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  1. #106
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    More importantly, I'm a Thor fan who loved TDW.
    Yeah you are!

    But I see the discussion has moved on to the next thread - $86M in the US and $329M worldwide -

    - FOR ASGARD!
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  2. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    We see Thor take out an enemy warrior whose face we cant see, which is a lot different to seeing the light go out of Zod's eyes as he falls lifeless to the ground.

    Its like the difference between Luke Skywalker using a lightsabre on a skiff guard and Rick cutting through a zombies head with a chainsaw. Completely different levels of violence.
    How about Darth Maul impaling Qui Gonn Jinn with his double-dong saber and the latter falling to his knees? The camera doesn't cut for that, either. Forgot about that, didn'tcha?

    Look, your bias is very apparent. And the Zod neck-snap doesn't mean the movie should be only viewed by moviegoers 17 and up. It wasn't just a battle for anybody or anything, it was a battle FOR EARTH. It's an invasion film and the invaders made the Dark Elves look impotent.

  3. #108

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    I thought the movie was ok. It felt a bit rushed and generic, but it was nice to look at and the jokes worked for the most part. I preferred Iron Man 3.

  4. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhymeswithparc View Post
    If your proof of this is the attack on Asgard then I don't follow your point at all.
    It's rather easy to follow because I'm replying to your comment that MoS celebrates gratuitous destruction and Avengers doesn't. It should be obvious enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhymeswithparc View Post
    Asgard was attacked with purpose and and the destruction in that scene was to show how tied up the forces of Asgard was enough to allow Frigga to die. It also was to build up Malekith's threat for when Thor would argue that his next attack would be far worse. It had a purpose being there and story followed through with it. If Asgard was attacked and Frigga died but the entire thing was forgotten, then you might be able to say they just put it in there because they wanted to show destruction but they had the scene to advance the plot.
    In MoS, General Zod and his crew finally find the only other probable survivor of Krypton — Kal-el, the son of Zod's former opponent, Jor-el — living on a habitable world. Zod wants the Codex and is convinced Kal-el is hiding it. A while later, it is discovered that Jor-el synthesized the very essence of the Codex into the living form of Kal-el. Zod cannot convince Kal-el to become his ally and whoever is not Zod's ally is his enemy. The General, a genetically bred warrior, makes a choice: to employ a device called a World Engine to terraform the Earth and birth a new Krypton on its ashes. The only thing that stands in the way of Zod and his crew is...Kal-el, i.e. Superman. Sounds like an ironclad plot to me. The events that ensued...you labeled them revelrous?

  5. #110
    Senior Member rhymeswithparc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslibre View Post
    It's rather easy to follow because I'm replying to your comment that MoS celebrates gratuitous destruction and Avengers doesn't. It should be obvious enough.



    In MoS, General Zod and his crew finally find the only other probable survivor of Krypton — Kal-el, the son of Zod's former opponent, Jor-el — living on a habitable world. Zod wants the Codex and is convinced Kal-el is hiding it. A while later, it is discovered that Jor-el synthesized the very essence of the Codex into the living form of Kal-el. Zod cannot convince Kal-el to become his ally and whoever is not Zod's ally is his enemy. The General, a genetically bred warrior, makes a choice: to employ a device called a World Engine to terraform the Earth and birth a new Krypton on its ashes. The only thing that stands in the way of Zod and his crew is...Kal-el, i.e. Superman. Sounds like an ironclad plot to me. The events that ensued...you labeled them revelrous?
    In Avengers, Loki wanted the tesseract so he invaded Earth with an army of aliens; in TDW, Malekith invaded Asgard with an army of Dark Elves to obtain the Aether in order to plummet the 9 realms into darkness as it once was. I can describe these movies more in-depth but I hardly need to in order to prove my point. Of the three movies, one showed destruction and death for at least half an hour straight (the most out of the three) and also only one completely ignored that destruction and death that it just showed. Since it was ignored by the plot, I can only conclude that it was shown in order to revel in it. The destruction in MOS served no purpose in the that "iron clad" plot. The destruction in Avengers was not only addressed within the movie itself but every Marvel property to come out of it. That event wasn't even comparable what happened in MOS; AN ENTIRE SECTION OF THE CITY WAS REDUCED TO ASH... that is huge and not talked about at all.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslibre View Post
    How about Darth Maul impaling Qui Gonn Jinn with his double-dong saber and the latter falling to his knees? The camera doesn't cut for that, either. Forgot about that, didn'tcha?

    Look, your bias is very apparent. And the Zod neck-snap doesn't mean the movie should be only viewed by moviegoers 17 and up. It wasn't just a battle for anybody or anything, it was a battle FOR EARTH. It's an invasion film and the invaders made the Dark Elves look impotent.
    I forget nothing - but lightsabres, by their very nature, do not draw blood. The only time we have ever seen them do so is in the Cantina in the very first movie - since then they have been a bloodless weapon. Qui-Gonn dies heroically, but you don't see his head fly off his shoulders. As an example...



    This movie has people getting stabbed with swords and shot with arrows, but its still rated G as far as I can tell online. The violence is not at the same level as other movies with sword fighting, such as Gladiator. Darth Maul stabbing Qui-Gonn with his blade is actually, as far as I can recall, the only time the sabre has ever been used to dispatch an opponent without slashing them. One probably reason for this is that Lucas was mindful of the different level of violence between a bloodless thrush through the chest and chopping your opponent into pieces [which is why when Obi-Wan dispatches Maul but cutting him in half you don't actually see the blade pass through him, and the halves don't separate until he is far down the shaft and not right in front of us]

    With the Star Wars franchise, it was left to Revenge of the Sith to see such things as helpless people being decapitated, but that movie has so much wrong with it that I wouldn't recommend it as a kids movie either.

    Talking about how the movie was set up so that Superman had to twist someone's head to shatter their vertebrae in close up does not make the violence of the act less. Bias is an unfair opinion not backed by facts, and since I never said the movie should only be viewed by 17+ year olds and you made that up I don't think I am the one here who is showing a willingness to set facts aside.
    Last edited by brettc1; 11-11-2013 at 03:33 AM.
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  7. #112
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    The destruction in MOS served no purpose in the that "iron clad" plot
    Oh boy.

    1. Destruction showed the gravity of situation. Superman was trying to stop world engine on the other side of the planet while Metropolis was being blow up by main ship. It played towards the old trope of Superman not being able to be everywhere and save everyone.

    2. It gave plot reason for military to stand up to the invaders on their own despite impossible odds. If there was no destruction military could have waited till Superman finishes world engine and returns to help them with main ship.

    Second point is one of the most important things in whole movie. Its not about Superman saving everyone, its about Superman leading humanity to better tomorrow. Humans standing up against superior invaders shows that perfectly. If there was no gravity and sense of doom then there would be a lot less impact for whats to happen. We see that Superman is not going to be here in time so its up to soldiers to do what needs to be done. We root for them because if they fail then whole Metropolis might be leveled. Military was just as heroic and self-sacrificing as Superman.

    This one of the main reasons why i prefer MoS (and Batman) to almost all Marvel movies. Avengers even has government attempting to nuke their own city, but its all fine and dandy if Avengers eat shawarma in post credit scene.
    lots of dots

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    This one of the main reasons why i prefer MoS (and Batman) to almost all Marvel movies. Avengers even has government attempting to nuke their own city, but its all fine and dandy if Avengers eat shawarma in post credit scene.
    Why do people keep going on about the shawarma scene? It's really not a comparable situation, imo.
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  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    The destruction in MOS and the destruction in Dark World had the exact same purpose: to demonstrate the scope and scale of the threat posed by the villains. The fact that MOS didn't stop in the middle of it to show Superman shedding a tear, indian chief-in-anti-pollution-PSA style, doesn't somehow make the violence in MOS any more giddy or egregious.
    I'll be honest, I got bored with all of the destruction. I thought it was too much and just wanted them to move the story along.
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  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslibre View Post
    Overreaching isn't going to get you anywhere. Deaths of innocents are implied in both films. The ONE element that sets MoS apart is the neck-snap, but we see Thor execute a similar move in the dungeons in TDW, and the camera does NOT cut away. We see it, and it's just Another Day In Asgard.
    I think the fact that the Thor neck-snap was treated so flippantly is what makes it easy for people to overlook it. Nobody makes a big deal about it inside the film. Why should we care outside?

    Aside from that, I don't think anyone had an expectation that Thor won't kill. On the other hand, for a lot of people it's been ingrained into them that Superman doesn't kill and he always finds another way.
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  11. #116
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    If you actually prevent hundreds of thousands of people being mangled to death inside falling buildings, you deserve shawarma.
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  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherUnitNo_4 View Post
    Why do people keep going on about the shawarma scene? It's really not a comparable situation, imo.
    I don't know, it just kinda shows how serious Marvel movies are overall. People die, heroes kill and nobody cares because its played out like all fun and games.

    I think the fact that the Thor neck-snap was treated so flippantly is what makes it easy for people to overlook it. Nobody makes a big deal about it inside the film. Why should we care outside?
    Exactly. That why i think Marvel movies are fun yet have very little weight behind their plots.
    lots of dots

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I don't know, it just kinda shows how serious Marvel movies are overall. People die, heroes kill and nobody cares because its played out like all fun and games.



    Exactly. That why i think Marvel movies are fun yet have very little weight behind their plots.
    The thing is, there's still a balance to be struck as far as the levity and gravity of these stories. TDW is an improvement over IM3, imo, but I think we lost a lot of the gravity when they cut out as much character work as they did. If they could have sold us more on the relationships between the characters, the choices the characters made would have had more weight and thus the story itself.

    Hopefully TWS is the film that finally gets it right. I know they've said they're going much more serious for that one, but trailers for IM3 and TDW both suggested similar things and imo, both were more comical than earlier installments.

    For the record, I think Warners/DC has failed finding the balance as well.
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  14. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I forget nothing - but lightsabres, by their very nature, do not draw blood. The only time we have ever seen them do so is in the Cantina in the very first movie - since then they have been a bloodless weapon. Qui-Gonn dies heroically, but you don't see his head fly off his shoulders. As an example...



    This movie has people getting stabbed with swords and shot with arrows, but its still rated G as far as I can tell online. The violence is not at the same level as other movies with sword fighting, such as Gladiator. Darth Maul stabbing Qui-Gonn with his blade is actually, as far as I can recall, the only time the sabre has ever been used to dispatch an opponent without slashing them. One probably reason for this is that Lucas was mindful of the different level of violence between a bloodless thrush through the chest and chopping your opponent into pieces [which is why when Obi-Wan dispatches Maul but cutting him in half you don't actually see the blade pass through him, and the halves don't separate until he is far down the shaft and not right in front of us]

    With the Star Wars franchise, it was left to Revenge of the Sith to see such things as helpless people being decapitated, but that movie has so much wrong with it that I wouldn't recommend it as a kids movie either.

    Talking about how the movie was set up so that Superman had to twist someone's head to shatter their vertebrae in close up does not make the violence of the act less. Bias is an unfair opinion not backed by facts, and since I never said the movie should only be viewed by 17+ year olds and you made that up I don't think I am the one here who is showing a willingness to set facts aside.
    No, I didn't make it up, I chose 17 (instead of, say, 16) as the threshold by which I estimated, as per your commentary, you may think a "M" film or violent film should not be seen by younger viewers. The thing is, it seems like your whole deal with violence is the lack or abundance of blood and certain angles. There is no blood in the MoS neck-snap. Yeah, you see Zod die. But he is the CENTRAL VILLAIN to the entire film. When Maul impales Qui-Gonn, he is the principal HERO of the film (Obi-Wan is still his apprentice). So the kids see a Jedi die in a very unflattering way. There was only one way to finish Zod, who was also trying to give more innocent bystanders a very deep tan (LOL). And for the "thousands" who died in MoS, an entire planet was saved. The nerdrage over the movie holds no water. Avengers is given a pass because of its less serious tone and some cartoonish segments.

  15. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherUnitNo_4 View Post
    I think the fact that the Thor neck-snap was treated so flippantly is what makes it easy for people to overlook it. Nobody makes a big deal about it inside the film. Why should we care outside?

    Aside from that, I don't think anyone had an expectation that Thor won't kill. On the other hand, for a lot of people it's been ingrained into them that Superman doesn't kill and he always finds another way.
    That is exactly the problem. Everyone wants the Superman from the 50s-60s-70s. That's not going to work now for the same reason Burton Batman won't work. Thor has offed thousands of opponents in his lifespan (and counting) but it's no big deal. However, we see Superman's reaction to what he's done in MoS. It's called characterization. In the new chronology, it's his initial conflict and henceforth finally has a handle on his role and purpose.

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