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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Uh, you're forgetting Siracca ...
    Is there more than one Siracca? I mentioned Siracca, how is that forgetting her?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    ... After all, in order to be a true feminist, you have to associate with JUST women, right?
    That is one very weak strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    ... Whereas, the Diana in Soule's book can't talk about ANYTHING except for her relationship with her new boyfriend.
    Like I said, I have the same general complaint, but to say that Soule's Diana can't talk about anything other than Clark is factually untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous View Post
    It only doesn't concern her because Azzarello wrote it so it doesn't concern her. In previous versions, Aphrodite was the primary patron of the Amazons. You'd think having the Amazons wiped out would spark some kind of reaction from her, but she doesn't appear to give a crap because Azzarello cut out that relationship between her and Diana's people. In this case, he put his own story above an important part of the mythos.
    Well said, SiegePerilous.

    Azzarello is only cut off because he chose to alter these characters and cut them off. Aphrodite doesn't care because Azzarello wants her that way. Artemis is no more than a goon because Azzarello wants her that way. Did Hermes need* to ask for Eros' help instead of Aphrodite's when in comes to access to the forge?


    * One may argue he needs the guns, but that's plot-based. I don't see why Hermes would know the plot. ;)
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-24-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Iirc, Azzarello said (paraphrasing) it was for people outside of comics. Which raises the questions, which people outside of comics? Why does Azzarello think/assume that "daughter of Zeus" is better than "daughter of Hippolyta"? Is this pandering? Has it actually worked?
    You're right, and here's the quotation:

    With Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, any really famous character, you can break their origins down into a sentence or two, and Wonder Woman didn’t have that. And the sentence or two is not for people who read comics; it’s for people outside of comics, in general popular culture. But now she is Zeus's daughter, and now it works. In a general pop-culture sense, it works. That’s something that everybody can get their head around.
    http://www.timeoutchicago.com/things...ello-interview

    If the so-called "pandering" is a mild bait-and-switch--interest people in a daughter of Zeus, and then give them one who defines herself as daughter of Hippolyta--that's OK with me. In fact, it's probably better than just preaching to the choir; if the book only targets readers who are already interested in stories of hero who defines herself by her maternal line, it won't have a chance of challenging anyone to start being interesting in stories of a hero who defines herself by her maternal line. If that's "pandering," than I guess Marston was "pandering" by presenting his crusader for peace look like the superheroes, knowing that this would lead people to expect more fist fights than non-violent problem-solving.

    In terms of sinking into the "general popular culture" perspective of Wonder Woman--so that when people on the street think "demigoddess who [something something something]" when they hear "Wonder Woman," the same way they might think "child orphaned by fun violence who goes on to avenge himself against crime" when they hear "Batman"--it would probably take more than two years. Changing the general perception of such a well-known character is an ambitious thing to try to do. And it might be an overreach. We'll see. meanwhile, i'm enjoying a take on the character that's new with also consistent with her key traits (compassionate, merciful, encouraging, liberating and son on).
    Last edited by slvn; 12-24-2013 at 10:34 AM.

  3. #123
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Firstly, let me say I am SO-OOO grateful Brian Azzarello is totally ignoring that Superman/Wonder Woman thing happening in the other comics. I think we should pin a MEDAL on him for it!

    I like also that his Diana isn't the doe-eyed Disney princess that Mr. Perez gave us, but a passionate, hot-blooded working woman, who's out there doing what she feels must be done. She is representing the Amazons and herself by kicking ass and taking names, instead of talking, at length [Phil Jimenez!], about how superior her Amazon ideals are to everyone else's. While I wish Azzarello's Diana had a little more reverence for her Amazon background ..and would like to see her get more action in her OWN comic [Azzarello!]...

    I like this new Wonder Woman, as she is.

    I disagree that Superman/Wonder Woman is an improvement on Azzarello's Diana. I look forward to the time, when Superman goes back to Lois Lane, and Sm+WW becomes another classic DC team-up comic, pairing two equals that should have been paired this way, DECADES ago.
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Many of your example had not been in Wonder Woman comics for quite some time before the reboot. In some cases, decades. Steve Trevor was essentially written out of Wonder Woman's world post-Crisis, getting married off to Etta Candy. Likewise, I Ching had been scarce since the 70s. Except for 52. Plus, it's amusing how you call Azzarello's run sexist, yet when given the chance, you reference I, Ching, a character introduced during a run on Wonder Woman that basically depowered Wonder Woman and made her I, Ching's lackey, as a good example of a supporting male character.

    I don't really have an opinion on I-Ching either way as I haven't read a lot of stories with him in them but he is a former male Wonder Woman character which is the reason I mentioned him. I will say that have absolutely no love for the de-powered white suit days of Wonder-less Woman.
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  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Obviously, I understand why the sidelining or "tarnishing" of utopian elements like Paradise Island and its goddesses is upsetting to some. I'm just explaining why it doesn't bother me--not trying to tell you you're wrong to be bothered. ...

    Again, I don't argue against the existence of an imbalance; I argue that it's purpose has been to show a strong female hero taking a stand in a mostly male world, like most of the great heroic tales of women, and I argue taht the imbalance is declining over time.
    First, I thank you for these comments; I feel we're somewhat more on a page of communicating.

    Second, your opinion is your opinion, personal preference as you say. I'm not really trying to convince you you're "wrong" (though you are ).

    Unlike you, I don't fully buy into the "female hero in a male world" excuse. For starters, WW was already a female hero in a male world before Azzarello went hog wild on his changes to the character and her world. Even in this continuity, she spent the past five years as the only female on an otherwise all male team. More importantly, look around the DCU, including the books featuring female leads, and tell me how many aren't largely defined by the men in their life.

    I cut creators a lot more slack when they create something of their own. Azzarello didn't here; WW was an existing character with her own existing world. So, why did WW need to be so largely surrounded and defined by men and have the women simultaneously reduced and/or removed? You say it's feminist to have a woman in a man's world. But is it feminist to only have females in a man's world to the point that you change one of the few characters that wasn't defined that way? Women helping women can't be feminist or what? Hermes can fight side by side with Diana, but Athena can't?

    You say trajectory is important. I agree, to a degree. Problem here is that we've had 2+ years of this now, and how long will that trajectory of which you speak last? Will he spend two+ years building up mom's side of the family? Two+ years building up her female allies among the gods such as he has for Hermes, Heph, even Hades?

    I'm not seeing anything close to a balance. I'm seeing a whole lot of male-centric changes and emphasis going on in the WW comic (no, that is not to say it's all male-centric). So, going back to Nyssane's simple statement - there's a lot of masculinization going on with Azzarello's WW.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Ceto. She showed up in Batwoman, before I ever started talking about her. Sadly, as I've admitted before, it seems unlikely to me now that she's ever going to show up in the solo book, so go ahead, take your shots. :) If course, I also don't see any new evidence that the Amazons' abandonment of their sons started so that Hera could have someone with whom to share her suffering--which was your preferred theory, right? But I don't think guessing that something is going to happen is the same as saying that something already has happened off panel.
    Ceto, you're right (my bad, sleepy time writing). I still like your idea. I don't care that you might not be right in a 'haha, you're wrong' sort of way. It is a very creative idea. I care that you might be wrong, because thus far, the comic doesn't have an equal or better idea on that. Similarly, I don't care if my idea is right; I expect Azzarello to come up with an equally good or even better idea (after all, he is the one getting paid for good ideas, right?).

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    About the sword thing--weren't you saying that using a sword more consistently makes Wonder Woman less feminine? I'm saying that I guess this is true by traditional standards of femininity, but I'm not sure why we'd want Wonder Woman to conform to those standards. I like a Wonder Woman who can and will use a sword but often prefers not to, and that's what we're getting in Azzarello's run.
    I'm all for a WW that can use a sword and use it well. But, imo, she's not a sword-first character. Check this issue, does she use her sword or lasso? For me, there hasn't been enough love for the lasso.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I'm actually surprised not to see you challenging Eric more on his praise for Soule's Wonder Woman. Not that you needed to--it just seems like something you'd disagree with.
    What would you like me to say? He likes it. Others do, too. I don't share their view, but I simply can't keep up with everyone that doesn't share my view. Far too many people are just plain wrong. ;)
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  6. #126
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    I think that most people know who Zeus is, ask somebody if they know who Hippolyta is, majority won't know. But majority will know who Zeus is. It doesn't have to do with sexism at all.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    You're right, and here's the quotation:


    http://www.timeoutchicago.com/things...ello-interview

    If the so-called "pandering" is a mild bait-and-switch--interest people in a daughter of Zeus, and then give them one who defines herself as daughter of Hippolyta--that's OK with me. In fact, it's probably better than just preaching to the choir; if the book only targets readers who are already interested in stories of hero who defines herself by her maternal line, it won't have a chance of challenging anyone to start being interesting in stories of a hero who defines herself by her maternal line. If that's "pandering," than I guess Marston was "pandering" by presenting his crusader for peace look like the superheroes, knowing that this would lead people to expect more fist fights than non-violent problem-solving.

    In terms of sinking into the "general popular culture" perspective of Wonder Woman--so that when people on the street think "demigoddess who [something something something]" when they hear "Wonder Woman," the same way they might think "child orphaned by fun violence who goes on to avenge himself against crime" when they hear "Batman"--it would probably take more than two years. Changing the general perception of such a well-known character is an ambitious thing to try to do. And it might be an overreach. We'll see. meanwhile, i'm enjoying a take on the character that's new with also consistent with her key traits (compassionate, merciful, encouraging, liberating and son on).
    Still trying to avoid the word "pandering," I see.

    You say it's a "mild bait-and-switch," is "bait" not a form of pandering? Would you agree that "mild" and "switch" are debatable, at least in terms of degree?

    Azzarello's Diana has said a few lines here and there still identifying herself as an Amazon, but where oh where has the narrative focus been throughout? Is Diana powerful because she of her mom's genes? Does Azzarello spend two years developing her mother's or father's side of the family?

    Now, I don't expect this one storyline to change the perception of the entire general populace (I suspect that tidbit has more to do with WB and movies). But how well has Azarello's "mild bait-and-switch" worked at DC? I mentioned earlier that Soule referenced both Diana's father and her training under Ares in SM/WW #1. You responded, iirc, that's all on Soule. While I agree that Azzarello can't control what other creators do, he does control what he does. Do you not agree that the set-up he created and emphasized, the "bait-and-switch" if you will, lends itself to identifying WW via her father and Ares?

    Now, with Diana going back home (if solicits can be believed) next issue, perhaps will get some more out of mom's side of the family tree. But for now, I don't see a whole lot of "switch" going on.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-24-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    I think that most people know who Zeus is, ask somebody if they know who Hippolyta is, majority won't know. But majority will know who Zeus is. It doesn't have to do with sexism at all.
    Yes, people know Zeus. 'Child of Zeus' is a far cry from an original idea. While people may not know Hippolyta as well, they do know Amazon.

    If there's no male-centric thinking involved here, then why define her by her father at all? We don't have enough superheroes on the big screen that emphasize the father over the mother already?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  9. #129
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Yes, people know Zeus. 'Child of Zeus' is a far cry from an original idea. While people may not know Hippolyta as well, they do know Amazon.

    If there's no male-centric thinking involved here, then why define her by her father at all? We don't have enough superheroes on the big screen that emphasize the father over the mother already?
    well she still can be a Amazon and daughter of zeus,no? I think the problem is that society prefer to define women in relation to fathers, husbands. She still a amazon, daughter of Hippolyta. Having a father shouldn't negate the rest or define her.

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    well she still can be a Amazon and daughter of zeus,no? I think the problem is that society prefer to define women in relation to fathers, husbands. She still a amazon, daughter of Hippolyta. Having a father shouldn't negate the rest or define her.
    Of course she can be both. But where's the story emphasis? On both? Azzarello doesn't simply give her a father, he gives her a father that he knows will overshadow her mother and does so in a story that spends the vast majority of it's time on dad's side of the family. And he doesn't stop there either.

    He gives her a male mentor, also greater than the female teachers, and the story has had her spend more time with Ares than her own mother. Mom and the Amazons got removed very early on (because removing the Amazons is such an original idea for WW?) and trampled into the dirt. Then a brother shows up. A number of male gods willing to help out along the way. But not a single helpful goddess? None? The only females around WW are damsels in distress or antagonists?

    All this focus on the men around WW, and the de-emphasis of the females, wasn't on done purpose?

    Eta- For the record, I am not saying any (seemingly/debatable?) male-centric decisions made for WW make Azzarello into a sexist pig or whatever. Nor am I saying that anyone who likes the story as is is "wrong" to do so. Here, I'm simply advocating that when someone says something along the lines of "the WW story has some masculinization going on," there's merit to that point of view.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-24-2013 at 12:24 PM.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    While people may not know Hippolyta as well, they do know Amazon.
    Most people will think of a huge online retaile or a huge river in South-America before they think of half-naked women with swords and Xena.
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  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Most people will think of a huge online retaile or a huge river in South-America before they think of half-naked women with swords and Xena.
    So? Nobody knew anything about "Krypton" or "Gotham" before someone went and created it, right? Few movie goers cared about Iron Man until they went and made a good movie. Want to get WW out there, make a good movie. Zeus' name alone is only going to advertise the lack of creative thought that went into a "me-too" knock-off of an overused idea.

    That's not to say the entire story is lacking in creative thought, btw. Just that the "she's the daughter of Zeus" catch phrase summary screams "look how generic we are!"
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-24-2013 at 12:25 PM.
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  13. #133
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Of course she can be both. But where's the story emphasis? On both? Azzarello doesn't simply give her a father, he gives her a father that he knows will overshadow her mother and does so in a story that spends the vast majority of it's time on dad's side of the family. And he doesn't stop there either.

    He gives her a male mentor, also greater than the female teachers, and the story has had her spend more time with Ares than her own mother. Mom and the Amazons got removed very early on (because removing the Amazons is such an original idea for WW?) and trampled into the dirt. Then a brother shows up. A number of male gods willing to help out along the way. But not a single helpful goddess? None? The only females around WW are damsels in distress or antagonists?

    All this focus on the men around WW, and the de-emphasis of the females, wasn't on done purpose?
    And let's say that all this is true... that there's a male-centric focus. Then what? Does it take away from her?

    What is at the bottom of this? Is it resentment that she's no longer made of clay? That men are evil? That women are lesser creatures? A lot of these conversations sound as if they belong in 1975.

    'splain Lucy'

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    And let's say that all this is true... that there's a male-centric focus. Then what? Does it take away from her?

    What is at the bottom of this? Is it resentment that she's no longer made of clay? That men are evil? That women are lesser creatures? A lot of these conversations sound as if they belong in 1975.

    'splain Lucy'
    "That men are evil?" You think so little of me, Rob?

    Here's an bit from the NY Times Op-Ed, "Waiting for Wonder Woman:"

    "One of the most startling findings was that in group and crowd scenes in the G, PG and PG-13 movies that children watch, only 17 percent of the people are female. “In ratios, we haven’t gotten very far from Snow White and the seven dwarves,” Davis said on the phone. “We’re teaching kids from the very beginning that women take up less space.”

    She said that women have only about 28 percent of speaking parts in mainstream movies of all kinds and that the number has inched up less than 1 percent over the last two decades. At this rate, Davis said with a laugh, “We’ll achieve parity in 700 years. I want to be very clear. We are dedicated at my institute to cutting that number in half.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/op...wanted=1&_r=2&

    This isn't 1975, this is now. Just watch ALL of the superhero movies of the past decade, and then make a convincing argument that there are as many female role models as there are male. Do moms get as much love as dads on the superhero screen?

    The long and short of it is simple - it's not more male voices that are needed in Hollywood, video games, and comics. This is not anti-male. It's simply pro-female!
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-24-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Still trying to avoid the word "pandering," I see.

    You say it's a "mild bait-and-switch," is "bait" not a form of pandering?
    In my opinion, no, not if there's a "switch." Here's Google's featured definition of "pander": "gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire, need, or habit or a person with such a desire, etc.)." Maybe Azzarello's comic attracts a first look from people who desire their female heroes to define themselves by the men in their lives, but if they read the comic regularly, it doesn't ultimately "gratify or indulge" that desire. It gives them a Wonder Woman who consistently defines herslef as an Amazon and as Hippolyta's daughter, in spite of what she inherits from Zeus or learns from Ares. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with a woman, even a feminist icon, inheriting from a man or learning from a man, as long as she doesn't define herself as the man's or lose her independence, and as long as she embodies a mixture of traditionally masculine and traditionally female virtues.

    On the contrary, if there are powerful male influences in a woman's life, the continual choice to identify with the matrilineal is all the more dramatic, impressive and interesting. There's not much of a trick in identifying with your matrilineage if you don't have a patrilineage.

    I agree by the way, that there were always important male presences in the comic, and Azz didn't have to introduce a paternal family to create more interesting conflicts. I'm sure there's always more than one way to go when a creator takes over a comic. But I also don't think that in 2014, in the cultures of most of the book's readers, a female mythic figure needs to be without a father in order to be plausibly independent and not overshadowed by her father.
    Diana tells Siracca Zeus gave her nothing except family members like Siracca and Zola--and even though that's not strictly accurate if you could bllod inheritance as something "given," it's telling that she desn't see godly powers in comparison to her upbringing and family. She refuses, in issue 24, to take her place among the gods. In issue 2, she makes clear that the Olympian succession is unimportant to her compared to the woman she has befriended and has protected. She keeps her gody powers essentially under lock and key, using the cuffs, ot the annoyance of fans who want to see her cut loose and "kick azz." She shows more compassion and less procilivity than would be expected by a fans who was looking for a hypermasculine hero. She visits the Amazons when she needs help in protecting Zola; when she learns her true parentage, she pretty much ignores the "Zeus" part and is angry not to have known that she is blood of Hippolyta's blood; she expresses pride in her Amazons heritage in issue 8 and 10 and elsewhere. In short, I see plenty of "switch."

    Would you agree that "mild" and "switch" are debatable, at least in terms of degree?
    I suppose, but of course I think one side of that debate would be more supportable than the other.

    Azzarello's Diana has said a few lines here and there still identifying herself as an Amazon, but where oh where has the narrative focus been throughout? Is Diana powerful because she of her mom's genes? Does Azzarello spend two years developing her mother's or father's side of the family?
    I don't think we know the whole story of why she's so powerful yet; remember, Apollo notes in issue 13 or 14 that she's more powerful than any of the demigods or gods outside the Olympian 12. Why should she be capable of threatening the Olympian 12 when the likes of Hercules and Strife would not be so capable? What make her different from them? They have the same father. Could the difference have something to do with her mother? We'll see. But we probably won't see utnil the Amazons come back and the story moves towards it final culmination. It can't be long now.

    But even if the bulk of her power is a reuslt only of her father and not her mother, I care more about how a hero defines him- or herself than about "genes" define him or her. If a woman happen inherits her most exceptional genetic traits and talents from her father, does that mean she can't identify with her mother and foremothers? Does it mean she can't balance or integrate traditional masculine and traditionally feminine traits in her own person, as I believe a feminist hero should? I don't think it means that.

    Do you not agree that the set-up he created and emphasized, the "bait-and-switch" if you will, lends itself to identifying WW via her father and Ares?
    Yes, but only in the same way as Marston's "strength of Hercules, speed of Hercules "lent itself" to Kanigher's decision to have those powers be actual gifts from those gods, not just parallels. It was Kanigher's choice to use that "setup" in that way. Soule could just as easily have built on Azzarello's setup by having her say what Azzarello would have had her say--that she learned to fight from the best, the Amazons.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-24-2013 at 12:54 PM.

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