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  1. #31
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinomune View Post
    It's not the past. It's the overexploited WWII. Darkseid/Apokolips > Hitler/nazis.
    "Overexploited WWII"?!? Dude, how young are you?

    I still respect that period of time . . . my Dad was in the army during the latter part of WWII.

    There is much that still needs to be remembered about the horrors that led to the war.
    Even today, there are still problems with neo-Nazis thinking they're superior and stuff.
    Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  2. #32
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_peterson View Post
    I'd disagree; these character are the same people that they were when they debuted in the Golden Age, more or less, but with tweaks to backstory, setting, design, ethnicity and specific powers. That's because they collapsed elements from legacy characters into them, design and power wise. Other than that, this Jay Garrick simply reads like a young Jay Garrick. This Alan Scott just reads like a young Alan Scott. What the evil army they fight looks like is one of the least important things about whether or not the core of the characters are present. I'd argue that the spirit of the characters is not only intact, but rejuvenated.

    And they ARE the next generation of Wonders, they just don't all directly resemble the first. Which is fresher, really, and more Earth 2 in that it's similar to the Power Girl/Huntress/Fury "new identity with ties to older heroes" model. The direct passing-of-the-torch would be nice, but the timeline simply hasn't progressed to that point yet. Which is the same as a WWII title would be.

    In my opinion, this is the closest any Earth 2 has been to its original concept since the first Crisis. The elder statesman heroes was a blip in their history, much as I loved Starman.
    I think you're full of it, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinomune View Post
    It's not the past. It's the overexploited WWII. Darkseid/Apokolips > Hitler/nazis.
    If you see Jack Kirby's Fourth World titles as a metaphor for World War Two, you're really missing the point.
    MY FAVOURITE FUNNIES NO. 15 featuring FIRST DAYS OF A "NEW LOOK"

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    Are there super-heroes on Downton Abbey?
    Someone ought to slap your snout with a rolled up newspaper. I'm really disappointed in you. The poster may have used a weak example, but the point was obvious. There are hundreds of popular concepts set in other periods and situations than early 21st century Earth. You know what the poster was trying to get across and yet you chose to take a cheap shot. Bad doggy.
    MY FAVOURITE FUNNIES NO. 15 featuring FIRST DAYS OF A "NEW LOOK"

  5. #35
    Junior Member Sk8maven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_peterson View Post
    Other than that, this Jay Garrick simply reads like a young Jay Garrick.
    Well, no, not really. The original Jay Garrick always had a very good idea who he was, where he was going, and what he was going to do when he got there. (He had a career path all taped out into chemistry/biochemistry, and becoming a superhero by accident wasn't part of his plans.) The NuEarth-2 version hasn't figured any of that out yet, and becoming a superhero by accident seems to be the only thing that's given him any purpose. I'd say he's actually based more on Wally West. Not that the Wally fans will appreciate that in the least!

    This Alan Scott just reads like a young Alan Scott.
    Well...closer than Jay. The original Alan Scott wasn't one to wallow in angst for any extended length of time - he'd get over it and move on. (Roy Thomas did some real damage to the character, as well as "character development".) And he'll never look right until he has at least an illusory green-flame cape (that he can turn on and off at will). I'd prefer a real cape, but too many people believe Edna Mode.
    Everything I state is JUST MY OPINION. Take what you like and leave the rest.

  6. #36

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    The only thing I dislike about Earth 2, is the Evil Superman. Sorry, at this point Evil Superman is a cliche.

    Need someone with Superman's powers, bring Powergirl back to Earth 2 - Then you'll have a team with some great female heroes - Powergirl, Huntress, Hawkgirl, Barda, Fury, Red Tornado, Aquawoman - possibly Crimson Avenger and Judo Master.

    I find it interesting, that everyone the dislikes the idea of a new Batman threatens to walk. I like all the question he raises. Like who is he, and why Mr. Miracle and Barda (Two New Gods) were the first to acknowledge he existed.

  7. #37
    FF purist-snob
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_peterson View Post
    In my opinion, this is the closest any Earth 2 has been to its original concept since the first Crisis. The elder statesman heroes was a blip in their history, much as I loved Starman.
    A blip? The JSA have been elder statesmen and inspirations for younger heroes for 35 years of their 73 year history. The other 38 years includes a 10 yr period when they weren't even in print. They've been portrayed as older heroes for 50 years. That's no blip, it's a major portion of their history.
    "Cant say it better than CaptCleghorn." - RolandJP

  8. #38
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by An Ear In The Fireplace View Post
    If you see Jack Kirby's Fourth World titles as a metaphor for World War Two, you're really missing the point.
    He's saying Darkseid and Apokolips are greater than Hitler and the Nazis. Which is of course absurd, as Darkseid and Apokolips do not exist and therefore never killed anyone, while Hitler and Nazi Germany certainly did exist and killed millions. Comparing any fictional villain to the real life evil that was Nazi Germany is tasteless.

    The other stuff about WW II being old hat and all....I just don't have the words for how insanely ignorant that is to say.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  9. #39
    Junior Member Captain Midnight's Avatar
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    I like Earth 2 & yet I still miss Earth two if I could, I would merge all the JSAs together. I like Earth 2 & Worlds' Finest just as much as All Star Squadron,Infinity Inc. and both JSA series that came out.
    The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I think you're full of it, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.
    Like reasonable adults, good sir! :)

    (That was not sarcastic... they REALLY need punctuation for that...)
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  11. #41
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by An Ear In The Fireplace View Post
    If you see Jack Kirby's Fourth World titles as a metaphor for World War Two, you're really missing the point.
    I think he means that the forces of Apokolips are being used as analogous to the Axis powers, which is correct. Sadly, the actual Kirby New Gods work seems to have been thrown out with the reboot. Just look at the new Darkseid origin. Tragic. But in the story of E2, the Apokoliptians are definitely meant to be an alien analogue for the Nazis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8maven View Post
    Well, no, not really. The original Jay Garrick always had a very good idea who he was, where he was going, and what he was going to do when he got there. (He had a career path all taped out into chemistry/biochemistry, and becoming a superhero by accident wasn't part of his plans.) The NuEarth-2 version hasn't figured any of that out yet, and becoming a superhero by accident seems to be the only thing that's given him any purpose. I'd say he's actually based more on Wally West. Not that the Wally fans will appreciate that in the least!

    Well...closer than Jay. The original Alan Scott wasn't one to wallow in angst for any extended length of time - he'd get over it and move on. (Roy Thomas did some real damage to the character, as well as "character development".) And he'll never look right until he has at least an illusory green-flame cape (that he can turn on and off at will). I'd prefer a real cape, but too many people believe Edna Mode.
    God, you're so right about the cape. Alan Scott needs a damn glorious Superman style cape! It would look amazing! (Plus, as a construct, none of the Edna Mode problems apply!)

    But to clarify, I was referring to the E2 Golden Agers being like aged-down versions of their elderly pre-Flashpoint counterparts, less so being like their original incarnations. Which is easy to think, but apparently convoluted to put into words. :P

    I'd also counter that the differences with the original Golden Age versions has more to do with how comics are written; characters are expected to have more to them nowadays straight away, as opposed to being kind of bland until the history builds enough to give them a voice. It's like the new Jay (who does have notes of Wally) is being set on the path to being the same confident man he was before, but he's still getting there. (Though he's been pretty awesomely confident-but-not-arrogant of late.) (And Alan Scott didn't exactly wallow- he threw one temper tantrum and then tried to solve a mystery. Which, as a newsman, makes sense.) (Parenthesis!)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    A blip? The JSA have been elder statesmen and inspirations for younger heroes for 35 years of their 73 year history. The other 38 years includes a 10 yr period when they weren't even in print. They've been portrayed as older heroes for 50 years. That's no blip, it's a major portion of their history.
    I would argue that the original era when E2 diverged from E1 as part of their original incarnation, but with the characters allowed to age. They weren't used as elder statesmen until they were brought back post-Crisis with Starman and JSA. Sure, they were older, but being older wasn't their "thing". Being the originals was their "thing." And both of those were great, but constraining when kept in active continuity. Even explained, a phalanx of octogenarians fighting crime still seemed weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Command-D View Post
    The only thing I dislike about Earth 2, is the Evil Superman. Sorry, at this point Evil Superman is a cliche.

    Need someone with Superman's powers, bring Powergirl back to Earth 2 - Then you'll have a team with some great female heroes - Powergirl, Huntress, Hawkgirl, Barda, Fury, Red Tornado, Aquawoman - possibly Crimson Avenger and Judo Master.

    I find it interesting, that everyone the dislikes the idea of a new Batman threatens to walk. I like all the question he raises. Like who is he, and why Mr. Miracle and Barda (Two New Gods) were the first to acknowledge he existed.
    Yeah, I wish that Superman at least was still wearing the Brutale armor. He's been kinda fun, but also is something we've seen many, many times. Evil Wonder Woman would have been more interesting.

    Maybe Thomas Wayne was raised from the dead, empowered and trained as an assassin by Kanto, the chief assassin of Darkseid? It'd have really cool echoes of the League of Assassins and explain why he was thought of as a criminal and a madman. Could be a great way to tie some Doctor Hurt, Damian Wayne and Azrael into the new Batman.

    And yeah, Worlds' Finest needs to move to E2. And if it were written by Taylor, I would love it intensely. Like this ice cream!
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  12. #42
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by An Ear In The Fireplace View Post
    Someone ought to slap your snout with a rolled up newspaper. I'm really disappointed in you. The poster may have used a weak example, but the point was obvious. There are hundreds of popular concepts set in other periods and situations than early 21st century Earth. You know what the poster was trying to get across and yet you chose to take a cheap shot. Bad doggy.
    Nonsense. What is interesting in one genre is not going to be interesting in another. Honey Boo-boo is popular but that doesn't make that "setting" a good one for super-heroes.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  13. #43
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    He's saying Darkseid and Apokolips are greater than Hitler and the Nazis. Which is of course absurd, as Darkseid and Apokolips do not exist and therefore never killed anyone, while Hitler and Nazi Germany certainly did exist and killed millions. Comparing any fictional villain to the real life evil that was Nazi Germany is tasteless.

    The other stuff about WW II being old hat and all....I just don't have the words for how insanely ignorant that is to say.
    I don't believe he meant in terms of actual evil, but in terms of as a background for super-hero stories.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  14. #44
    I'm a true LoL! Shinomune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    "Overexploited WWII"?!? Dude, how young are you?

    I still respect that period of time . . . my Dad was in the army during the latter part of WWII.
    I'm from Spain, and after a Civil War, a Hitler's friend called General Francisco Franco ruled with his fascist army Spain 36 years without no-one cared about us. No one came to rescue us, because like other examples in the world the last half century, a capitalist dictador is/was better than a comunist country and/or a non-moderate muslim one (btw, I'm democrat & agnostic).

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    There is much that still needs to be remembered about the horrors that led to the war.
    Even today, there are still problems with neo-Nazis thinking they're superior and stuff.
    Yes, mainly, how countries treated so poorly Germany after the WWI, economically squeezing by the winners. Like now with Greece - btw, was a huge mistake to put that country in the EU in the first place -, where the neonazis are more sadly uprising. But probably, those things doesn't matter...

    Quote Originally Posted by An Ear In The Fireplace View Post
    If you see Jack Kirby's Fourth World titles as a metaphor for World War Two, you're really missing the point.
    No, but Earth 2 was devastated much worse than the real world with the WWII. The point is that. There's a World War, and from the ashes a new gen of heroes (or wonders, in this case) appeares. It's exactly the same point. The only difference, is that Earth 2 uses DC Universes characters and not real people. It's a fictional universe, and I prefer Darkseid over Hitler or Metropolis over NY.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    What I don't understand is why DC couldn't have an Earth where there were the Golden Age heroes active during World War II, but just not around at present because they either aged, died, or have been (temporarily?) removed from reality? The legacy could still be the back story, but the 2nd or 3rd generation heroes could be the ones in the spotlight.
    Maybe they do. We don't know much about the 52 Earths.

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