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  1. #121
    Veteran Member Punisher284's Avatar
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    Plus Kaine, Justice, and Speedball aren't teens.

  2. #122
    American at the Crossroad
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisis View Post
    All of the reasoning behind why Captain Marvel doesn't deserve another shot puzzles me, and so I have to put this all in writing just so someone has said it.

    First, no two books are equivalent unless they feature all the same IP and have the same creative team. You can't even compare Gillen/McKelvie on GenHope vs. Young Avengers, because the IP is completely different. If Marvel sees potential profit on a lower-selling book, there is no reason it needs to compare against or defeat another book that is getting canceled.

    Furthermore, we've seen Marvel double-down on super-vocal fan bases on a few other books in the past couple of years (e.g., X-Factor, Journey Into Mystery, Avengers Academy) even after they fell near or below what we consider to be the cancel threshold. This has proven that (a) books can be tweaked to be profitable on lower sales based on the creative team and (b) some of these books likely do a far higher percentage of digital sales than the equivalent lower-sales book that does not have such a vocal online fanbase.

    (Also, probably (c) - Marvel values organic word-of-mouth to a new generation of comic fans enough to make certain low-performing books valuable as write-off for at least a short amount of time. Gambit, which was equivalent to CM and pretty solid, was missing this X-Factor (pardon the pun).)

    I would agree that re-launching just for the #1 sales spike with all of the same weaknesses in place would probably indicate failure. However, the major critiques leveled at the current run of Captain Marvel were pedestrian plots and inconsistent art - not bad characterization or dialog, and this new iteration solves for both the problems. Also, it is not the typical "new #1 a month later" - it's going on a brief hiatus, both for retooling and to drum up interest.

    Bottom line - Captain Marvel was never going anywhere, and DeConnick likely wasn't either.

    Funny enough, both X-Factor (plus Gambit) AND a swoon-worthy Loki also had new books announced at this convention, and some Avengers Academy characters live on in various new books including the sequel to Arena (another big WoM book).
    To be honest, I see the big difference with this book and something like X-Factor or Avengers Academy is that those books took a LOT longer to get to the lower end threshold and stayed more or less consistent. This current volume sank like a stone in less than a year and with the same writer, there's no indication that the trend can be bucked.

    X-Factor went 149 issues before being canceled and then had a 4 issue second volume before coming back and then went over 100 issues again, but it didn't drop to cancelation type numbers in only 10 months. Similarly, JiM had a steady fanbase, until it didn't and then it was canned ten issues into the new direction. Academy declined slower but eventually got to that point and was canned as well. Captain Marvel debuted at over 40k and dropped more than half of that a year later and didn't even get the bump from a tie-in that a lot of other books normally get, only getting a 4k boost and then a 1k drop.

    Like I said above, I have every issue, but the stories were weak and seemed to be written for people who knew all of the little tidbits about the character's past and that might have lost some people, along with the "art" on the back half. The Monic Rambeau issues were my personal favorites. I have every issue of the last Ms. Marvel series, and that was the only time this character has ever been able to make it past year two and that was with massive exposure from House of M, New Avengers, Mighty Avengers, Secret Invasion, and Civil War and a period where she was getting tie-ins to major events regularly. Man, I miss that series! lol

    Anyway, I don't think this book needs a relaunch with the same writer who also lost over 10k readers in 9 months after taking over Avengers Assemble and who got this one dropped to below 20k so quickly is necessarily the solution. I fully get what you're saying and agree with much of it, mind you, particularly you points on different IP and the like, which I think were well made. I do, however, think that there's no real indication the same writer will be able to right the ship and I think there's a difference between a character who, combining ALL of her series, hasn't even had 100 issues and a series like X-Factor which has had a long 25 year+ history of a fanbase and Peter David who's had a long following as well. I mean, back in October of last year the 245th issue of X-Factor was selling only a few thousand lower than the FIFTH issue of Captain Marvel. So it took the book 5 months to hit close to what it took another book nearly 100 issues (because that volume went 1-50, then began again at 200) to drop to. Longevity doesn't seem to be in the cards with this creative team and it pains me to say that since I like the character very much. I even wrote a piece on my website, pimping the character: http://www.nerdtopiacast.com/2012/08...arvel-captain/ and I loved the hell out of the first few issues, so it's not like I'm a "hater" or any of that.

    But like I said above, they can talk up the "Carol Corps" all they want and mention all the cosplayers at every convention; but if they're not showing up to BUY the issues, that's not going to change. We always hear group x wants more of books headlines by group x and then those books come out...and get ignored unless there's the right creative team nine in ten times. I currently get Batwoman, Captain Marvel, Batgirl, Birds of Prey, Fearless Defenders, Buffy (well, used to, it's over for now), Angel and Faith (same), and formerly got X-23 and Black Widow and I've seen the same sad trend the majority of the time. People need to put their money where their mouths are and I think there's often seemingly a disconnect between the presumed fanbase and the purchasing one, which is what a business needs more of.

    In any case, have a good night. I know we didn't see eye to eye on everything, and possibly won't, but differences of opinion are what make the world go 'round and I'm glad you presented yours without animosity or insults. I can respect that a LOT more than someone trotting out insults! lol

  3. #123
    Junior Member the Nomad's Avatar
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    Elektra, Punisher and Kaine.....everything else at the panel I could definitely do without. It looks like the 2014 Spider house is shaping up to be just like 2013.
    Happy Happy Joy Joy <----------- In case it didn't translate well, that was sarcasm, as well as a throwback. Go Me.
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  4. #124
    Senior Member Dan_Slott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Nomad View Post
    It looks like the 2014 Spider house is shaping up to be just like 2013.
    Considering that for all of 2013 so far, it's been one of Marvel's best performing houses, I'd guess a LOT of the comic buying public are pretty happy about that. ;-)

  5. #125
    Junior Member the Nomad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Slott View Post
    Considering that for all of 2013 so far, it's been one of Marvel's best performing houses, I'd guess a LOT of the comic buying public are pretty happy about that. ;-)
    And most controversial...I think you forgot to add that in there somewhere. ;) Also I see you missed the Ren and Stimpy reference, for shame Mr. Slott, for shame LOL!
    Nothing is True; Everything is Permitted

  6. #126
    Senior Member Dan_Slott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Nomad View Post
    And most controversial...I think you forgot to add that in there somewhere.
    Yes. Because putting out a boring comic would the better option. ;-)

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathieu B View Post
    The New Warriors series looks really cool, especially since it has Scarlet Spider and Yost writing it. If it's 2.99, count me in. I just hope that Yost can come up with a reasonably good justification for Kaine being part of a team...
    If I had to put money on it, I'd say it has to do with Aracely joining the team, and Kaine joining to keep a protective eye on her.
    Superior Spider-Man, Superior Spider-Man Team-Up, Venom, Scarlet Spider, All New X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, Iron Man

  8. #128
    Junior Member the Nomad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Slott View Post
    Yes. Because putting out a boring comic would the better option. ;-)
    To be fair, it's only boring if the writer makes it boring.
    Nothing is True; Everything is Permitted

  9. #129
    Senior Member Darthfury78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisis View Post
    All of the reasoning behind why Captain Marvel doesn't deserve another shot puzzles me, and so I have to put this all in writing just so someone has said it.

    I would agree that re-launching just for the #1 sales spike with all of the same weaknesses in place would probably indicate failure. However, the major critiques leveled at the current run of Captain Marvel were pedestrian plots and inconsistent art - not bad characterization or dialog, and this new iteration solves for both the problems. Also, it is not the typical "new #1 a month later" - it's going on a brief hiatus, both for retooling and to drum up interest.

    Bottom line - Captain Marvel was never going anywhere, and DeConnick likely wasn't either.
    I think that for the first story arc for Captain Marvel, Kelly Sue DeConnick should have capitalized on Carol's friendship with Peter Parker and Jessica Drew. Imagine if their team-up adventure had that classic Three's Company vibe to their character? It might have been cool to learn that both Carol and Jessica are attracted to Peter Parker, just like Janet Wood and Chrissy Snow were attracted to Jack Tripper. Carol and Jessica's relationship to Peter Parker could have easily mirrored Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy. Too bad that Marvel doesn't want to use this angle to bring in a larger reading audience to Captain Marvel. I do not buy into the notion that Carol Danvers views Peter Parker as a kid brother. That's like saying that Wonder Woman sees Superman as a brother.

    The following quote is by Albert Ching, Senior Editor:

    Responding to a question about the nature of the Captain Marvel/Spider-Man relationship, DeConnick said, "They tried flirting, and it was so lame. 'Wow, that totally does not work.' But they have like a noogie relationship. It's like a little brother type of thing." "I think she legitimately likes him," Wacker added. Slott counters: "But that Spider-Man is dead."

  10. #130
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    I can't understand why they had to announce Captain Marvel's new series at the Spider Panel. Shouldn't this announcement fitted to take place at the Marvel Heroes/Inhumanity panel?

  11. #131
    Senior Member Darthfury78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minerboh View Post
    I can't understand why they had to announce Captain Marvel's new series at the Spider Panel. Shouldn't this announcement fitted to take place at the Marvel Heroes/Inhumanity panel?
    Captain Marvel is Stephen Wacker's favorite character. I only wished that he would bring in Spider-Woman, Black Widow, and She-Hulk under his Spider-Man panel.

  12. #132
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    I'm surprised that people are complaining about these announcements.

    The comparisons between Black Widow and Elektra make no sense as they are different characters. That's like saying Marvel shouldn't print Spider-man because there's a Captain America series.

    Captain Marvel was a pretty good series that suffered from rotating artists of varying quality, that's something that seems to be corrected this time.

    An Elektra and New Warrior series from Wells and Punisher from Edmonson sounds like gold and I definitely look forward to trying these out.
    Last edited by USERNAME TAKEN; 10-14-2013 at 01:21 AM.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  13. #133
    Member OrganicUrban's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protege View Post
    All right then, which of the teens from those series would you have on this team?

    All the former members in Addition to speedball and Justice: Rage, Timeslip, Silhouette, 2nd Night Trasher, Namorita, Helix, Turbo, slapstick...

    We all know how long New Warriors lasted when they replaced original members with new characters like Microbe or the former x-Kids.

  14. #134
    New Member Noelmark's Avatar
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    I don't mind David Lopez's art myself. His females look like supermodels compared to Filip Andrades. Hopefully Lopez is rotating with someone else (please!).

  15. #135
    New Member Noelmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisis View Post
    All of the reasoning behind why Captain Marvel doesn't deserve another shot puzzles me, and so I have to put this all in writing just so someone has said it.

    First, no two books are equivalent unless they feature all the same IP and have the same creative team. You can't even compare Gillen/McKelvie on GenHope vs. Young Avengers, because the IP is completely different. If Marvel sees potential profit on a lower-selling book, there is no reason it needs to compare against or defeat another book that is getting canceled.

    Furthermore, we've seen Marvel double-down on super-vocal fan bases on a few other books in the past couple of years (e.g., X-Factor, Journey Into Mystery, Avengers Academy) even after they fell near or below what we consider to be the cancel threshold. This has proven that (a) books can be tweaked to be profitable on lower sales based on the creative team and (b) some of these books likely do a far higher percentage of digital sales than the equivalent lower-sales book that does not have such a vocal online fanbase.

    (Also, probably (c) - Marvel values organic word-of-mouth to a new generation of comic fans enough to make certain low-performing books valuable as write-off for at least a short amount of time. Gambit, which had a similar launh and sales dropoff to CM, was missing this X-Factor (pardon the pun).)

    I would agree that re-launching just for the #1 sales spike with all of the same weaknesses in place would probably indicate failure. However, the major critiques leveled at the current run of Captain Marvel were pedestrian plots and inconsistent art - not bad characterization or dialog, and this new iteration solves for both the problems. Also, it is not the typical "new #1 a month later" - it's going on a brief hiatus, both for retooling and to drum up interest.

    Bottom line - Captain Marvel was never going anywhere, and DeConnick likely wasn't either.

    Funny enough, both X-Factor (plus Gambit) AND a swoon-worthy Loki also had new books announced at this convention, and some Avengers Academy characters live on in various new books including the sequel to Arena (another big WoM book).
    Hate to be the one to say it but don't you think the fact that DeConnick is the partner of one of Marvels Big writers probably gives her more chances than someone else (less well connected). Also Marvel has a clear push at the moment to increase their number of female readers and Captain Marvel is central to this. So her book will get more chances than others, especially if there might be a possible movie in the works.

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