View Poll Results: Was killing Norman Osborn at the end of Amazing #122 a mistake?

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  • Yes, it was a huge mistake to take away one of the biggest baddies in Spidey's world

    5 8.62%
  • No, it was a great idea that opened the door for new stories and characters

    53 91.38%
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  1. #46
    Senior Member RyanParkerMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols View Post
    I completely disagree with this. Harry's vendetta against Peter was far more personal than it ever was with Norman. Norman hated Spider-Man and Peter by extension. Harry was the exact opposite, he hated Peter and Spider-Man by extension. It was an awesome dynamic, being that they had been best friends. The stories collectively called 'The Osborn Legacy' in Spectacular Spider-Man make up, in my opinion, one of the greatest arcs in Spidey's history. JM DeMatteis and Sal Buscema absolutely NAILED Harry's insanity, hatred, and insecurity.

    I've always loved this sequence from 'The Child Within'. Harry's racing towards an unmasked Spidey aiming to kill him. Norman's ghost is cheering him on. At the last minute he realizes that he can't kill the man who was once his best friend. His hatred for Peter is still just as strong, maybe even stronger since he now knows he can't kill him.





    If you haven't read DeMatteis's run, you should definitely try to track it down. It is so good, and Harry comes off as more ruthless than his father ever did. In fact, Norman comes off as more ruthless than he ever had before. It's a damn near perfect run.
    It's perfect. JMD and Buscema are perfect. The Child Within is one of the greatest comic book storylines ever. Forget about Spider-Man. I like the Child Within ten times more than the Dark Knight Returns. It's that good. It's everything great about superhero comics.

    And as you've perfectly mentioned, Norman's an even better Spider-Man villain dead. The spectre of Norman Osborn is greater than Norman Osborn. It allowed his character to become something so much more. It allowd his son to become a far more compelling Green Goblin. Norman's Goblin sucked. Harry is beautifully twisted. At his true core, he knows that his father killed his dear friend Gwen Stacy. He knows this! But his inner child, still yearning for his father's love, makes the man act childish. He blames Peter for everything, and by extension Spider-Man. Harry is insane. Far more than his father ever was. After Peter comes out of his drug induced hallucination, Harry asks him if he's ok. If they need to talk. It's wild. Peter still wacked out, beats the hell out of him and takes off. But Harry is so conflicted. Right up to his tragic death. He planned on killing himself and Peter and then he saves Peter at the last second. Why? Because he loved Peter and hated his father.

    Other threads have been dedicated to discussing whether or not Norman should have been resurrected. I'm asking why was Harry resurrected. His story ended. It was told. Future writers can really only tell it again the same exact way or keep him Peter's best friend (boring!!!).

    Isn't Harry destined to become the Green Goblin again?

    Isn't that what everyone is waiting for?

    Problem is, for us guys we've already seen that story done perfectly. Harry should have remained dead.
    Kevin Nichols is jealous of my friendship with Oldschool.

  2. #47
    Senior Member oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanParkerMan View Post
    It's perfect. JMD and Buscema are perfect. The Child Within is one of the greatest comic book storylines ever. Forget about Spider-Man. I like the Child Within ten times more than the Dark Knight Returns. It's that good. It's everything great about superhero comics.

    And as you've perfectly mentioned, Norman's an even better Spider-Man villain dead. The spectre of Norman Osborn is greater than Norman Osborn. It allowed his character to become something so much more. It allowd his son to become a far more compelling Green Goblin. Norman's Goblin sucked. Harry is beautifully twisted. At his true core, he knows that his father killed his dear friend Gwen Stacy. He knows this! But his inner child, still yearning for his father's love, makes the man act childish. He blames Peter for everything, and by extension Spider-Man. Harry is insane. Far more than his father ever was. After Peter comes out of his drug induced hallucination, Harry asks him if he's ok. If they need to talk. It's wild. Peter still wacked out, beats the hell out of him and takes off. But Harry is so conflicted. Right up to his tragic death. He planned on killing himself and Peter and then he saves Peter at the last second. Why? Because he loved Peter and hated his father.

    Other threads have been dedicated to discussing whether or not Norman should have been resurrected. I'm asking why was Harry resurrected. His story ended. It was told. Future writers can really only tell it again the same exact way or keep him Peter's best friend (boring!!!).

    Isn't Harry destined to become the Green Goblin again?

    Isn't that what everyone is waiting for?

    Problem is, for us guys we've already seen that story done perfectly. Harry should have remained dead.
    Ryan, I totally agree that JMD's mega-arc with Harry in general and "The Child Within" in particular, are just genius. But I guess I am i the minority when it comes to Sal Buscema's art during this period---I know most disagree with me here but I always found (and still do) his renderings a bit too stiff and the coloring way too bright for this work (though the coloring is not his fault). Looking back, I always found someone like Mike Zeck to be a far better pairing for JMD's Spectacular run, maybe even someone like David Mazzuchelli who, IIRC, never worked on Spidey at all but would have been a great pairing for these arcs.

    Otherwise, I largely agree with your points and definitely agree that Norman had to die at the end of #122 only because back in 1973 the villain had to pay for his crimes and it seemed a fitting end for Norman with Harry waiting in the wings. Since then, Spidey story-telling--and all comics really----have changed so dramatically with the new understanding that there are an infinite amount of comics to be told with these characters that the old rules no longer apply. I still believe that Norman was a good choice to bring back as the surprise big bad behind "Revelations" but that he has been used poorly since his return, by and large. In other words, his resurrection wasn't worth it overall and Harry has been a complete and utter waste since his return save a few good moments in "American Son" and the final pages of "Origin of the Species".
    "What oldschool said"
    The Shadow, 2008

  3. #48
    My Turn. Kevin Nichols's Avatar
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    I totally disagree about Sal Buscema. I don't even feel the need to back it up since you are so clearly wrong. However, you mentioned David Mazzucchelli, and I would LOVE to see him do some Spidey. He's one of those once-in-a-lifetime talents who can do no wrong in my book.

    Regarding Harry's return, I agree with you completely. I was so excited when I saw him back at the beginning of BND, but it was a total letdown. There were tons of great possibilities with his return, and I was disappointed with that hiding in Europe reveal that they went with. The only really great thing involving Harry was "New Ways to Die." Although him beating up Vin was pretty cool too.
    "Women... they come and go, but the Jonah is eternal." - ViewtifulJC

  4. #49
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    JMD and Buscema just clicked on a level where I can't imagine anyone else bringing "The Child Within" into this world.

    As far as Norman goes, it ridiculous to think that a man whose master plan was 'throw hero who knows my secret id's girlfriend off bridge and see where things go from there' suddenly developed the self-restraint to manipulate events from behind the scenes for years. You might as well do a story where Rhino comes back from Europe with a PhD and steals the moon with a shrinking ray.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  5. #50
    Shadow of Evils Past Goblin-King's Avatar
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    If Norman didn't die, we would never have had Harry as the Green Goblin or the Hobgoblin. And I agree, Norman is sort of scarier dead; his legacy still hung over Spider-Man like a terrible ghost and after he was resurrected, we were given some of his best stories. Had he lived, it would've been the same cycle over and over: Norman becomes the goblin, loses his memory, remembers it again, and on and on and on.

  6. #51
    Like a boss E. Wilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    You might as well do a story where Rhino comes back from Europe with a PhD and steals the moon with a shrinking ray.
    Marvel, we got your next summer crossover event, right here.

  7. #52
    Senior Member RyanParkerMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Ryan, I totally agree that JMD's mega-arc with Harry in general and "The Child Within" in particular, are just genius. But I guess I am i the minority when it comes to Sal Buscema's art during this period---I know most disagree with me here but I always found (and still do) his renderings a bit too stiff and the coloring way too bright for this work (though the coloring is not his fault). Looking back, I always found someone like Mike Zeck to be a far better pairing for JMD's Spectacular run, maybe even someone like David Mazzuchelli who, IIRC, never worked on Spidey at all but would have been a great pairing for these arcs.

    Otherwise, I largely agree with your points and definitely agree that Norman had to die at the end of #122 only because back in 1973 the villain had to pay for his crimes and it seemed a fitting end for Norman with Harry waiting in the wings. Since then, Spidey story-telling--and all comics really----have changed so dramatically with the new understanding that there are an infinite amount of comics to be told with these characters that the old rules no longer apply. I still believe that Norman was a good choice to bring back as the surprise big bad behind "Revelations" but that he has been used poorly since his return, by and large. In other words, his resurrection wasn't worth it overall and Harry has been a complete and utter waste since his return save a few good moments in "American Son" and the final pages of "Origin of the Species".
    Thanks Rob. I know you're not a big Sal Buscema guy. And though I disagree with you on that point, I agree that Zeck is a better matchup with JMD. Zeck was dark at the right times and a little messy at the right times too.

    I think Norman's had some decent moments since returning from the dead. His return is pretty freaking cool by itself. There were some good stories in Peter Parker Spider-Man prereboot (PPSM96) and some honest to god great stories post reboot (the two Paul Jenkins' stories).

    I try to the throw the spidey office nothing but kind words and hold back to the negative but I really really really didn't like how Norman was utilized in ASM during Dark Reign. I didn't mind how Bendis used Norman. I didn't really like how Bendis used Peter.

    I just really didn't like BND. I don't like whiney Peter. I never really found him whiney. I know other's here disagree with me but I've read a ton of Spider-Man and Peter was never a whiney loser. When he was a loser, he was a man about it. I think I'm touching on a philosophy about the character that both sides (yeah I'm going there) seem to really have different views on. Our friends at crawlspace seemed to be real up in arms about the crazy town banana pants thing at the beginning of Superior. At the time I didn't really say anything because I was digging Superior so much that one little comment ghost Peter made wasn't going to make me hate the book. I think anyone who would get so upset might just be cherry picking for things they won't like because they don't want to like the book.

    But I agreed with them about that. You're dead. One of your worst enemies killed you and stole your life and he's trying to bang your ex-fiancé and your handling it.... like a whiney loser for super lack of a better phrase. You're handling it like a loser. I don't know. I think I'm digging into it too much. But the college and grad student Peter Parker was so...awesome. He wouldn't say things like that, at least not in the stories I read.

    And Harry's been a waste of paper since returning. I agree with you there too. Seeing Menace in Superior is probably the worst thing about one of the great new books of the past decade. I tell ya, that Steve Wacker might be running the show one day. Successful runs in Venom and Scarlet Spider and look at GotG. What a book. Rob, I've told you to pick that book up. I can't tell you enough. It's amazing. And it's kicking ass in sales.
    Kevin Nichols is jealous of my friendship with Oldschool.

  8. #53
    Senior Member oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanParkerMan View Post
    Thanks Rob. I know you're not a big Sal Buscema guy. And though I disagree with you on that point, I agree that Zeck is a better matchup with JMD. Zeck was dark at the right times and a little messy at the right times too.

    I think Norman's had some decent moments since returning from the dead. His return is pretty freaking cool by itself. There were some good stories in Peter Parker Spider-Man prereboot (PPSM96) and some honest to god great stories post reboot (the two Paul Jenkins' stories).

    I try to the throw the spidey office nothing but kind words and hold back to the negative but I really really really didn't like how Norman was utilized in ASM during Dark Reign. I didn't mind how Bendis used Norman. I didn't really like how Bendis used Peter.

    I just really didn't like BND. I don't like whiney Peter. I never really found him whiney. I know other's here disagree with me but I've read a ton of Spider-Man and Peter was never a whiney loser. When he was a loser, he was a man about it. I think I'm touching on a philosophy about the character that both sides (yeah I'm going there) seem to really have different views on. Our friends at crawlspace seemed to be real up in arms about the crazy town banana pants thing at the beginning of Superior. At the time I didn't really say anything because I was digging Superior so much that one little comment ghost Peter made wasn't going to make me hate the book. I think anyone who would get so upset might just be cherry picking for things they won't like because they don't want to like the book.

    But I agreed with them about that. You're dead. One of your worst enemies killed you and stole your life and he's trying to bang your ex-fiancé and your handling it.... like a whiney loser for super lack of a better phrase. You're handling it like a loser. I don't know. I think I'm digging into it too much. But the college and grad student Peter Parker was so...awesome. He wouldn't say things like that, at least not in the stories I read.

    And Harry's been a waste of paper since returning. I agree with you there too. Seeing Menace in Superior is probably the worst thing about one of the great new books of the past decade. I tell ya, that Steve Wacker might be running the show one day. Successful runs in Venom and Scarlet Spider and look at GotG. What a book. Rob, I've told you to pick that book up. I can't tell you enough. It's amazing. And it's kicking ass in sales.

    Always great talking with you, Ryan; you're a thoughtful poster and present your ideas clearly and civilly and never knock anyone ever. Can't ask for more than that.

    Yeah, I get how the "crazy town banana pants" thing seemed forced; frankly so did the "macking" comment on the very first page of the first BND issue (also Slott). So......maybe Slott reaches a little bit at times? Maybe he can be guilty of overcompensating at times to distance himself from the overly brooding, overly world-weary Peter of the 2000's? Perhaps so.....it's a delicate balance to find the voice of a hero who is an everyman, just around mid-twenties but someone who has seen a lot and felt a lot of loss. Someone who has fought back dark urges and remains grounded by a woman who raised him on wheatcakes and a strong moral compass. Someone who has Charlie Brown moments for sure but isn't Charlie Brown. It can be tricky, really tricky and Slott may stumble there at times. Frankly, this is why I continually rank Roger Stern so damn high on my list of best Spidey writers of all time: he got that voice perfect. Freaking perfect.

    All in all, I do think Slott has done a fantastic job but I can definitely understand that he has been a little off at times on Peter's "voice"......so I do think it's odd that he seems to have more fun writing SpOck than Peter and I found his "Peter Ghost" voice a tad goofy at times. Like you said, not the end of the world and I am aware of who the usual suspects are when it comes to finding one or two minor offenses and then hanging all of Marvel for them and you sure ain't one of them.

    You definitely told me about GoTG and I will check it out; Kevin told me about Matt Kindt's "Mind MGMT" and that has hooked me and hogged up some of my comic time and budget lately (an outstanding series if you are a fan of "Lost").

    Thanks again, Ryan; we have to try to reschedule that NYC hang with some others soon!
    "What oldschool said"
    The Shadow, 2008

  9. #54
    My Turn. Kevin Nichols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanParkerMan View Post
    Thanks Rob. I know you're not a big guy, but I still love you.
    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Always great talking with you, Ryan; you're a beautiful man. Can't ask for more than that.
    God! Would you two get a room already?


    Just don't tell Coco where that room is. For Ryan's sake.


    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    You definitely told me about GoTG and I will check it out; Kevin told me about Matt Kindt's "Mind MGMT" and that has hooked me and hogged up some of my comic time and budget lately (an outstanding series if you are a fan of "Lost").
    Right? That series is amazing! I'm glad you're enjoying it.
    "Women... they come and go, but the Jonah is eternal." - ViewtifulJC

  10. #55
    Senior Member oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols View Post
    God! Would you two get a room already?


    Just don't tell Coco where that room is. For Ryan's sake.




    Right? That series is amazing! I'm glad you're enjoying it.
    Listen, just because you and Schmitty bump uglies (emphasis on the "uglies") doesn't mean we all swing that way.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that.

    And, yeah, Mind Mgmt is off-the-hook outrageous. Looking forward to Kindt's take on Spidey in that new MK mini.
    "What oldschool said"
    The Shadow, 2008

  11. #56
    My Turn. Kevin Nichols's Avatar
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    And what's this GotG you and Ryan are on about?
    "Women... they come and go, but the Jonah is eternal." - ViewtifulJC

  12. #57
    Senior Member oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols View Post
    And what's this GotG you and Ryan are on about?
    Guardians of the Galaxy. I'm not a huge fan of cosmic stories but the buzz on the book is that it's just superb; what is the word at Zapp on it?
    "What oldschool said"
    The Shadow, 2008

  13. #58
    My Turn. Kevin Nichols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Guardians of the Galaxy. I'm not a huge fan of cosmic stories but the buzz on the book is that it's just superb; what is the word at Zapp on it?
    The guy who runs the store is a HUGE fan of Guardians of the Galaxy, Silver Surfer, and pretty much all the cosmic stuff, so he raves about it. I'm with you; not into the cosmic stuff so much.

    By the way, Schmitty made an awesome picture. Easily the best thing he's ever done. I'll PM it to you on Facebook.
    "Women... they come and go, but the Jonah is eternal." - ViewtifulJC

  14. #59
    Senior Member oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols View Post
    The guy who runs the store is a HUGE fan of Guardians of the Galaxy, Silver Surfer, and pretty much all the cosmic stuff, so he raves about it. I'm with you; not into the cosmic stuff so much.

    By the way, Schmitty made an awesome picture. Easily the best thing he's ever done. I'll PM it to you on Facebook.
    I hate to give Schmitty any credit but that was pretty damn funny. Gotta figure he's all done with anything funny (or productive) for the rest of the decade now.
    "What oldschool said"
    The Shadow, 2008

  15. #60
    Just Sayin'
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    I think it was a bigger mistake bringing him back.
    Support titles that need supporting. Quit buying, reading and complaining about comics you don't enjoy.

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