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  1. #721
    Junior Member bumblebecc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdiggs View Post
    Naomi's story is biased on several levels.
    What Scott admitted is that Naomi felt harassed by his actions even though that was far from his intention.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bdiggs View Post
    Scott realizes that sexual harassment isn't fun. He didn't consider is actions to be sexual harassment. He does acknowledge and feel remorse for his actions causing Naomi to feel sexually harassed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Megaharrison View Post
    Lobdell was bizarre and out of line here, but discouraging any kind discussion into what happened and simply expressing a desire to scream about how evil Scott is, how precious the victim was, and how comics book fans are so disgusting is silly. These are serious life-ruining accusations and every one needs to be heavily examined and not taken for automatic truth based on preconceived "embarrassment" about your own subculture. It's not victim blaming and it's not some nefarious scheme by the patriarchy, it's critical thinking. Obviously her claims are not to be dismissed, but At the same time blog stories that refuse to give names aren't to be treated as official record.

    Really I don't see the whole mass wave of sexism that supposedly exists in the comic and gaming community. Maybe among stupid 12 year olds on Xbox in the latter but it is indeed within realistic expectations of kids that age to be immature twats. Otherwise it's people complaining about sexism and having some sort of meltdown over a video game character designed with big breasts.

    Also movie of takes himself way too seriously. He's in some sort of moral social justice outrage every other week. Take a page from Half in the Bag or even professional critics like Mark Kermode on how to do Internet reviews. He'll even nostalgia critic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I still don't get how saying the lady should have spoke up is blaming the victim. No one else is touched by this. Not you. Not me. This happened to her from that one person. If any one of you had actually been there, would you would have done the same as apparently this entire audience did, including her own husband, and allow it to continue? I can't imagine a situation where I would wait for someone to stop someone from harming me in some way physically or mentally. I just don't understand this idea that its okay to allow yourself to be subjected to someone else's wishes. I certainly wouldn't teach my children this. If anything, its a great example of what happens if you don't speak up. I don't see how its any different than if she had heard an unattended briefcase ticking on a plane and just blogged about how she was hoping someone would notice her eye movements towards it. She had to power to do something and just chose not to.

    OK lets run through this one one time.

    1. No one is to blame for this except Lobdell, HE chose to do this, HE persisted, HE was in the wrong.


    2. NO ONE has contradicted her account, Lobdell has issued a lame apology but at no point has he contradicted what she states he did.
    He many not consider it to have been harassment, though i haven't seen HIM state that... it was harassment however, by the definition of the term, was intrusive he was gross, he was offensive, he was humiliating, he was racially insensitive. All these points are clear in her blog, and he has not denied them, her account is a clear expression of what he did and how she felt it does NOT make suggestions of rape despite suggestions to the contrary by some of his defenders.
    Attempts to say she shouldn't have felt that way etc, are a part of a mindset that still sees a world where men know what is best for us better than we do ourselves... its hard to see how people cannot understand that it is those kind of attitudes which are part of the problem. Attempts also to dismiss her as 'biased' are victim blaming. This was HIS doing, not hers.


    3. She did not even name him, she merely highlighted what was an unpleasant experience for her. HE outed himself, which actually gains him a little credit compared with some of the people in this thread


    4. She is not raging for his job, no one is suggesting he be lynched... despite what some of his supporters may be trying to suggest. This is merely highlighting an aspect of the comics book culture which is ALSO present in society as a whole.


    5. This is NOT specific to comics culture, or gaming culture or golfing culture or ANY culture, this is a general issue. YES progress has been made but there is still a long way to go, and unless you have experienced this kind of marginalisation on a very regular basis then frankly your understanding is likely to be limited. This is why it NEEDs to be talked about. It is why i am very glad she spoke out.


    6. The reason people don't see the sexism is because its so intrinsic to what people expect in the language, in the aesthetic, because many are viewing from the privileged position. When one views it from the receiving end, its clear.


    7. Yes, the situation is better than in other parts of the world, and better than in the past, but this kind of humiliating tactic is NOT rare, it SHOULD be, or rather it should not exist at all, but it does, as does the patronisation and dismissal that has even been present on this thread.
    Those who are STILL complaining that she did not do enough at the moment are not understanding the cultural pressure to not cause trouble.
    As men you are used to being listened to, this is part of the privilege, it seems natural to those with privilege, that it has always been that way so what is the big deal?
    Its a big deal because it engenders a culture in which segments of the population, based on gender, on race, on sexuality... on anything one chooses, can be marginalised and dismissed. It feels even more egregious in a subculture such as ours here, because as an already somewhat mocked and marginalised group one could hope for greater understanding.

    We, thank g_d no longer 'belong' to men, our possession everything becoming theirs, but we are still dismissed far more regularly than people here seem to understand, and when one does speak up one is often ignored, mocked or attacked. Just look at how quickly i was dismissed as 'a little spitfire of angst and rage', (the subtext of which 'oh look at the little girl trying to be feisty and argue with men' was quite clear) and frankly this is tame compared with what one experiences elsewhere on a regular basis.

    One rapidly gets used to keeping one's head down, to not rocking the boat, to hoping things go away. Much like someone small and bookish might hope to slip underneath the notice of playground bullies. One only needs to look into society to see that those who object or are 'whistle blowers' are most commonly the ones who tend to suffer, ostracised, mocked, blamed and outcast (How many times did telling the teacher reduce the bullying?). It has been most uncharacteristic of me to be so outspoken, through experience i got very used to saying nothing, in the past few months, online at least, some of it has been able to come out.


    8. This is NOT an attack on men, this is NOT an attack on comics culture, this is not an attack on YOU... there is no reason to feel slighted, there is no reason to feel opposed, unless you see his attitudes in yourself... in which case i strongly suggest you think about that says about yourself.

    What this is, is a statement that certain types of behaviour, which were the norm in the past, are not acceptable, they are not an entitlement, they are not as the video says 'a part of the culture' they are a part of trying to hang on to privilege, a privilege which diminishes others, and that is never a positive thing.


    I don't think Lobdell will suffer any hardship through this, some mockery perhaps, but as has been stated before, most people who read comics won't know about it, and a lot of those who do won't care, and of that number who do, some will rally around him. People get away with this kind of behaviour all the time.
    One can hope though that he might learn to be more respectful of others in the future though.


    What it has done is to highlight attitudes that need to be considered and changed if things are going to improve... we have a lot to offer.
    Last edited by bumblebecc; 01-02-2014 at 03:03 AM.

  2. #722
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megaharrison View Post
    Lobdell was bizarre and out of line here, but discouraging any kind discussion into what happened and simply expressing a desire to scream about how evil Scott is, how precious the victim was, and how comics book fans are so disgusting is silly.
    There's a discussion happening. Suggesting the woman here was 'precious' is just victim blaming, and those blaming her are missing the point for a variety of reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Megaharrison View Post
    These are serious life-ruining accusations and every one needs to be heavily examined and not taken for automatic truth based on preconceived "embarrassment" about your own subculture. It's not victim blaming and it's not some nefarious scheme by the patriarchy, it's critical thinking. Obviously her claims are not to be dismissed, but At the same time blog stories that refuse to give names aren't to be treated as official record.
    Did you read how Lobdell's name came into this? Do you get that he admitted it?

    This isn't a court of law because Lobdell didn't break a law. He did admit he was in the wrong. It's his problem.

    There hasn't been a jot of 'critical thinking' from people defending Lobdell and especially his behaviour, but there has been a mixture of stupidity, misogyny and the sort of arrogant male privilege that creates these problems in the first place.

    Let me make the point again: There is no way to defend Lobdell without making your defence one of defending sexual harassment. It's that painfully simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Megaharrison View Post
    Really I don't see the whole mass wave of sexism that supposedly exists in the comic and gaming community. Maybe among stupid 12 year olds on Xbox in the latter but it is indeed within realistic expectations of kids that age to be immature twats. Otherwise it's people complaining about sexism and having some sort of meltdown over a video game character designed with big breasts.
    I'm guessing you're a bloke who's not paid attention to society at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Megaharrison View Post
    Also movie of takes himself way too seriously. He's in some sort of moral social justice outrage every other week. Take a page from Half in the Bag or even professional critics like Mark Kermode on how to do Internet reviews. He'll even nostalgia critic.
    What on earth are you talking about?

  3. #723
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumblebecc View Post
    This is NOT an attack on men, this is NOT an attack on comics culture, this is not an attack on YOU
    Seriously. The only way to perceive this as a threat to men in general or to "you," as an individual is if you really think you have a right or justification to say super messed up stuff to someone you just met in a professional and public setting without being called on it and that this right/justification is being taken away.

    In which case, the "you" feeling threatened has a lot more problems than whether that "right" is being taken away.

    "Oh, dear! In this scary new world, men might not be able to say judgmental, invasive things without being called on it! How will society ever survive?"

  4. #724
    Junior Member bumblebecc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdiggs View Post
    I don't see how its any different than if she had heard an unattended briefcase ticking on a plane and just blogged about how she was hoping someone would notice her eye movements towards it. She had to power to do something and just chose not to.
    This really is an appalling false equivalency. Just appalling.

  5. #725
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumblebecc View Post
    This really is an appalling false equivalency. Just appalling.
    But, don't you see? It's just like that completely different situation!

  6. #726
    They call me Mr. Pip! the4thpip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    But, don't you see? It's just like that completely different situation!
    What. we are not talking about the time when Amanda Connor totally sexaully harassed Jimmy Palmiotti on an airplane while the audience and Amanda's other husband were distracted by the loud ticking of a bomb until Jimmy put an end to it by putting his foot down?
    My blog.

    We struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about; our very skins. It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given.
    - Desmond Tutu

    Getting married? Check http://www.fandgweddings.com/

  7. #727
    Junior Member bumblebecc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the4thpip View Post
    What. we are not talking about the time when Amanda Connor totally sexaully harassed Jimmy Palmiotti on an airplane while the audience and Amanda's other husband were distracted by the loud ticking of a bomb until Jimmy put an end to it by putting his foot down?
    THATS the one!

    Oh gosh i'm blind... so blind... how did i not see that shying away from harassment and bullying was exactly the same as abetting terrorism?

    Thank goodness there were real men here to show me and Naomi the error of our ways.

    [/sarcasm] just in case.


    *sigh
    seriously though, thank you Travis and Pip

  8. #728
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    As I've said before, if you cant post without resulting to calling each other names.... then you shouldnt post at all. I think the Mod staff has been more than fair with this. we've policed this thread since its start and some of you cannot refrain from insults. As such, Im closing this debate and we may open it later. For now the topic is finished and no new threads are permitted.

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