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  1. #106
    Hex Magic Nemesis@'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booshman View Post
    But that Marvel in that Avenger's list you linked is isn't Monica. It's Carol.

    And the hypothetical higher number of issues for Monica (in the future) doesn't mean that she should be higher than BP on the current list. Because currently he still has more Avengers issues under his belt than she does.
    Well, I'm not saying that she should be more than BP. I'm just saying that she may exceed he in number of participations as a member.
    He has 135 as a member and she has 118 as a member. In little more than a year she can overcome it.

    That's what I mean ..

  2. #107

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    All of this back-and-forth about BP's place on the list made me go research stuff about him today and I learned that:
    The Black Panther's official joining date for the Avengers was Avengers #52 (May 1968)
    *This put him in the "2nd wave" of Avengers along with Captain America (March 1964), Hawkeye/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch (May 1965), Swordsman (September 1965) and Hercules (October 1967) who joined before him
    *And the Vision (November 1968) and Black Knight (December 1969) who joined after him.
    The quinjet first appeared in The Avengers #61 (February 1969) and was designed by the Wakanda Design Group, headed by the Black Panther, T'Challa.

    The fact he was the one that gave the Avengers Quinjets, which are as known and iconic as the X-Men's blackbirds, is enough of a reason for him to be in the Top 10. Him being a member since 1968 also gives him more than enough Avengers tenure, regardless of how much or how little writers decided to use him, he was still a member.

    Other fun tidbits I learned was:
    Iron Man 2 features a scene where Nick Fury shows Tony Stark a digital map which pinpoints various metahumans across the globe. One of these electronic indicators was shown in Africa, and according to director Jon Favreau, this was meant as an explicit reference to Black Panther.


    So thanks forums, my only exposure to BP has been through the New Avengers book and I wouldn't have learned any of this stuff today if his inclusion wasn't such a passionate hot button issue for some!
    Last edited by AriaMournesong; 11-16-2013 at 10:26 PM.

  3. #108
    Senior Member Booshman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AriaMournesong View Post
    All of this back-and-forth about BP's place on the list made me go research stuff about him today and I learned that:
    The Black Panther's official joining date for the Avengers was Avengers #52 (May 1968)
    *This put him in the "2nd wave" of Avengers along with Captain America (March 1964), Hawkeye/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch (May 1965), Swordsman (September 1965) and Hercules (October 1967) who joined before him
    *And the Vision (November 1968) and Black Knight (December 1969) who joined after him.
    The quinjet first appeared in The Avengers #61 (February 1969) and was designed by the Wakanda Design Group, headed by the Black Panther, T'Challa.

    The fact he was the one that gave the Avengers Quinjets, which are as known and iconic as the X-Men's blackbirds, is enough of a reason for him to be in the Top 10. Him being a member since 1968 also gives him more than enough Avengers tenure, regardless of how much or how little writers decided to use him, he was still a member.

    Other fun tidbits I learned was:
    Iron Man 2 features a scene where Nick Fury shows Tony Stark a digital map which pinpoints various metahumans across the globe. One of these electronic indicators was shown in Africa, and according to director Jon Favreau, this was meant as an explicit reference to Black Panther.


    So thanks forums, my only exposure to BP has been through the New Avengers book and I wouldn't have learned any of this stuff today if his inclusion wasn't such a passionate hot button issue for some!
    Come my friend! Venture into the BP thread from time to time! We shall expand your knowledge of all things Panther! We even have Wakandan Fruit Snacks for all the new posters!

  4. #109
    I am Rabum Alal Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis@ View Post
    Now, I'm not understanding. lol What Ms Marvel has to do with it?

    I'm just saying that Monica exceed T'Challa at some time by the number of issues as a member, while BP will not accompany this change.

    She is a current member of the Avengers,
    he is not a member for years. Therefore the number of issues of her will increase while him will remain the same.
    First, Props to AriaMournesong. "obnoxious BP fans" are lovers of factual information.

    Next, Nemesis--currently T'challa is the central character of the "most important book being published by Marvel" according to Alonso, Brevoort and Hickman.
    Like it or not, T'challa IS a classic Avenger and also a very important historical comic character. Number of issues doesn't isn't the sole factor either.
    SO LET THIS BE A LESSON. LEARN. YOUR. PLACE. - Prince Freeman

  5. #110
    I am Rabum Alal Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AriaMournesong View Post
    All of this back-and-forth about BP's place on the list made me go research stuff about him today and I learned that:
    The Black Panther's official joining date for the Avengers was Avengers #52 (May 1968)
    *This put him in the "2nd wave" of Avengers along with Captain America (March 1964), Hawkeye/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch (May 1965), Swordsman (September 1965) and Hercules (October 1967) who joined before him
    *And the Vision (November 1968) and Black Knight (December 1969) who joined after him.
    The quinjet first appeared in The Avengers #61 (February 1969) and was designed by the Wakanda Design Group, headed by the Black Panther, T'Challa.

    The fact he was the one that gave the Avengers Quinjets, which are as known and iconic as the X-Men's blackbirds, is enough of a reason for him to be in the Top 10. Him being a member since 1968 also gives him more than enough Avengers tenure, regardless of how much or how little writers decided to use him, he was still a member.

    Other fun tidbits I learned was:
    Iron Man 2 features a scene where Nick Fury shows Tony Stark a digital map which pinpoints various metahumans across the globe. One of these electronic indicators was shown in Africa, and according to director Jon Favreau, this was meant as an explicit reference to Black Panther.


    So thanks forums, my only exposure to BP has been through the New Avengers book and I wouldn't have learned any of this stuff today if his inclusion wasn't such a passionate hot button issue for some!
    Great post!
    SO LET THIS BE A LESSON. LEARN. YOUR. PLACE. - Prince Freeman

  6. #111
    A regular guy hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis@ View Post
    Of course not. He has over 300 appearances as a member and did much during this period and does not deserve the top 10.

    Who deserves is Black Widow, Black Panther and Carol who has less equity as you can see.

    Attachment 122061

    Ah, this list is probably in the Heroic Age.

    They deserve the top 20? Definitely.
    I would place Wonder Man in the 11 to 20 range. But not top 10.

    Everyone's reasons for picking the characters is different. Yours is clearly largely based on how many issues the character has been in. To me, that's a small part of it. In fact, Wonder Man is probably the least necessary of the "classic" Avengers. His role is by far the least distinct out of those characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genki Sudo View Post
    I'm a Wonder Man fan and no he is not top 10
    Yeah I have nothing against the character, I like him most of the time. Just don't think he deserves the top 10 status.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rage.Of.Olympus View Post
    It was a pretty decent list but T'Challa as awesome as he is, being over Simon/Wanda/Monica and the others just makes no sense. I really hate what Wanda has become but common, give credit where credit is due.

    And him being number 8, ahead of Carol and Black Widow? LMAO, that's just ridiculous. T'Challa shouldn't be ahead of Beast or Hercules, much less some of these other guys. Does seem like a minority thing more then anything else.
    I think you're really overstating Monica's role on the team. I think a lot of people are just because she is a big figure in the book during a revered era. But in the grand scheme of things, she didn't have a huge impact on the team. She was there for some cool stories...then she became chairman and led the team into ruin. Not her fault, really, but that doesn't make her stand out.

    As for the race thing, the only way it matters really is from a historical perspective. He was Marvel's first black character, and the first black Avenger. So that is a bit of a big deal....but he was also one of the first additions after Hawkeye and the twins. He's been an Avenger for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rage.Of.Olympus View Post
    I pretend the modern day Beast is actually a clone that Dark Beast placed in his place. The loveable blue fur-ball from the Avengers is still one of my favorite members of the Avengers team and was an incredible amount of fun.

    What? I don't want Black Panther on the list because he doesn't deserve it by any standard you want to measure Avenger member importance. Not because he's black. That's idiotic. I might be wrong about the minority thing, afterall, it was obviously just a guess and I don't know any of the list makers personally.

    Black Panther doesn't belong on that list. Luke Cage or Monica have far more right to his spot on the list as they have both been very influential and important leaders of teams on different occasions if you think this is a minority thing for some reason.

    Now that I think about it, Black Widow also has no business being on the list ahead of Luke or Monica or Simon or Wanda either. What has she ever done on the Avengers except kill random ninjas? She's always just there. Probably because of the movie.
    Scarlet Witch is the only character who I think people have reason to complain about her placement. But even so, she was still top 20. She probably should have been top 10 and then bump Carol or Widow down to the second 10.

    But aside from that, Widow is another early addition to the team. She's also had several tenures over the years, and been the leader as well. And yes, the movie probably bumps her profile up a bit....but why shouldn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Booshman View Post
    Are...you posting this to say that "Monica should be higher on the list, because here (which I assume is the silver-age) Ms. Marvel is higher"? If so, I dunno how that can be, since the Ms. Marvel on that list says "Danvers".
    This list is from a couple years ago at most. Toward the end, you'll see a bunch of the Dark Avengers listed. Which only serves to prove how pointless it is to go by number of issues as a member.

    Quote Originally Posted by AriaMournesong View Post
    All of this back-and-forth about BP's place on the list made me go research stuff about him today and I learned that:
    The Black Panther's official joining date for the Avengers was Avengers #52 (May 1968)
    *This put him in the "2nd wave" of Avengers along with Captain America (March 1964), Hawkeye/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch (May 1965), Swordsman (September 1965) and Hercules (October 1967) who joined before him
    *And the Vision (November 1968) and Black Knight (December 1969) who joined after him.
    The quinjet first appeared in The Avengers #61 (February 1969) and was designed by the Wakanda Design Group, headed by the Black Panther, T'Challa.

    The fact he was the one that gave the Avengers Quinjets, which are as known and iconic as the X-Men's blackbirds, is enough of a reason for him to be in the Top 10. Him being a member since 1968 also gives him more than enough Avengers tenure, regardless of how much or how little writers decided to use him, he was still a member.

    Other fun tidbits I learned was:
    Iron Man 2 features a scene where Nick Fury shows Tony Stark a digital map which pinpoints various metahumans across the globe. One of these electronic indicators was shown in Africa, and according to director Jon Favreau, this was meant as an explicit reference to Black Panther.

    So thanks forums, my only exposure to BP has been through the New Avengers book and I wouldn't have learned any of this stuff today if his inclusion wasn't such a passionate hot button issue for some!
    Nice! Yeah, Black Panther is a really important character all around. I think he deserves the top 10 spot for all the reasons you listed and more.

  7. #112
    Senior Member NamorsTrident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post

    I think you're really overstating Monica's role on the team. I think a lot of people are just because she is a big figure in the book during a revered era. But in the grand scheme of things, she didn't have a huge impact on the team. She was there for some cool stories...then she became chairman and led the team into ruin. Not her fault, really, but that doesn't make her stand out.
    I don't think Photon should have been in the top 10 but she had a pretty big impact on the team. To say that she didn't just seems like you may not be as familiar with her run. She was even in the Secrete War title were in some ways she was showcased at how useful and valuable she actually was.

  8. #113
    Justified Ancient of MuMu yvahed's Avatar
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    Wanda should have been Top 10.
    SheHulk should have been Top 15.
    Glad Tigra came close to Top 20.

  9. #114
    I'm a male DebkoX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvahed View Post
    Wanda should have been Top 10.
    SheHulk should have been Top 15.
    Glad Tigra came close to Top 20.
    I agree with these.
    “The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.”

  10. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by AriaMournesong View Post
    All of this back-and-forth about BP's place on the list made me go research stuff about him today and I learned that:
    The Black Panther's official joining date for the Avengers was Avengers #52 (May 1968)
    *This put him in the "2nd wave" of Avengers along with Captain America (March 1964), Hawkeye/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch (May 1965), Swordsman (September 1965) and Hercules (October 1967) who joined before him
    *And the Vision (November 1968) and Black Knight (December 1969) who joined after him.
    The quinjet first appeared in The Avengers #61 (February 1969) and was designed by the Wakanda Design Group, headed by the Black Panther, T'Challa.

    The fact he was the one that gave the Avengers Quinjets, which are as known and iconic as the X-Men's blackbirds, is enough of a reason for him to be in the Top 10. Him being a member since 1968 also gives him more than enough Avengers tenure, regardless of how much or how little writers decided to use him, he was still a member.

    Other fun tidbits I learned was:
    Iron Man 2 features a scene where Nick Fury shows Tony Stark a digital map which pinpoints various metahumans across the globe. One of these electronic indicators was shown in Africa, and according to director Jon Favreau, this was meant as an explicit reference to Black Panther.


    So thanks forums, my only exposure to BP has been through the New Avengers book and I wouldn't have learned any of this stuff today if his inclusion wasn't such a passionate hot button issue for some!
    Look up in the shy! It's a bird! It's a plane!

    No! It's an awesome post pooping on the lames!

  11. #116
    DD & BP: secret BFF's FriendRoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AriaMournesong View Post
    All of this back-and-forth about BP's place on the list made me go research stuff about him today and I learned that:
    The Black Panther's official joining date for the Avengers was Avengers #52 (May 1968)
    *This put him in the "2nd wave" of Avengers along with Captain America (March 1964), Hawkeye/Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch (May 1965), Swordsman (September 1965) and Hercules (October 1967) who joined before him
    *And the Vision (November 1968) and Black Knight (December 1969) who joined after him.
    The quinjet first appeared in The Avengers #61 (February 1969) and was designed by the Wakanda Design Group, headed by the Black Panther, T'Challa.

    The fact he was the one that gave the Avengers Quinjets, which are as known and iconic as the X-Men's blackbirds, is enough of a reason for him to be in the Top 10. Him being a member since 1968 also gives him more than enough Avengers tenure, regardless of how much or how little writers decided to use him, he was still a member.

    Other fun tidbits I learned was:
    Iron Man 2 features a scene where Nick Fury shows Tony Stark a digital map which pinpoints various metahumans across the globe. One of these electronic indicators was shown in Africa, and according to director Jon Favreau, this was meant as an explicit reference to Black Panther.


    So thanks forums, my only exposure to BP has been through the New Avengers book and I wouldn't have learned any of this stuff today if his inclusion wasn't such a passionate hot button issue for some!

    I had a similar moment of discovery several years ago. When you peel it back and look at the facts. It's eye opening. Best I can tell is for no good reason the character fell out of favor in the 80's and early 90's for no good reason. Causing a lack of exposure for a large segment of the current comics buyers


    But if you just scratch the surface......


    Other interesting panther tidbits.

    - panther was the first character in the MU i can find to figure out daredevils secret identity


    - was the first person we see teamed with cap in his first issue of his first book captain America 100



    - also one of the guys knee deep in visions first issue







  12. #117
    Hex Magic Nemesis@'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Freeman View Post
    First, Props to AriaMournesong. "obnoxious BP fans" are lovers of factual information.

    Next, Nemesis--currently T'challa is the central character of the "most important book being published by Marvel" according to Alonso, Brevoort and Hickman.
    Like it or not, T'challa IS a classic Avenger and also a very important historical comic character. Number of issues doesn't isn't the sole factor either.
    My God, how many times do I have to say that I'm not criticizing T'Challa? I'm just pointing out that it is not so far from Monica in the number of issues as they said before. I'm not even discussing whether he is an avenger classic or not.

    And man, I read New Avengers and know his role. The problem is that it is not in a team of Avengers.

    Is it so difficult to understand that I'm not questioning it but pointing out that it can be overcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Everyone's reasons for picking the characters is different. Yours is clearly largely based on how many issues the character has been in. To me, that's a small part of it. In fact, Wonder Man is probably the least necessary of the "classic" Avengers. His role is by far the least distinct out of those characters.
    Largest number of contributions is proportional to the number of issues. But no, it is not the only factor.

    But aside from that, Widow is another early addition to the team. She's also had several tenures over the years, and been the leader as well. And yes, the movie probably bumps her profile up a bit....but why shouldn't it?
    Wow, you want to increase the placement of it because of the movie and not for her role in the comics?

    And let's not forget that Natasha left Cap and Dane lead most of the time.

    This list is from a couple years ago at most. Toward the end, you'll see a bunch of the Dark Avengers listed. Which only serves to prove how pointless it is to go by number of issues as a member.
    Heroic Age. Is not so far.

    And if you find something better, let me know.
    Last edited by Nemesis@; 11-17-2013 at 08:19 AM.

  13. #118
    I am Rabum Alal Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis@ View Post
    My God, how many times do I have to say that I'm not criticizing T'Challa? I'm just pointing out that it is not so far from Monica in the number of issues as they said before. I'm not even discussing whether he is an avenger classic or not.

    And man, I read New Avengers and know his role. The problem is that it is not in a team of Avengers.
    I didn't say you (personally) were doing that.
    But also that's not how Marvel views it apparently. They mention it in the bio. Besides, Brevoort is on record saying that T'challa is VERY important to the Avengers franchise.
    "Black Panther is the lynchpin character of New Avengers. The central character. He's very important to the Avengers franchise as a whole." - Tom Brevoort.
    That's my point.
    SO LET THIS BE A LESSON. LEARN. YOUR. PLACE. - Prince Freeman

  14. #119
    Senior Member NamorsTrident's Avatar
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    Not to beat a dead horse but even BP early involvement with the Avengers didn't have any major defining moments to place him in the top ten. The Quin Jets where an excellent gift to the team sure but other members on the team have put more on the line and had more rememberable moments than he has. Same can be said for Widow as well but the only reason why I think she could hold a spot at the the top ten was due to her time as leader of the team when it was more like an "organized" fighting unit. She made some big plays during that time. However, I can not recall a time that BP was an irreplaceable asset to the team. And I did look pretty hard when I was actually trying to get into the character. (Believe most know how that ended)

  15. #120
    Senior Member NamorsTrident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis@ View Post
    And man, I read New Avengers and know his role. The problem is that it is not in a team of Avengers.
    Also, just to point out, what those characters are doing in that book isn't something, in my opinion at least, that would gain them points for top ten greatest Avengers. I'm sure if some of the Avengers knew what was going on with their group a lot of the core players would not only disagree but try to stop them. (Even though that would probably more harm than good overall)

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