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  1. #91
    Gigantic Member ispacehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toreador View Post
    But it wouldn't have been shown with her robe still on.
    She wasn't wearing a robe when she answered the door. She was wearing a skirt and a blouse.

    Removing her clothes shows the wound in gory detail, and reduces her to a piece of meat.

    I'm would imagine the impact upon Commissioner Gordon's psyche might be greater, and it might make it harder for him to imagine that she might actually survive.

    Joker WAS trying to push him over the edge after all.
    Last edited by ispacehead; 12-05-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  2. #92
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabo61 View Post
    Anyone know if Alan Moore ran into any resistance from DC over publishing Killing Joke due to what happens to Barbara?
    It's been covered elsewhere, but it was something that had to be talked about and OKed at levels. Len Wein reportedly greenlit it to Moore with "Cripple the bitch," which is where that phrase, in relation to fridging and treatment of women (particularly Barbara Gordon) in comics comes from.

    Moore has stated he didn't think it'd be anything lasting, the same way his shooting of Black Canary didn't last forever or years later, Batman could be in and out of a wheelchair in a year, that sort of thing.

    DC commissioned another retirement for Batgirl, which Barbara Kesel wrote, before TKJ was released, but that may've been the moment they decided to fully commit to the damage Joker does to her in TKJ.

    Anyone know how long they actually worked on TKJ? I know it was, for that sort of thing, an unusually long time.

  3. #93
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostinFandom View Post
    The complaint of misogyny about TKJ are less about Barbara's injuries than about how little she matters as a person in the story. Shooting her is about her father and Batman. Even in her hospital bed recovering she doesn't do or say any more than cry.

    No shooting her wasn't about her father. They were both used to prove a point to Batman. Jim didn't matter either. What does Jim do other than scream and cry? The police commissioner was reduced to a helpless old man who could neither save his daughter or himself. Joker maimed Barbara physically and attempted to maim Jim mentally.

    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    She was fridged. Flat out. It doesn't make it misogynistic, but it is telling that the men in the story all have arcs, developments, elaborated stories, but the women are wives and daughters who prop up the men's stories. In the context of Moore's whole career, it's not a killing offense or anything, but in the context of DC productions it's par for the course.

    The anecdotal "cripple the bitch" from Len Wein is considerably more damning, I think, than anything in the comic.
    Babs had her stories, she wasn't introduced just so she could end up a victim to induce Bat's manpain. DC wanted to get more grimdark and they probably thought the character was too light. How long after the KJ did it take for them to fridge Jason Todd?
    Didio wanted to fridge Nightwing. How many Flashes got fridged? Blue Beetle got fridged. Martian Manhunter got fridged. Aquaman used to be such a hot mess that no one even knew if had been fridged or not. It's comics, people get fridged and unfridged, all the time. And I wouldn't put too much stock in the woman trashing one guy says to some other guy when they know no women are around, because that is typical douche male behavior.

  4. #94
    DC Comics Forum Moderator The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vil_Dee View Post
    Babs had her stories, she wasn't introduced just so she could end up a victim to induce Bat's manpain. DC wanted to get more grimdark and they probably thought the character was too light. How long after the KJ did it take for them to fridge Jason Todd?
    Didio wanted to fridge Nightwing. How many Flashes got fridged? Blue Beetle got fridged. Martian Manhunter got fridged. Aquaman used to be such a hot mess that no one even knew if had been fridged or not. It's comics, people get fridged and unfridged, all the time. And I wouldn't put too much stock in the woman trashing one guy says to some other guy when they know no women are around, because that is typical douche male behavior.
    Didio wanted to fridge Nightwing? Missed that one. That had to be something on the order of Bruce's death, because there was no way Dick would be permanently six feet under (well, as permanently as, say, Barry was for all those years )

    As for Babs, if DC just wanted to get rid of her and create a new Batgirl, I could have accepted that. Just give her a heroic sendoff and be done with it (or turn her into Oracle because, I don't know, she can't fight anymore due to medical reasons). IOW, there were other ways that older and newer fans could have gotten on board for a transition without leaving Barbara paralyzed and naked for Jim to agonize over.

    I know it's "only" comics, but over the years, attachments to certain characters and how they are treated are inevitable. Just wish editors and creators understood this more often than they appear to do in reality.
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  5. #95
    Power Corrupts Jabare's Avatar
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    Default New Controversy around the Killing Joke?!

    So I just came across this article:

    REVEALED: DC COMICS WAS TO HAVE FEATURED RAPE AND TORTURE OF BATGIRL



    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywo...ure-of-Batgirl


    the article is fine to click on but the link to the leaked page of original art work from the killing joke is NSFW.


    Now whether Joker did or didn't has kind of been a debated issue for a while. Many fans I've talked to choose to read it as it didn't happen, but I geuss you could interpret it either way. I tend to think it's pretty much implied in the panel. But putting that aside this article suggests that now the "rape" is clear.

    Thoughts?

    Here are some excerpts from the article:


    We now know the original comic was to have more explicitly shown Batgirl's battered body hinting that Joker had not only tortured but raped her.
    The page of original art for the book Batman: The Killing Joke was revealed in a Tweet by Gosh! Comics' Billy Hynes on December 1. It reveals the body of Barbara Gordon, the original Batgirl, in a highly sexualized, naked from the waist up pose.

    This was already a pretty controversial story line for a 1988 comic book, but the original art made the rape aspect of the story seem more explicit. Comics fans have for years debated over whether or not the Joker also raped Barbra Gordon, but the original art was nixed and the published art was far less sexually charged.

    I don't really see how this makes it clear Barbara was sexually assaulted anymore than the original comic, but maybe that is just me.

    Also this is really the only article I've read on this. Is anyone discussing this new Killing Joke image? (It's not really a completely new image just the original image from one of the pages before it was edited.)

    Is this image being blown out of proportion or does WARNER TODD HUSTON make a good point?


  6. #96
    Senior Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    There's already a thread about this.

    Breitbart kills brain cells.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    There's already a thread about this.

    Breitbart kills brain cells.
    Yeah, he may be dead, but his odor staggers on.

  8. #98
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Alan Moore isn't exactly known for his female characters.

    Almost every book he's done has some kind of rape in it. I can enjoy a large portion of his writing, but some of it is rough.

  9. #99
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    I knew when the book first came out this was the case. I like a lot of what he writes, but stuff like this disgusts me.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  10. #100
    Senior Member penguintruth's Avatar
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    Brietbart
    Now there's your problem.

    The new pictures don't prove an intent for rape.

    Regardless, I'm waiting for Bill O'Reilly do a spotlight piece on his show about how "the liberals raped Batgirl" or "The War on Batman-mas".
    The "Son of Batman" movie reminded me of the first reason I hated Grant Morrison's Batman run: Talia raped Batman and got away with it.

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  11. #101
    New Member Jokerlife's Avatar
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    Ok you can't portray an image to the story (judging a book by its cover). It has been a long standing question but some material is best kept a secret or up to the readers mind. That's the power of imagination.

  12. #102
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Yeah, typical Breitbart.

    There is just one difference between the original art and the version that saw print. One panel got cropped to cover up nudity. This changes nothing about the story because the art and text make it perfectly clear she's been stripped naked.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  13. #103

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    The published version suggests that she was shot in the abdomen and does not outright establish any sexual assault, but this image explicitly shows damage to her pelvic region. That is the main difference. There is still topless nudity present in the published version, just at more of a side angle.
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  14. #104
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    That article is uglier (and more pandering) than the unused artwork or the finished comic.

  15. #105
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispacehead View Post
    She wasn't wearing a robe when she answered the door. She was wearing a skirt and a blouse.

    Removing her clothes shows the wound in gory detail, and reduces her to a piece of meat.
    It doesn't show gory details, it shows a black bloodstain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brack360 View Post
    The published version suggests that she was shot in the abdomen and does not outright establish any sexual assault, but this image explicitly shows damage to her pelvic region. That is the main difference. There is still topless nudity present in the published version, just at more of a side angle.
    The published version also shows you exactly where she is shot a few pages back, when the Joker shoots her, and it's in the same as on the scensored panel. Which is not in the groin.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

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