still equate "whiteness" with success and try to emulate them even when it wouldn't make sense to do so.

  13. #493
    Super Amalgamated! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I don't think teaching kids to hate white people would be very PC at all.
    Straight White Males are the only people that it IS politically correct to hate. Everything else is gets taken as gay bashing, sexism, or racism.
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  14. #494
    Senior Member Booshman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Straight White Males are the only people that it IS politically correct to hate. Everything else is gets taken as gay bashing, sexism, or racism.
    I think you mean "the rich", religious bigots, and government officials. Not straight white males.
    Last edited by Booshman; 12-27-2013 at 12:04 PM.

  15. #495
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    Well, good.
    Now we're onto "What's appropriate discrimination/hate/bigotry towards?".

    This should be far more productive.

    Jesus Christ.
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