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  1. #16
    Junior Member marvell2k's Avatar
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    Umm so Wolverine died? I read the preview for issue 13 and things didn't seem to match such as the preview saying an Avenger dies at the hands of the Sentry going against the twins wishes. Was this preview meant for issue 14? I don't believe Wolverine is dead and he wasn't killed by the Sentry.

  2. #17
    Junior Member marvell2k's Avatar
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    Against his masters’ orders a deranged and vengeful Sentry kills an Uncanny Avenger! No hoax, no dream and only the first casualty of many!
    • To allow reinforcements from other eras The Wasp must find and destroy the Twins Tachyon transmitter, but first she’ll have to defeat The Grim Reaper.
    • Scarlet Witch makes an impossible choice that will define her forever.
    • Sunfire and Rogue, alone without back up, must defeat the combined might of both Apocalypse Twins or watch the end of our world!

    Some of this stuff didn't happen

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  4. #19
    BAMF Brigade Sundowhn's Avatar
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    Frankly, this "unity" book just keeps getting more skewed.

    The good: Wasp in general and the "old man" dialogue between Cap and Havok was pretty amusing. Remender played with the notion of who is really leading the team in a subtle way, which was nice.

    The bad:
    1)RR still gets his petty digs in on fans who dislike Havok's speech, pulling in fan reactions rather than anything shown on panel. Accept that there is no "right" or "wrong" answer to such an issue and move on. Both sides of it deserve an equal voice and are equally as relevant. STOP trying to justify just one side.
    2)Dragging up the thing of Wolverine being a killer and saying if the word got out it would destroy the Avengers is a very far stretch, considering what Wanda has done. I get that it's the popular thing to troll Wolverine for fans and writers alike, but it has gotten beyond tedious. Wolverine is an old soldier type, who makes the difficult decisions to protect people. He has already admitted several times in the past that he took that too far, is remorseful and has actively been trying to change. Wanda, on the other hand, still doesn't quite grasp how she did anything wrong, to the point where she, yet again, is making a decision that takes away the choice of countless people.
    If you compare Magneto and his daughter, I'd say Magneto has been handled far more realistically and has more honor. He acknowledges his dark tactics, his killer instinct and knows he will never win a popularity contest or be trusted again. Wanda, on the other hand, does none of those things.

    The pathetic:
    1)The Mary-Suing of Wanda, still. Your friendly neighborhood frequently manipulated genocidal damsel in distress has found yet another true love and has a master plan to save the day. A mutant school named after her? REALLY? That's like the fictional equivalent of the Hitler school for Young Jews.
    The redemption of this character is probably possible, but only if handled in a sensitive and organic way. That's not happening.
    2) Continuing to use Rogue to prop up Wanda's story, which is essentially what this book is. Instead of giving equal voice to both sides, RR has portrayed the X-Men side of the equation in a strongly unflattering light with the "killer" Wolverine, the loud-mouthed, unreasonable and brash Rogue, and the non-entity, Shiro. Havok is the only one to get a positive spin, and he preaches assimilation. A writer with such a poor understanding of the minority metaphor and the issues such a group would face with society as a whole has no business writing a title which uses that as the foundation for its premise.

  5. #20
    Junior Member marvell2k's Avatar
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    Who did Scarlet Witch kill? Just because a mutant becomes a human doesn't mean they are dead. The only people she really killed were members of the Avengers. Never understood the whole she committed genocide on the mutant race argument. If they are no longer mutants and just humans doesn't mean they are dead. If anything she made lives easier on many mutants by making them humans.

  6. #21
    BAMF Brigade Sundowhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2k View Post
    Who did Scarlet Witch kill? Just because a mutant becomes a human doesn't mean they are dead. The only people she really killed were members of the Avengers. Never understood the whole she committed genocide on the mutant race argument. If they are no longer mutants and just humans doesn't mean they are dead. If anything she made lives easier on many mutants by making them humans.
    Reread the old issues. People in flight dropped to their death, people that could breathe water drowned, people with extreme physical mutations collapsed and died, etc.

    Once more:
    gen·o·cide (jn-sd)
    n.
    The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.


    From the UN:
    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


    She destroyed their lives and way of life, killed many, eradicated the mutant gene causing them to no longer be born ... seriously, she solidly hits four of the five UN criteria, arguably all five. It only takes one to count as genocide.

    I get that people have the mentality of don't hate the character, hate the writer or prefer to use their head canon in relation to a character they like. However, within the context of the overall story and how the character relates to the universe as a whole, old development cannot be ignored.

    That would be like me saying I love Emma Frost and I'll just pretend like she was never a member of the Hellfire Club because I didn't like the writer back then.
    Last edited by Sundowhn; 10-23-2013 at 10:35 PM.

  7. #22
    I N M E M O R I A M jen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYAvenger15 View Post
    Only if Wolverine and Rogue can join the fun. But I will say I do like Remenders Wolverine. His Rougue really just comes off as a B**** and self righteous.

    But like I said great issue.
    LOL, Rogue is the only character likable in this mess. Wanda Sue and co are jerks but RR is doing everything to shit on X-icons in order to make the Avenger side of this team look good. This may be my last issue. What nonsense to sacrifice a Rogue & Wolvie for this lot.

  8. #23
    Junior Member marvell2k's Avatar
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    So a couple of people died falling out of the sky and drowning some over exaggerations about Scarlet Witch. Mutants are humans so I don't think genocide can even apply to them just turning into humans.

  9. #24
    Senior Member jameszahra's Avatar
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    Glad to see daken beating on the old man once again. Also glad to see that he was aware of sabertooths manipulation in UXF. I'm not a wolverine hater, but he really does deserve a beat down from daken.

    Daken running a school? Interesting concept but I don't think it will happen unlessssss...that's wandas shadow below
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    Who knows but I can't wait to see where this leads

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    I get that people have the mentality of don't hate the character, hate the writer or prefer to use their head canon in relation to a character they like. However, within the context of the overall story and how the character relates to the universe as a whole, old development cannot be ignored.

    That would be like me saying I love Emma Frost and I'll just pretend like she was never a member of the Hellfire Club because I didn't like the writer back then.
    Nobody is saying you have to like Wanda, but at some point you just have to let it go. Remember that the MU is not real, nobody was actually hurt and you don't need to hold anyone accountable for their actions unless doing so would actually make for an interesting story in its own right. M-Day happened almost a decade ago, most people who read it forgot about it a long time ago. At some point all the stragglers who cling to it are going to have to let it go as well, or at least accept the fact that you're never going to get the resolution you want out of it.

  11. #26
    ❤ Walking with thee ❤ Ian Pressman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    Reread the old issues. People in flight dropped to their death, people that could breathe water drowned, people with extreme physical mutations collapsed and died, etc.

    Once more:
    gen·o·cide (jn-sd)
    n.
    The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.


    From the UN:
    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;

    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


    She destroyed their lives and way of life, killed many, eradicated the mutant gene causing them to no longer be born ... seriously, she solidly hits four of the five UN criteria, arguably all five. It only takes one to count as genocide.

    I get that people have the mentality of don't hate the character, hate the writer or prefer to use their head canon in relation to a character they like. However, within the context of the overall story and how the character relates to the universe as a whole, old development cannot be ignored.

    That would be like me saying I love Emma Frost and I'll just pretend like she was never a member of the Hellfire Club because I didn't like the writer back then.
    Those deaths you mention were only included in an M-day one off that hasn't been since referenced by any other writers and may as well have not existed at all. It's in the same gray zone as the Sentry allegedly sleeping with Rogue and stalemating Galactus.
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  12. #27
    Senior Member Zen-aku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    The pathetic:
    1)The Mary-Suing of Wanda, still. Your friendly neighborhood frequently manipulated genocidal damsel in distress has found yet another true love and has a master plan to save the day. A mutant school named after her? REALLY? That's like the fictional equivalent of the Hitler school for Young Jews.
    You Weren't Supposed to take The School Thign seriously, Wanda Is hardly a sue for being competent



    2) Continuing to use Rogue to prop up Wanda's story, which is essentially what this book is. Instead of giving equal voice to both sides, RR has portrayed the X-Men side of the equation in a strongly unflattering light with the "killer" Wolverine, the loud-mouthed, unreasonable and brash Rogue, and the non-entity, Shiro. Havok is the only one to get a positive spin, and he preaches assimilation. A writer with such a poor understanding of the minority metaphor and the issues such a group would face with society as a whole has no business writing a title which uses that as the foundation for its premise.
    Wolvreine "The Killer" Isn't unflattering cause He feels bad about it, and has shown a willingness to accept his mistakes.

    Sorry Your don't Like How he's using rogue, But considering how obnoxious the X-men and certain fans have been Playing he Mutant card, it's nice to see a representation of that idocy get showed for what it really is.

    RR Dose understand the issues, He Just isn't Tackling it in the "X-men are always right about every thing" BS.
    I'm so bored with this martyrdom routine, this halo all you X-men love to polish. Self-described soldiers adorned in an "X" with no dedication to what it actually stands for.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Nobody is saying you have to like Wanda, but at some point you just have to let it go. Remember that the MU is not real, nobody was actually hurt and you don't need to hold anyone accountable for their actions unless doing so would actually make for an interesting story in its own right. M-Day happened almost a decade ago, most people who read it forgot about it a long time ago. At some point all the stragglers who cling to it are going to have to let it go as well, or at least accept the fact that you're never going to get the resolution you want out of it.
    I would agree if M-Day's consequences weren't so huge and long-lasting. It's basically defined everything that came after, including this book. It's not like anyone is demanding that Remender acknowledge some obscure trivia for direct impact.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starclops View Post
    I would agree if M-Day's consequences weren't so huge and long-lasting. It's basically defined everything that came after, including this book. It's not like anyone is demanding that Remender acknowledge some obscure trivia for direct impact.
    Sure, but the thing is that AvX was meant to definitively close the book on that era of comics, and ending reversed most of the effects of M-Day in fairly dramatic fashion. And I'm not sure why people are so eager to revisit the Decimation era, creatively it was hardly a golden age for the X-Men, most of the new ideas they pushed out flopped pretty hard and the franchise was teetering on the brink of irrelevance most of the way. It's easy to look back now and talk about what you liked from that period, but for the most part people hated that direction and were begging for it to end almost from the get go.

  15. #30
    Veteran Member Punisher284's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2k View Post
    So a couple of people died falling out of the sky and drowning some over exaggerations about Scarlet Witch. Mutants are humans so I don't think genocide can even apply to them just turning into humans.
    Um, most Mutants consider themselves to be a separate race, and they've been treated that way in the comics for a long time. Therefore, it would qualify as genocide. Also, even if they are humans, specifically targeting a PARTICULAR GROUP of humans (mutants in this case) also counts as genocide.

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