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  1. #211
    Senior Member SNascimento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    I promise you, Diana NEVER got her chance to be the only Leaguer who mattered. Neither did Superman. The whole show was "The Adventures of Batgod........oh, and those other people are here too."

    Compare how many times Bruce was the only reason the League didn't die to how many times Bruce contributed to the team's success in no meaningful way (disregarding the seasons where he barely showed up) and Bruce still comes out looking like a god.
    You remember that without Superman the world was destroyed in like a month, right?

    I do hate ridiculous batgod moments as much as the next reasonable person, but I don't think JLA did that.
    "Perfection... sometimes it's our worst enemy. I tried to be perfect once... decided to just try to be better. Found a good way to start that... is by accepting who you are."

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    1.) That episode (like just about all portrayals of Diana in that show) was utter crap. Diana's resistant to magic. It was just an excuse to let Batgod be Wonder Woman's knight in shining armor.
    That version of Diana wasn't, and I seem to recall that resistance never being up to snuff whenever Circe was involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    3.) Superspeed exists. As always with magic types: if the guy you're targeting can fly up and smack you down faster than you can think "I wanna turn this guy into a pig", much less call on your power and start doing it, then the ability to turn Superman into a pig doesn't mean much. None of the gods have shown much in the way of superspeed. Maybe Artemis. Or Hermes if he gets involved.
    Superspeed isn't (or rather shouldn't) be a superpower that automatically enables the user to trump anything they face. It can be fine normally, but I'd prefer someone with 'God of' in their title to be above 'speed stomps'; Hades vs. Justice League springs to mind as something like this done properly.
    Besides, how the gods think and at what speeds hasn't been explained. Plus, Hera's turning of the Amazons and other similar transformations could have been done in the blink of an eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    4.) Superman's the greatest hero of them all. If anyone can find a way to beat those odds, it's him.
    Tbh, I hope he doesn't. Let Diana be the expert when it comes to Greek Gods and other magical menaces, Supes can have the aliens.
    Last edited by Outside_85; 10-23-2013 at 08:54 PM.

  3. #213
    Senior Member Vanguard01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangleo61288 View Post
    Batman did care about her, and he was interested in her. He just didn't want anything bad to happen to her.
    The ordinary mortal in a fancy suit with a purely human rogue's gallery is worried that the super-powerful demigoddess would have something bad happen to her if they started dating? LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by dangleo61288 View Post
    She stole the armor because the Earth was in danger and her mother did nothing. So what she should have done let humanity die off. She was young and learning.
    And I suppose doing that whole REASONING thing about which we talk so much to get Hippolyta to change her mind was just out of the question. Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by dangleo61288 View Post
    Circe turned Diana into a pig in order to get revenge on Hippolyta. She had no reason to turn Batman into a pig. And Batman because he CARES for WW. He brought Zatanna along hoping her powers can match Circe.
    No reason except that she hates ALL MEN on general principle? Now here comes one arrogant little man and his mortal witch, thinking HE can foil her plans?

    Quote Originally Posted by dangleo61288 View Post
    He was more experience than the others. And was serving his role as the team's strategist. He studies and finds his opponents flaw. That why his is on the Justice League.
    Once again, watch every episode and keep a tally of how many episodes where he ended up being the only member of the team who ultimately mattered. As opposed to Geoff Johns' Justice League now, where Bats hasn't yet been the only reason the team survived. He's still important. He's just not the be-all-end-all anymore. Way better.
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  4. #214
    Senior Member Vanguard01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Tbh, I hope he doesn't. Let Diana be the expert when it comes to Greek Gods and other magical menaces, Supes can have the aliens.
    He's the one being challenged here. He has to win, because odds are Diana won't be allowed to help him. Thus her expertise here isn't really relevant.

    I'm with you in general terms: Diana SHOULD be the mythology expert. But Superman can win one fight against gods without taking that away from Diana. Just like Diana can beat the Khund without usurping Clark's place as the "alien expert."
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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  5. #215
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    Diana has been established as resistant to magic previously. Not in New 52 yet, I'll admit. Superman's allergy to magic is apparently being downplayed a bit in the New 52.

    When I ask myself "What can gods do?" I go to my mythology books. If I see an example of a given god doing something that even SEEMS like the effect of which I'm thinking, then I tend to roll with it. There's also the matter of considering a god's "Purviews." What does the god in question actually have dominion over? Yes, as slvn reminds me, Apollo HAS turned people into lesser life forms before, so MAYBE he can turn Clark into a pig. But I consider it a stretch to say that a god who holds dominion over the sun, art, poetry, healing, and prophecy can just wave his hand and turn the greatest hero of all time into a pig.
    You took the "pig" transformation too far. I was using that episode as an example of being turned "into something else other than human". Apollo could turn Superman into a SUNflower, a Tree, or kiss him on the forehead and remove his powers as he did to Hera. Well..... don't know if he'd "kiss" him.. but you get the drift. Don't stick to it like the pig statement. Also, something else to consider: Superman may have an "allergy" to magic, but magic is not his "Kryptonite". Kryptonite is his kryptonite. Someone made a good argument about this on the old DCMBoards once, they actually made sense!


    Superman "feels" the tap on the shoulder just like he "feels" the impact of the cannonball. Neither of these touches do him any damage, however, so that's why he's unhurt by them. And a cannon impact can still knock him for a loop. That missile in SM&WW #1 apparently didn't injure Diana, but it sure as hell rang her bell badly enough to drop her into the ocean. Nerve reception and damage are two very different things.
    I will say this in the only form I can present it, as an "opinion": That was unadulterated Bulls**t. Ok, I'll go with Wonder Woman getting hit by a missile and not getting killed... No problem!!!!!... but then take off those ridiculous bracelets because I sure as hell don't want to see her deflecting bullets with them as if they were going to hurt her when a missile from a war-ship can't even kill her. That was just like Rucka having her jump into Lava and going into radiation and coming out of it alive. Superman? Ok. Wonder Woman? Ehhh... NO. But yet, there it is!


    And using superspeed to smack someone down before they can think to attack you makes all the sense in the world. Your powers are just like a gun at your side.

    You have to make the decision to reach for the gun, grab it, pull it from the holster, take aim, and fire. A speedster can rush in and attack you before you even get to the "grab it" stage. Same thing with a power. You have to decide which power you're using, select your target, then trigger the power. A speedster can hit you long before you can make that process.
    Way understood!!.. However, If that were consistent, every Flash issue wouldn't last longer than 1 panel. The old Flash argument: If used properly HE would be the one with a cape and an S on his chest.

    How is the story served by Superman being humiliated in front of Diana's family? He's the greatest hero OF ALL TIME. For him to go down in ignominious defeat to a bunch of mass-murdering psychopathic monsters kinda defeats the whole "He overcomes all things" aspect of Superman, doncha think?
    It would be served best by not portraying a physical fight with the gods. I still don't understand how Wonder Woman can defeat some of them, but again... I've been told not to ask those kinds of questions. :O)


    Especially seeing as how this fight is happening so the gods get to pass some kind of judgement over whether or not Diana should even be "allowed" to date Clark, having him lose makes no sense. So in your scenario, Apollo defeats Clark with the greatest of ease, he and the other gods have a good long laugh at his expense, Apollo turns to Diana and says "He's pathetic. Dump him," and Diana's going to listen? Superman and Wonder Woman ends in issue 2? Sorry, doesn't work. First? Diana doesn't give a FLYING CRAP what Apollo thinks about her love life. Second? Even Diana made it perfectly clear that she is not Apollo's subject and will not listen to any judgement that he passes even IF Clark loses. Third? Apollo and the other Azzarello-Olympians are in DESPERATE need of being humbled and taught that they're no longer relevant in the world anymore, whereas Superman and Wonder Woman are now the future.
    It WOULD be very demeaning for Superman under the hypothetical idea that he'd lose to one of her villains. I suspect it will be the same in the very next issue of SM/WW #2 when she gets the crap kicked out of her by one of HIS villains. Unless someone or something interferes that's exactly what Doomsday is going to do. he's going to say "Hello, Broom" and sweep the floor with her. History has taught us that a villain always wins the fight in the first appearance! :O)

    Not only Superman, but Wonder Woman shouldn't even be compared to the gods either. I think the gods should be felt and not seen. I especially thought so during Perez's years and any time they appeared in their full toga regalia or Simone's "superheroish" costumes she made for them. That was a hearty laugh. They should be made unreachable. In fact, the fact that they're even going to bother in "judging" whether Superman is fit enough for her is a joke. This is not Aunt Lucy and Uncle Fred visiting from Detroit... don't these gods have anything else better to do?


    I'm a big fan of a tabletop RPG known as Scion. In this game, you play a Scion: the children of the gods. Yes, absolutely you should be thinking of Percy Jackson right now.

    Scion uses a power ranking system simply referred to as "Legend." Your "Legend Ranking" which is from levels 2-12 (Legend 1 is merely for mortals who are unusually special). The effectiveness of your powers on other Legendary beings is determined by your Legend Ranking. Translation? There are many Scion powers that simply don't work on a Legendary being whose Legend Ranking exceeds yours. In other words, a Legend 2 starting Scion has access to some divine powers. Those powers, however, will not work at all if he or she tries to use them against, say, Big Daddy Zeus (who is obviously Legend 12).

    Now obviously, DC doesn't use the Scion Legend system, but it can still be applied here. Apollo is a Legendary being (in Scion, he is also Legend 12, most of the major gods are). Superman, however, is ALSO a Legendary being. An argument could be made that by this point, more people know who Superman is than know who Apollo is. The weight of Superman's "Legend" could simply be assumed as meaning, yeah, he really CAN go toe-to-toe with an almighty "god" who doesn't even have any significant worshippers anymore.

    Simple truth. Apollo and the other Olympians are a bunch of has-beens and their true glory days are behind them. Superman is the future. Wonder Woman is the future. Apollo doesn't matter anymore, except in his own minds.

    Oh! Also? As I said, since Azarello just HAD to turn the Olympians into a bunch of murderous monsters with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, that means that they're bad guys. Superman and Wonder Woman beat up bad guys. A lot. No matter how powerful.
    Sorry I don't have insightful commentary on the RPG issue.. never been an avid fan much less player but I understand what you're saying in general. I also understand your statement regarding the gods being "has-beens". IF this works like pre-Flashpoint it can play a key role in how "powerful" they are (whatever 'powerful' implies in god terms). All the more reason I'm not really impressed by them. The only one out of the whole bunch that I've been impressed with power-wise has been Apollo and to some extent also Hades who seems to run a tight ship in the underworld. I suspect the next few issues will be a little more specific with what they can and can not do... especially with Strife TRYING to kill wonder woman next issue.
    Last edited by RMAN63; 10-23-2013 at 09:49 PM.

  6. #216
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    You know I'm one who likes the mystery and doesn't think the gods should have set boundaries. But, I hope you think I'd say "don't ask those kinds of questions. You can always ask the questions! I just, in some cases, don't want there to be definite answers. So, I agree with you that the writers could certainly have Apollo deal with Superman by magical means, perhaps without even having a real fight.

    It would even be consistent with what we've seen before. We've seen him react and fight quick enough to bet Wonder Woman. And that was before he was Heaven, and also, since he was fighting a demigod he might not have been abel to use all the powers he could have used agains mortals (including, I presume, aliens.) I can't think of a reason why the writer couldn't decide that his fire is magic, or that he's at least as adept at transforming people if he wants to as Hera is, since he was able to transform her into a mortal. Incidentally, mythically he was known to inflict (as well as cure) disease; maybe he could shoot Superman with an arrow and inflict him with the Kandorian flu or something.
    It's OK to like the mystery of whether the gods have boundaries or not. I think it's a cool idea as well, I really do. But then, don't have them fighting with someone who DOES have boundaries and get two different results such as Apollo vs. WW and Artemis vs. WW. He kicked HER azz, and Wonder Woman kicked Artemis's azz. Things like that tend to make me ask silly questions like what would happen if Apollo fought with Hades and one lost over the other one... that beckons the "boundaries" subject in my head again! :O)))))

    I'll also ask this: In issue 11 or so, when Apollo fired at Wonder Woman she ducked and the beam of sunlight hit Lennox whom did NOT die, yet Moon's punch to the chest put him out for the count! (remember?)

    If you do this in a comic book typically known for super-heroics, nerds like me are going to come around and ask questions!

  7. #217
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    And yet Bruce/Diana shippers ENDLESSLY use this show as a point of reference for why Bruce is the only man for Diana.
    And how that has ANY validity in this conversation? Plus my problem with your argument was this line, 'I just hated seeing Diana panting after ANY guy like a dog. Especially not when said guy couldn't spare the time of day for her.' Which is clearly incorrect to say the least. Fans can say whatever they want to, it doesn't change the reality. Heck there are even some SMWW romance fanfic based on that show, why would that would have any effect to this conversation as well.

    1. Not a slave costume. Just a revealing dress. Men like boobs, you know?
    We do, of course, many of us. At least you didn't argue about her treatment.

    2.Good thing that WASN'T Diana in that scene. At least she wasn't the Diana who actually matters. That was an alternate universe Diana. Nothing she did or says means anything. The only Diana who mattered showed no interest in Clark aside from friendship.
    Ah, so when this supposed Alternate Supes turns evil fans don't object? Don't start muttering 'batgod', 'batgod' 'batgod?' Congratulations, you just said the fans gripe about the evil Clark cross elseworlds is redundant because those Clarks don't matter.

    And also, this is DCAU, I believe AU stands for Alternate Universe.

    So? "Hi, I'm Diana. I'm here to be an ambassador for my people." (Except I'm really not. I'm actually a criminal on the run from my people.) Her entire presence in the show was based on a lie and and act of theft/treason.
    For one to be considered a criminal, those charges are needed to be brought up. I don't think they ever were, were they?

    Her entire presence on the show was based on an utterly selfless act, out of profound kindness. And like any kindness, that was devoid of any personal gratification, because her mother had assured her that the Amazons will be kept safe by their gods. She came out into the world, not to save herself, or her people, but the world itself. She sacrificed her entire self worth till that day with that singular decision. Diana is the only character in the supposed Trinity who takes decisions, regularly so, on the basis of what is greater good. And this, undoubtedly was for greater good. Whether she suffered consequences for her action is a different thing, fact is she knew what may be waiting for her if she did it, and still she did. All, for greater good. She chose humanity over paradise.

    She isn't an ambassador at beginning of the show. She works out of The Watchtower. First she gets exiled and then the exile is revoked, after that I believe she can be considered as the ambassador of her people. Though I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned.

    Yeah, and all you have to do is choke down about a hundred episodes of "uber-bitch" Wonder Woman to get to it.
    First of all I think the total run of JL/JLU was about ninety one, not counting the three episodes of Static Shock.

    And second of all, seriously? You gonna go there? There are enough episodes in between the beginning and the end where Diana's non -warrior's traits have been accentuated. Maid of Honor, The Savage Time, Here After, Starcrossed, For the Man Who Has Everything, Kids Stuff, The Once and The Future Thing, To Another Shore, The Balance, just to name a few.

    A woman who's resistant to magic falls under Circe's magic instantaneously and has to be rescued from ordinary mortals who want to carve her up into bacon, and yet an arrogant prick with some gadgets is the only one who can save the day? The whole episode was designed from the ground up to prop up Batman at Diana's expense.
    So to follow that logic, would you say that in the present run by Johns Diana is used to prop up Superman, the presently angsty emo boy?
    Or in the Kingdom Come for that matter (Waid actually admitted of using Diana as a plot device), the Supes there, the reclusive emo man?

    A mortal triumphing over something way over his weight class is the most common trope in fantasy. An under dog defeating someone way over their weight-class happen right and left, front and back, in every other book of fantasy, in and out of comic book genre. Again, he sang for her, not like he defeated her in hand-to hand combat. He has a deep baritone, and like most people he knows a song or two, how is that possibly any invocation to that frustrating word?

    As someone mentioned above, her resistance to magic were never actually mentioned in the show, and even so, with Circe involved, that ever hardly mattered.

    "Countless times?" Yeah, compare that number to how many times Bruce looked like the only Leaguer who mattered, and I think you'll note a certain discrepancy.
    I promise you, Diana NEVER got her chance to be the only Leaguer who mattered. Neither did Superman. The whole show was "The Adventures of Batgod........oh, and those other people are here too."

    Compare how many times Bruce was the only reason the League didn't die to how many times Bruce contributed to the team's success in no meaningful way (disregarding the seasons where he barely showed up) and Bruce still comes out looking like a god.
    Oh this is just bull-dung, and I think you know it. Clark appeared in more episodes than Bruce, who in turn appeared only in couple of more episodes than Diana. The leader of the team was actually John, it has been mentioned several times. Clark and Diana together act as the face of JL, where Bruce is a part timer.

    Unless you have a problem with the niche of individual characters, then I will say this is a very wrong medium to read.

    Look at the some episodes mentioned above, I'm sure you will get the picture.

    I will give you that Bruce is the protagonist of the entire DCAU, but calling the show "The Adventures of Batgod........oh, and those other people are here too." is just plainly and distinctively incorrect.

    As I said, every character has their moment in the sun, and the moment of embarrassment, AND the moment of utter silliness.

    I don't demand perfection. I demand a Wonder Woman who represents what Wonder Woman is supposed to be. A liar and a thief who is a belligerent man-hater (except for that one guy in black who's actually the biggest jerk on the team, he's DREAMY!) and an overconfident ass is not who she's supposed to be.
    And then there is this. This is so absurdly incorret to call her a man hater. Yes she has her prejudice, she bound to. While compassion is an inherent trait, prejudice is a developed one. She grew up in a society which has serious issues against men, with legitimate reasons, and without a single thing to provide an argument for the contrary. Why wouldn't she have that trace of prejudice in her? Only after she goes to the 'Man's World', works beside some of the most remarkable 'men' in the world, she learns, and understands the duality of things, her standpoint changes. And she evolves. I will take that evolution of the character over Bruce's and Clark's any given day, who come tailor made from their own shows, and remain static throughout.

    By the way, she shares different aspect of friendship with different characters in the show, with Flash, with Clark, with Hawkgirl, with MM, even with GL. One of the biggest point for the show is that inter-personal relationship between characters.. The 'man-hater' terminology doesn't even apply here.

    And yes, she develops an amount feelings for Bruce. Why wouldn't she? Moreover, why couldn't she? Bruce is a remarkable 'human' being, one of a kind, a man who runs alongside the gods, and is, by certain aspects of that term, a god. A fellow warrior, a kindred. And how is it any different than Perez's Diana having a school girl crush for Clark? That conversation on the rooftop actually accentuate both characters in DCAU. Diana is open and honest and forthcoming with her feelings. And though those feelings are mutual, Timm's Bruce is tired, and weary, and broken beyond repair. But either way, considering that rogue gallery regularly gets one up against the rest of JL cross media, (with some of them hurting some of the closest people around Bruce) those concerns were legitimate, and founded, if ultimately an over-estimate.
    Last edited by Arjun Ethaniel; 10-24-2013 at 01:01 AM.

  8. #218
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Am I in the right thread?

    Just read it right now. Pretty interesting issue. I enjoy dialogue-dense stories once in a while, and I'm a little hopeful we'll get a payoff. I just hope it doesn't drag. I liked Hermes' parting shot at the end. Zing!

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    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    Men like boobs, you know?
    It's true: I can vouch for that.
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    It's OK to like the mystery of whether the gods have boundaries or not. I think it's a cool idea as well, I really do. But then, don't have them fighting with someone who DOES have boundaries and get two different results such as Apollo vs. WW and Artemis vs. WW. He kicked HER azz, and Wonder Woman kicked Artemis's azz. Things like that tend to make me ask silly questions like what would happen if Apollo fought with Hades and one lost over the other one... that beckons the "boundaries" subject in my head again! :O)))))

    I'll also ask this: In issue 11 or so, when Apollo fired at Wonder Woman she ducked and the beam of sunlight hit Lennox whom did NOT die, yet Moon's punch to the chest put him out for the count! (remember?)

    If you do this in a comic book typically known for super-heroics, nerds like me are going to come around and ask questions!
    Sure. What fun would a mystery be if it didn't make us ask questions? I ask these kind of questions too; I just think it's a good thing that the comic leaves the answers open and doesn't take away the fun of asking. No that it could really stop us anyway. As long as they don't put out a Who's Who on Olympus book and list all the gods' "stats," I'll be happy.

    But then, don't have them fighting with someone who DOES have boundaries and get two different results such as Apollo vs. WW and Artemis vs. WW. He kicked HER azz, and Wonder Woman kicked Artemis's azz.
    And I think it's fair to say that Apollo has been depicted as more powerful than Artemis. But that still leaves plenty of room for mystery. After all, once in a while (and even, more or less, in issue 11), the moon eclipses the sun--so maybe Moon could occasionally eclipse Sun. (By the way,maybe Artemis will get her chance to eclipse Apollo yet. I think it's interesting how she and Dionysus seem to be getting closer. I wonder if there could be more Dionysus than meets the eye; he seem to be the least of the gods, but it would be just like Azz to have him come of nowhere and emerge as one of the most important.. In philosophy, there's a big opposition between "Apollonian thinking (rational, dispassionate) and Dionysian feeling (anti-rational, passionate); so it would be interesting if Dionysus emerged as Apollo's rival--and maybe Moon would join forces with Dio.)

    And when you get beyond just "which god can beat which god in a fight?," their powers get more interesting--and mysterious. For example, since Artemis shape shifts while talking with Demeter, why doesn't she shape shift when she's fighting Wonder Woman? Could she shape shift in a battle with Superman? Could she do other things to him--like turn him into a deer and chase him around a forest, that the Olympian "rules" won't let her do to Diana? (There do appear to be some mysterious rules--which might be more like "laws of nature" than legislated laws that can be broken; Strife mentions that she hates the rules and that one of them is that only the Twelve Oympians--not a lesser god like her--can travel uninvited between the realms. So, seeing that the gods seem to rely mostly on physical force when fighting each other but have other ways of dealing with people lie the Amazons, I wouldn't be surprised if that has something to do with "rules" about what they can do to each other.)

    But back to your question about whether Hades could put up a fight against Apollo--I think that he probably could within his own hell. Elsewhere, maybe not, but maybe it would depend on how much "shade" was available for Hades to work with; for example, if Apollo was feeling the kind of regret and frustrated desire that seems to be the stuff of Hades' realm, maybe Hades could use that bit of "hell" against him.

    In terms of powers that go beyond physical fighting, Diana is probably the weakest--for now. But she's also the youngest and the only one we know of who artificially represses her powers, and also probably the only one who has never received formal worship (which might be a source of power for the gods). I don't expect Wonder Woman to suddenly start shape shifting or turning armies to stone--that would just be weird--but I wouldn't be surprised if its at least hinted that she has the potential to do such things.

    In terms of raw physical power that can be used against the gods, though, I think Diana with bracelets off can match any of them--including the First Born. As the First Born himself points out, Diana "hesitates" when fighting him, because, even though she has uncuffed, she doesn't want to become completely ruthless and possibly lose control. Had she not hesitated, she might have KO'ed the FB instead of (momentarily) the other way around.

    There--that "nerdy" enough for you?

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNascimento View Post
    You remember that without Superman the world was destroyed in like a month, right?

    I do hate ridiculous batgod moments as much as the next reasonable person, but I don't think JLA did that.

    Oh, no, it did. Plenty of those moments.

    Off the top of my head:

    -Batman dodging Darkseid's Omega Beams
    -Batman jumping on Darkseid's back during Darkseid's battle with Superman on two occasions. He should have been paste both times.
    -Start of one episode, the JLA was fighting some robot. Superman rips open its panel and then yells for Batman to disable it with a Batarang. WTF? Why didn't he just use his heat vision?

    There are others, but these just came to mind first.

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    Senior Member SNascimento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman Priime View Post
    Oh, no, it did. Plenty of those moments.

    Off the top of my head:

    -Batman dodging Darkseid's Omega Beams
    -Batman jumping on Darkseid's back during Darkseid's battle with Superman on two occasions. He should have been paste both times.
    -Start of one episode, the JLA was fighting some robot. Superman rips open its panel and then yells for Batman to disable it with a Batarang. WTF? Why didn't he just use his heat vision?

    There are others, but these just came to mind first.
    Yes, there were some ridiculous, but I'd say there are inevitable. You give any series enough time and they are bound to happen. What I meant is that it didn't strike me as a regular "feature" of the animated series.
    "Perfection... sometimes it's our worst enemy. I tried to be perfect once... decided to just try to be better. Found a good way to start that... is by accepting who you are."

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard01 View Post
    Ah! There it is! I didn't like the Batgod worship in JL, so it must be all about "I wanted Diana with Superman." Nope! I just hated seeing Diana panting after ANY guy like a dog. Especially not when said guy couldn't spare the time of day for her.

    Wonder Woman was a liar and a thief in that series. She STOLE the Wonder Woman costume. She went to Man's World in defiance of her mother and her queen. She was needlessly belligerent and arrogant beyond words.

    So, the most powerful woman in the DCU can't save herself from a big bad witch. She has to be rescued by the almighty "This woman can turn one of the greatest superheroines in the world into a pig, but she can't do the same to me because reasons" Batgod. He spends an entire episode trying to save the poor porcine damsel in distress from her terrible plight. Even having to rescue her from being made into Wonder Bacon.

    Oh! And so Batman can make the entire Justice League look like a bunch of rank amateurs in this show. He can pull solutions to problems out of his ass with no difficulty. He has all the answers and is ready for every situation........Oh and he's a fantastic singer to boot? Yeah, no Batgod there at all.
    I was thinking about this today.

    If we accept that Wonder Woman is all about equality, then sometimes that has to mean equality to be rescued. Or even made fun of, as happens with Bruce when they all get changed to kids. Mal Reynolds went through his fair share of both of these and folks never thought less of him.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    And how that has ANY validity in this conversation?
    Soooooo, Diana DIDN'T practically through herself at Bruce and have him all but ignore her? Hm! Maybe I was watching a different show than you did.

    So, later on, Bruce warmed to her a little bit. Yay? Diana still made a fool of herself to no good purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    Ah, so when this supposed Alternate Supes turns evil fans don't object? Don't start muttering 'batgod', 'batgod' 'batgod?' Congratulations, you just said the fans gripe about the evil Clark cross elseworlds is redundant because those Clarks don't matter.

    And also, this is DCAU, I believe AU stands for Alternate Universe.
    First of all I despise the entire "Multiverse" concept. As a concept. In any media.

    Because of this, my attitude when alternate universes come into play, I ALWAYS refer to the REAL universe (the universe the story ACTUALLY follows) as "the only universe that matters." What's that? Earth 2 is in trouble? Yeah, why do I care again? Earth Prime is the universe that matters to me. Who cares if some other version of Superman and Wonder Woman died? The only Superman and Wonder Woman who matter are still alive and well. In Injustice, the alternate Clark and Diana are just some writer's contrivance to justify the story. They don't matter. They're only there to get their asses kicked by the REAL heroes. I couldn't care less that some alternate Diana wants to play Lady MacBeth with Superman. The real Diana was just Clark's friend and someone who ACTUALLY represented the values Diana is supposed to embody.

    Oh, and by the way? DCAU stands for DC Animated Universe. Not Alternate Universe. It just means the DC universes depicted in animation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    For one to be considered a criminal, those charges are needed to be brought up. I don't think they ever were, were they?
    Hippolyta refused to power up the lasso for Diana to punish her for stealing it. And as you just said, SHE GOT EXILED. That's a punishment for a CRIME. Which makes her a criminal. Okay, not getting her favorite toy charged up and not being allowed to come home may not be quite the same as the prison sentence or execution that treason usually levies, but hey, it's good to be the queen's daughter.

    Diana still became Wonder Woman under completely false pretenses. The fact that she in no way resembled Wonder Woman beyond her costume for episode after episode didn't help this either. No, she wasn't an ambassador. Ambassadors have class and social graces. They don't spend dozens of episodes talking down to people for having a penis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    And second of all, seriously? You gonna go there? There are enough episodes in between the beginning and the end where Diana's non -warrior's traits have been accentuated. Maid of Honor, The Savage Time, Here After, Starcrossed, For the Man Who Has Everything, Kids Stuff, The Once and The Future Thing, To Another Shore, The Balance, just to name a few.
    Starcrossed? You mean where she tells Hawkgirl she wanted to let her die on the burning space ship? Where she showed no sympathy AT ALL for her situation? Where she was one of the loudest voices in favor of kicking her off the team?

    For the Man Who Has Everything? That episode where all Diana did was whimper like a puppy while getting her ass handed to her by Mongul? Literally that was her big accomplishment: she bled on Mongul's boots. She spent an entire episode as Mongul's chew toy. All her power and training amounted to precisely NOTHING. She was just there to be rescued by Superman and Batman.

    I could go on.

    But yeah, Diana may have gotten better near the end of the show. By that point I was so turned off by "uber-bitch" Diana that by the time she started to REALLY turn around, I was like "Too little, too late, DC." Diana's one of my all-time favorite characters, and that show made me HATE her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    A mortal triumphing over something way over his weight class is the most common trope in fantasy. An under dog defeating someone way over their weight-class happen right and left, front and back, in every other book of fantasy, in and out of comic book genre. Again, he sang for her, not like he defeated her in hand-to hand combat.
    Circe hates men. ALL MEN. Without exception. BatMAN shows up to challenge her, she doesn't ask him to sing karaoke. She turns him into an animal and/or fries him to a crisp on the spot. That was the stupidest portrayal of Circe that I've ever seen. Batman didn't "defeat her outside his weight class." He used his "Batgod Awesomeness" to charm a woman who should've been utterly immune to it into giving him a contest he could actually win. That scene was ONLY there to put the final exclamation point on "Batman is the GREATEST! Why he can defeat a man-hating goddess just by singing! Whereas that Wonder-chick with all the powers would've been made into bacon without his awesomeness!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    Clark appeared in more episodes than Bruce, who in turn appeared only in couple of more episodes than Diana.

    I will give you that Bruce is the protagonist of the entire DCAU, but calling the show "The Adventures of Batgod........oh, and those other people are here too." is just plainly and distinctively incorrect.

    As I said, every character has their moment in the sun, and the moment of embarrassment, AND the moment of utter silliness.
    And yet damn near EVERY episode wherein Batman appeared, he was THE star of the show, and everyone else was just there to either 1.) Be his pawns to move around the chessboard as he sees fit, or 2.) To stand in awe and watch as Batgod makes them all look like rank, incompetent amateurs.

    And really? So, where was Batman's moment of being utterly helpless and dependent on others for rescue? When was HE the damsel in distress who almost got turned into bacon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    And then there is this. This is so absurdly incorret to call her a man hater.
    Sure, she bitches out every guy on the JL for being male, with the exception of Batman: the one guy who was actually acting like a jerk. And why doesn't she bitch out Bruce for being a jerk? Because he's DREAMY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    By the way, she shares different aspect of friendship with different characters in the show, with Flash, with Clark, with Hawkgirl, with MM, even with GL. One of the biggest point for the show is that inter-personal relationship between characters.. The 'man-hater' terminology doesn't even apply here.
    Yeah, she gets friendly.....with the women-folk first because they're not men. And with the other men later, after she has proof that men can be awesome shoved down her throat. The only guy she doesn't crap on is the guy for whom she develops the schoolgirl insta-crush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjun Ethaniel View Post
    And yes, she develops an amount feelings for Bruce. Why wouldn't she? Moreover, why couldn't she?
    Because Bruce is an insensitive jerk who treats everyone around him like crap? Even people he considers part of his "family?"

    Perez-Diana didn't have a "schoolgirl crush" on Clark. She had a brief attraction to him that lasted like two issues before she realized that they wouldn't be good together.

    The argument is still that Batman doesn't want Diana to get hurt by being with him? Yeah, because Wonder Woman has so much to fear from Two-Face or The Riddler. Yeah, Bruce's rogue's gallery is well-known and popular. They're also still weak as hell and couldn't hurt Diana on their best day ever.

    If anything, Diana should be worried about Bruce getting hurt by hanging around with her.
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
    -- Alfred Lord Tennyson --

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I was thinking about this today.

    If we accept that Wonder Woman is all about equality, then sometimes that has to mean equality to be rescued. Or even made fun of, as happens with Bruce when they all get changed to kids. Mal Reynolds went through his fair share of both of these and folks never thought less of him.
    Sure.

    So where are BATMAN'S moments of being the helpless damsel? Where are Batman's moments of being put in danger for our amusement? Where are Batman's moments of absurd weakness and peril?

    Equality cuts both ways.
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
    -- Alfred Lord Tennyson --

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