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  1. #76
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    This basically.

    The issue really is consistency not continuity.

    Continuity isn't a strength and stories shouldn't be written to serve continuity, however, they should be consistent with what's happening in the rest of the universe.
    It would be sad if Remender was writing one Marvel U Continuity on his own, and everybody else was adhering to the Normal MU continuity. I felt Loeb wrote Red Hulk like that, and I had a lot of trouble fitting his books and events into the main sequence flow.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  2. #77
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Angel View Post
    isn't continuity in comics merely a myth now? I thought them breaking "time" kinda implied this kinda thing. Oh well no sense in trying to piece it together lets just enjoy the stories and hope rogue really isn't dead.
    No, I'm interested in your view on this. How is breaking Space-Time making continuity a myth? Are you saying that time is so adrift now, that Marvel NOW has no boundaries and that incidents are changing the NOW all the time? For example. Uncanny Avengers could be happening while Infinity is going on too, because, you know, it doesn't have to follow that one incident happens chronologically any more. UC can happen, and the details that occur there, (PEAK destroyed) do not carry over to what goes on in Infinity or Inhumanity? It would mean Heroic Age Avengers #1-5 all over again. There is a time quake, and suddenly new conditions appear and people have to interact with that for a while, till that disappears and something else floats into the MU?
    Last edited by jackolover; 12-09-2013 at 08:44 PM.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  3. #78
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    I'm starting to think SWORD has a DOOM time machine, like the one Victor used after Le Fey destroyed his castle, and instantly made it reappear from another time stream. I think SWORD have a similar capability, and they just press a button, and another PEAK appears out of time.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  4. #79
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    It would be sad if Remender was writing one Marvel U Continuity on his own, and everybody else was adhering to the Normal MU continuity. I felt Loeb wrote Red Hulk like that, and I had a lot of trouble fitting his books and events into the main sequence flow.
    But that's not exactly what's happening.

    Remender's work isn't totally ignoring what's happening in the greater Marvel universe. I will say though that it's practically impossible for anyone to fit every story happening into a main sequence flow.

    With multi issue story arcs (which is a lot more prevalent today than say 20 years ago) it's getting increasingly difficult for writers to fit their stories into continuity.

    Remender isn't the only writer guilty of this. As someone said earlier, when Otto became Spider-man, it took a while for other books to catch up with the events in that book. Same with Wolverine losing his healing factor.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  5. #80
    A regular guy hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    But the big thing people are talking about here is timing. And in regards to that, pretty much no writer actually gives a shit. Jason Aaron has Thor running around Asgard while Hickman has him fighting aliens and Remender has him fighting the Twins. Matt Fraction has Hawkeye fighting the Bro Mafia while Hickman has him fight aliens and Nick Spencer has him fighting AIM. How do all of these comics fit together chronologically? Odds are, they don't. And I don't think they're really supposed to.
    It's an impossible task. If someone were to sit down and scrutinize each book and then tried to place them in chronological order, there would be conflicts and seeming paradoxes and all kinds of errors. It's just the way it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    It's not the same relationship at all. There are no crossovers between the movie and the comic books. They do not share a fictional universe. The comic books (within the main line and the Ultimate line respectively, of course) do.
    You missed my point. It's exactly the same relationship FOR ME. I don't need to reconcile what happens in Remender's UA with what happens in Hickman's Avengers anymore than I need to reconcile it with what happens in the movies.

    I realize that two books supposedly "share" continuity while the movie does not. I simply don't care that that is what they say, and I enjoy each book as its own entity just as I enjoy the movie as its own entity. It's a conscious choice I've made.

    You should try it sometime....it's quite liberating.

    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    When they have crossovers that affect events in each title (as opposed to crossovers with no ongoing connection, like the old Marvel/DC or Archie/Punisher specials), then they are in fact telling us that these titles are occurring in the same world. That's not my preference, that's what they chose to publish.
    No, that's what they choose to say they publish. What they actually publish is far from a flawless shared universe. It's a collection of stories and they stick just enough to shared ideas and events to say that there's a shared continuity.

    But in practice, it's pretty obvious that's not truly the case. If anyone thinks that Hickman really cares what's happening in other Avenger books, I'd be surprised. Were any of the nob-Hickman penned books in Infinity in any way essential to the story? Did we need to see Proxima Midnight fighting the Mighty Squad? Did she even disappear from Hickman's tale to really allow for that fight?

    He's doing his own thing. Which I am personally glad for.

    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Sure there are. One is that you can't have it both ways. If you want to sell your books on the basis of guest stars and crossovers and a shared universe and statements like, 'This will change the Marvel Universe forever', then there needs to actually be a shared universe, ideally one that is handled well. If you're going to turn around and say that the universe isn't really shared and the events in one book (such as UA) aren't reflected in the rest of the MU, then give up that marketing angle.
    Well no I don't expect Marvel to change their marketing scheme. All the stuff you just described is rhetoric they use to sell books. I read the books that I think will be interesting based on creative team and concept. I don't care how any of it effects the Marvel U as a whole.

    Buying into their marketing scheme doesn't make it any more true than the Fantastic Four being called the "world's greatest comic magazine". I suppose it's true if you choose to believe it, but if you don't than you can kind of see it for what it is.

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    It seems like Wolverine might be missing his healing factor in UA, though I could be wrong.
    Based on Remender's response on Twitter to a question about Rogue having absorbed it, he still has it.

    But the big thing people are talking about here is timing. And in regards to that, pretty much no writer actually gives a shit. Jason Aaron has Thor running around Asgard while Hickman has him fighting aliens and Remender has him fighting the Twins. Matt Fraction has Hawkeye fighting the Bro Mafia while Hickman has him fight aliens and Nick Spencer has him fighting AIM. How do all of these comics fit together chronologically? Odds are, they don't. And I don't think they're really supposed to.
    Simultaneously published stories is not the same thing as contradicting stories. Hawkeye, Avengers and Secret Avengers haven't contradicted each other yet. Thor hadn't contradicted anything up through the most recent issue I'd read, but I'm behind a few months.

    Maybe Gillen has it easy, but Hickman's had to work around at least five major character developments from other writers' runs: Beast's transformation, Reed traveling space-time, Tony being off-earth, Otto taking over Peter's body, and now Carol's memory loss. The Reed and Tony ones would be particularly tricky, I'd think, but it works. There are no contradictions.

    I don't see any particular problem in terms of continuity between UA and Captain America.
    Inserting the events of CA (explicitly set on the 4th of July) into the middle of UA suggests an even longer gap between the first and second arcs of UA than the Uncanny X-Force appearance does.

  7. #82
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fringe Division View Post
    Based on Remender's response on Twitter to a question about Rogue having absorbed it, he still has it.



    Simultaneously published stories is not the same thing as contradicting stories. Hawkeye, Avengers and Secret Avengers haven't contradicted each other yet. Thor hadn't contradicted anything up through the most recent issue I'd read, but I'm behind a few months.

    Maybe Gillen has it easy, but Hickman's had to work around at least five major character developments from other writers' runs: Beast's transformation, Reed traveling space-time, Tony being off-earth, Otto taking over Peter's body, and now Carol's memory loss. The Reed and Tony ones would be particularly tricky, I'd think, but it works. There are no contradictions.



    Inserting the events of CA (explicitly set on the 4th of July) into the middle of UA suggests an even longer gap between the first and second arcs of UA than the Uncanny X-Force appearance does.

    But there have been contradictions elsewhere. The Peak station was destroyed first in Uncanny Avengers and in this instance, it's Hickman that's ignoring what Remender has done and not the other way around (the issue was some months before Infinity begun).

    Superior Spider-Man directly contradicted Avengers until its second arc (Avengers started off with Peter Parker as Spider-man but he later changed into Otto).

    Medusa being in FF contradicts (directly) the events of New Avengers building up to Infinity.

    Some writers (when they can) reference what's happening in other books but by and large, Marvel isn't really about tight continuity anymore.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  8. #83
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    The thing is, there are basically no writers who try particularly hard to be consistent with other writers. Sometimes when writers are sharing characters they'll talk things through (I know Kieron Gillen mentioned talking to Matt Fraction about their respective plans for Kate Bishop, and he also mentioned talking to a bunch of writers of teen characters for the Afterparty two-parter), but by and large, they don't bother. Spider-Man is Otto in all the appearances he's made since Superior started, and I think all of Wolverine's recent appearances have him missing his healing factor as a result of the events in his solo. So major character changes are being made consistent across the line.

    But in terms of figuring out, "OK, this part of my story takes place after that part of his story, but before that part of her story," most writers just don't particularly care. Marvel had over 50 comics come out last month that were a part of 616 continuity. That's an average month. At this point, it's impossible for a writer to coordinate with anything more than a couple other books. And that only when really necessary.
    This basically.

    And with Marvel splintering up their team books, it becomes even harder to co-ordinate and put together any coherent time line with events in the universe.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  9. #84
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I remember dismissing the Dark Phoenix Saga because it wasn't referenced in other books. I knew it just didn't matter, right?
    Strange that you should mention that. I'm not sure about TDPS, but this brought to my mind a great exemple of the time which I consider a perfect use of continuity that Marvel no longer seems capable of mastering (I almost got the time frames mixed here). Back in MTU# 69, Beast takes a phone call from Lorna Dane, saying that she couldn't reach the X-Men, to warn them that Havok had been captured by the Living Monolith, so Beast leaves to investigate and gets involved in the battles with Mesmero and Magneto, alongside the X-Men in Uncanny #110-114, leaving Thor to help Spider-Man rescue Havok in MTU #70, and the phone call, as well as Beast leaving and Thor's battle with the LM, is mentioned in Avengers #172, which is the explanation for why Beast was not around for the great Korvac Saga. So, you have three titles loosly interconnected, with thee independant story-lines, all of which can be perfectly enjoyed on it's own, that, however, with simple mentions, add to the feeling of a shared universe. No cross-overs, no tie-ins. The goal seemed to be just add to the reading experience, not force the consumer to buy a dozen titles he really didn't need to read. In trying to do the latter, IMHO, marvel has unnecessarily complicated it's own line. For exemple, in the old days (and Marvel was publishing what, 40 titles at the time? - general estimation - Not that different from today), Best was under the auspices of the Avengers editor. Someone wanted to use Hank, they called the Avengers editor and set it up. Nice and simple. But look at nowadays. If you want to use, say, Wolverine, who do you call? The WATXM editor? The ANADXXM editor? The Avengers editor? The UA editor? The SW editor? The AA editor? and so on... (Yeah, I know, I picked a doozy as an exemple, but it's not that different if you pick Cap, SM, IM, Hawkeye, Hulk, Thor, Storm, etc....) That's one of my peevs with franchising and namebranding that is so popular nowadays. I used to care, and know, who the editors of the books I liked actually were (especially when they were also writers of professionals whose works I liked), nowadays, can't say I do anymore. You hardly feel their influence on the books anymore (unless it's in a hamfisted conflict with the writer, which seems more DC's problem than Marvel's nowadays). I don't even know if you don't have a fast rottation of editors like you seem to have of creative teams.
    So, yeah, IMHO, continuity, or consistency, if you will, would only take a bit more of effort from the part of the editorial and creative teams, however, for years, ever since Joey Q went on record saying it no longer is a concern at Marvel, continuity that makes sense has not been an issue. I find it a shame, for the whole shared universe experiance was one of the things that really made Marvel unique.

    Peace

  10. #85
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    This arc time travel story with time traveling bad guys and and Kang and Immortus.

    Nothing has to fit in....And part of me hopes that it doesn't.

    Now let's take it for a moment as a time travel story. What usually ends them.

    The heroes after much messing about and manage to undo what was done and leaving some heroes with memories of what happens(how many Kang storys has this happened with)...

    Time is put back but everyone who was at the centre of it all remembers.


    But any way what I am getting at is...some of the character may be affected by this but it may be reset or undone(and if it doesn't it may upset some people as the writer and story points of this series is getting on peoples nerves).

  11. #86
    A regular guy hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Strange that you should mention that. I'm not sure about TDPS, but this brought to my mind a great exemple of the time which I consider a perfect use of continuity that Marvel no longer seems capable of mastering (I almost got the time frames mixed here). Back in MTU# 69, Beast takes a phone call from Lorna Dane, saying that she couldn't reach the X-Men, to warn them that Havok had been captured by the Living Monolith, so Beast leaves to investigate and gets involved in the battles with Mesmero and Magneto, alongside the X-Men in Uncanny #110-114, leaving Thor to help Spider-Man rescue Havok in MTU #70, and the phone call, as well as Beast leaving and Thor's battle with the LM, is mentioned in Avengers #172, which is the explanation for why Beast was not around for the great Korvac Saga. So, you have three titles loosly interconnected, with thee independant story-lines, all of which can be perfectly enjoyed on it's own, that, however, with simple mentions, add to the feeling of a shared universe. No cross-overs, no tie-ins. The goal seemed to be just add to the reading experience, not force the consumer to buy a dozen titles he really didn't need to read. In trying to do the latter, IMHO, marvel has unnecessarily complicated it's own line. For exemple, in the old days (and Marvel was publishing what, 40 titles at the time? - general estimation - Not that different from today), Best was under the auspices of the Avengers editor. Someone wanted to use Hank, they called the Avengers editor and set it up. Nice and simple. But look at nowadays. If you want to use, say, Wolverine, who do you call? The WATXM editor? The ANADXXM editor? The Avengers editor? The UA editor? The SW editor? The AA editor? and so on... (Yeah, I know, I picked a doozy as an exemple, but it's not that different if you pick Cap, SM, IM, Hawkeye, Hulk, Thor, Storm, etc....) That's one of my peevs with franchising and namebranding that is so popular nowadays. I used to care, and know, who the editors of the books I liked actually were (especially when they were also writers of professionals whose works I liked), nowadays, can't say I do anymore. You hardly feel their influence on the books anymore (unless it's in a hamfisted conflict with the writer, which seems more DC's problem than Marvel's nowadays). I don't even know if you don't have a fast rottation of editors like you seem to have of creative teams.
    So, yeah, IMHO, continuity, or consistency, if you will, would only take a bit more of effort from the part of the editorial and creative teams, however, for years, ever since Joey Q went on record saying it no longer is a concern at Marvel, continuity that makes sense has not been an issue. I find it a shame, for the whole shared universe experiance was one of the things that really made Marvel unique.

    Peace
    I used to enjoy that kind of stuff too. Back in those days, things were more manageable. But those days are gone.

    What it would take to coordinate something like that these days, and for such little payoff, I can't imagine that it's worth it. It's ine thing to incorporate a major story event like Superior Spider-Man or something, but just a casual reference like that? That's a bit too much, I think.

  12. #87
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    You missed my point. It's exactly the same relationship FOR ME. I don't need to reconcile what happens in Remender's UA with what happens in Hickman's Avengers anymore than I need to reconcile it with what happens in the movies.

    I realize that two books supposedly "share" continuity while the movie does not. I simply don't care that that is what they say, and I enjoy each book as its own entity just as I enjoy the movie as its own entity. It's a conscious choice I've made.
    That's nice. It's still an observable, objective fact that the comics cross over with each other where the movie does not cross over with the comics (but does with the TV series). Therefore, the relationship is objectively different in terms of what they actually publish and distribute.



    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    No, that's what they choose to say they publish. What they actually publish is far from a flawless shared universe. It's a collection of stories and they stick just enough to shared ideas and events to say that there's a shared continuity.
    Never said it was flawless, but they do in fact have crossovers and other stories (not just editorial pronouncements) where it is clearly stated in the stories that they are taking place in the same world, with the same characters. So it is in fact what they actually publish, not just what they say they publish. It makes it into print.

  13. #88
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fringe Division View Post
    Inserting the events of CA (explicitly set on the 4th of July) into the middle of UA suggests an even longer gap between the first and second arcs of UA than the Uncanny X-Force appearance does.
    Does it? I thought the Dimension Z thing was only a few days at most in the MU. Only a moment, actually, wasn't it?

  14. #89
    F&*k BOTA!!! Hariel0079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Does it? I thought the Dimension Z thing was only a few days at most in the MU. Only a moment, actually, wasn't it?
    I think Dimension Z was about "hours" according to Sharon

  15. #90
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozy Marvelite View Post
    This arc time travel story with time traveling bad guys and and Kang and Immortus.

    Nothing has to fit in....And part of me hopes that it doesn't.

    Now let's take it for a moment as a time travel story. What usually ends them.

    The heroes after much messing about and manage to undo what was done and leaving some heroes with memories of what happens(how many Kang storys has this happened with)...

    Time is put back but everyone who was at the centre of it all remembers.


    But any way what I am getting at is...some of the character may be affected by this but it may be reset or undone(and if it doesn't it may upset some people as the writer and story points of this series is getting on peoples nerves).
    I kind of thought that was a given here myself. Given the time travel aspect.

    By the time this arc is over. The status quo at the beginning of the arc will be back.
    Rogue, Wonder Man and Scarlet will be alive and might not even remember getting killed at all.

    The longer these writers have thier individual arcs go the harder it will be to have all the
    major events line up in continuity.

    It took Hickman 8 issue before he could reference SpOck.

    Look how long it took Rememder to reference Dimension Z in Uncanny Avengers and he wrote that himself.
    Last edited by Vic Vega; 12-10-2013 at 11:08 AM.

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