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  1. #91
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I like Lois. I don't put on any pretense of being unbiased when it comes to her or her relationship with Superman, but liking something does't automatically render one incapable of making sound, evidence based arguments. It's also nearly impossible to find someone with no bias whatsoever. Perhaps my screename makes my allegiances more readily apparent. Yet, I doubt that you Yeezus don't lack certain preferences that affect your judgments. Certainly, your patronizing and insulting manner of responding to me in disagreement suggests that you're just as opinionated but simply hold a different perspective.
    But your liking of Lois might make you feel that all other Superman love interests are inferior to her, and complain about them. Just a possibility.

    It is my opinion that a character is more admirable when they choose to face their fears and care for people based on what's in their hearts. I believe that the principle behind classic and beloved tales of love and companionship like Aragorn and Arwen, Romeo and Juliet, Lizzy and Darcy, The Doctor (Doctor Who) and such human companions as Rose Tyler, serve an important narrative purpose.
    What did The Doctor and Rose add again? It seemed a rather cliched subplot that added far too much drama to the finale (companions leaving shouldn't be that big of a deal, nor should the Doctor regenerating).

    And for someone who likes couples who face their fears, I've never seen you comment on anything but Superman and Wonder Woman threads. How about Nightwing, Daredevil and GL threads? Those seem more appropriate, as those characters are all about facing their fears. Clark Kent is usually a coward, much more so than most superheroes.

    This type of reaction to an unlettered preview doesn't seem positive to the board. There's barely anything to go by on here.
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  2. #92
    Veteran Member Punisher284's Avatar
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    Currently, The Doctor is married to River Song and flirting with that Clara girl, so sorry Rose. Superman/Lois is inevitable, but that doesn't mean that it can't wait a few years.

  3. #93
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mastermind View Post
    But your liking of Lois might make you feel that all other Superman love interests are inferior to her, and complain about them. Just a possibility.
    Sure, but people not liking Lois or being ambivalent about her might make them feel she is inferior or not worth defending. Everyone has bias.

    What did The Doctor and Rose add again? It seemed a rather cliched subplot that added far too much drama to the finale (companions leaving shouldn't be that big of a deal, nor should the Doctor regenerating).
    You noticed in my post that I mentioned other companions as well, right? And the point with companions isn't their endings, but their journeys. The balance and perspective that the human companion has in terms of the function they play in the narrative is a crucial and beloved aspect of the show.

    And for someone who likes couples who face their fears, I've never seen you comment on anything but Superman and Wonder Woman threads. How about Nightwing, Daredevil and GL threads? Those seem more appropriate, as those characters are all about facing their fears. Clark Kent is usually a coward, much more so than most superheroes.
    Why would I comment on characters I don't read about, know little about, and care nothing for? It's absurd. Superman/Clark is not typically a coward. It's strange that you would comment and read threads about a character, Clark Kent, you seem to think very little of. People will talk about what interests them and what they care about. I care about Superman/Clark and want to see him not afraid to take emotional risks and to be honest with himself.

    This type of reaction to an unlettered preview doesn't seem positive to the board. There's barely anything to go by on here.
    My post wasn't in reaction to the preview, but Yeezus' reaction to the preview which included mocking and questioning of Clois fans' opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher284 View Post
    Currently, The Doctor is married to River Song and flirting with that Clara girl, so sorry Rose. Superman/Lois is inevitable, but that doesn't mean that it can't wait a few years.
    The Doctor is a great example of how a person can have many true loves throughout a lifetime. He was married with children on Gallifrey before all the companions, too, but what's so amazing about him is that despite the pain and losses he's sustained, he still loves and still connects. It's not always immediate or easy for him, but he does. River Song, for example, is someone who is now human/mortal (born of human parents and exhausted her regenerations as child of the Tardis) and someone the Doctor has known will die from the outset. Their marriage isn't exactly a typical one either.
    "I love that she’s human. You need that juxtaposed to the perfection of Superman. [Lois] has this absolute loyalty for what is good and just, and it parallels what Superman is." – Erica Durance

  4. #94
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher284 View Post
    Currently, The Doctor is married to River Song and flirting with that Clara girl, so sorry Rose. Superman/Lois is inevitable, but that doesn't mean that it can't wait a few years.
    Just didn't needed to drag WW on this

  5. #95
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    All that's inevitable is a strong bond and dynamic between Lois and Superman/Clark. being that she is when all is said and done the main supporting character in the Superman mythos. That won't change, and so that stronger role will most definitely come back around sooner than later. In my opinion that's already started, just derailed a bit due to FE, like everything else. But I still don't buy that a romance, the likes that we were privy to in the 90s up till the reboot, is at all inevitable. I see them approaching things from a much more casual, less exclusive, if you will, state, even when both characters are unfettered. Even giving a buffer of a few years I don't see as a safe bet in the slightest. In fact I could easily see a few years down the road the two going on a date or something, a section of the fanbase going wild, then flipping out all over again when it doesn't become anything steady.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-25-2013 at 10:01 PM.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    DC is really trying to avoid Lois and Clark, even Smallville gave up one day. It will depend more if Didio and Lee keep their jobs.

  7. #97
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Well those are the things that I mean when I talk about things quantifiable. We can't really anticipate things like major changes in leadership in the upper echelon of the company of such, so my feelings are only based off this hierarchy.

  8. #98
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    All that's inevitable is a strong bond and dynamic between Lois and Superman/Clark. being that she is when all is said and done the main supporting character in the Superman mythos. That won't change, and so that stronger role will most definitely come back around sooner than later. In my opinion that's already started, just derailed a bit due to FE, like everything else. But I still don't buy that a romance, the likes that we were privy to in the 90s up till the reboot, is at all inevitable. I see them approaching things from a much more casual, less exclusive, if you will, state, even when both characters are unfettered. Even giving a buffer of a few years I don't see as a safe bet in the slightest. In fact I could easily see a few years down the road the two going on a date or something, a section of the fanbase going wild, then flipping out all over again when it doesn't become anything steady.
    I think the fact that DC put Superman and Wonder Woman together so soon, especially before Lois and Clark were given a real shot, is the biggest sign to me that Clark/Diana will part ways and Clark/Lois will be explored in more depth at some point. I strongly suspect it's inevitable they get together and stay together because of story and myth structures. The teasing of Clark and Lois unexplored feelings for each other is like a Chekov's gun. The representations of their inevitability in other universes or timelines (Earth 2, Jon Lane Kent, etc.) also provide a subtextual sense that they should be husband and wife. Furthermore, myths typically operate by having the hero go through identity forming struggles that ultimately result in the resolution of the core conflicts of their story and character. For Superman, healing from the death of his human parents and finding balance and integration of his alien/human sides is elegantly and poetically achieved through his union with Lois.
    "I love that she’s human. You need that juxtaposed to the perfection of Superman. [Lois] has this absolute loyalty for what is good and just, and it parallels what Superman is." – Erica Durance

  9. #99
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I think the fact that DC put Superman and Wonder Woman together so soon, especially before Lois and Clark were given a real shot, is the biggest sign to me that Clark/Diana will part ways and Clark/Lois will be explored in more depth at some point.
    For me there are two things about that... the first is that Superman & Lois has already had their shot for... quite a few years.



    But the second is... the reboot itself. DC gave out new costume styles, backgrounds and even some personality changes for it's characters. It's trying to be fresh and different and all that jazz. I mean... no better time to try something new then... right now. Everything is new, heck, it's in the name.



    This way... you can avoid the inevitable drama of Wonder Woman being accused of merely being a "rebound girl".


    Lol, it's not even happening and I can already see some fans saying it.
    Last edited by Holy Spirit; 09-26-2013 at 12:24 AM.

  10. #100
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    For me there are two things about that... the first is that Superman & Lois has already had their shot for... quite a few years.
    Superman and Lois absolutely did NOT have a real shot yet. Yes they were together in previous eras, but not in this one. When I say a real shot, I mean feelings are expressed and explored within a dating relationship. That has not happened at all, and I think it's inevitable that it will happen someday.

    But the second is... the reboot itself. DC gave out new costume styles, backgrounds and even some personality changes for it's characters. It's trying to be fresh and different and all that jazz. I mean... no better time to try something new then... right now. Everything is new, heck, it's in the name.
    Superman and Wonder Woman dating, or Superman dating someone else before Lois, is not entirely new. In the Post-Crisis, Superman and Wonder Woman flirted with the idea of a relationship in Action Comics #600. What's happening now is a more thorough extension of that. Clark's also dated Lana in the past. For instance, on Smallville Lana was Clark's primary love interest for 7 years before he fell in love and got engaged to Lois. So, I agree with you in a sense. The New 52 offered an opportunity to do something new, and it is. The journey to Lois/Clark is different now than it's been before, and innovation can still happen with the telling of their love story. Lois finding out Clark's secret on her own, for example.

    This way... you can avoid the inevitable drama of Wonder Woman being accused of merely being a "rebound girl".

    Lol, it's not even happening and I can already see some fans saying it.
    Even though Lois and Clark hadn't dated, Lobdell's issues paint Clark as someone who's still hung up on Lois. Likewise, Justice League #12 showed Superman swooping in when Wonder Woman was clearly still very emotionally invested in Steve Trevor.
    "I love that she’s human. You need that juxtaposed to the perfection of Superman. [Lois] has this absolute loyalty for what is good and just, and it parallels what Superman is." – Erica Durance

  11. #101
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I think the fact that DC put Superman and Wonder Woman together so soon, especially before Lois and Clark were given a real shot, is the biggest sign to me that Clark/Diana will part ways and Clark/Lois will be explored in more depth at some point. I strongly suspect it's inevitable they get together and stay together because of story and myth structures. The teasing of Clark and Lois unexplored feelings for each other is like a Chekov's gun. The representations of their inevitability in other universes or timelines (Earth 2, Jon Lane Kent, etc.) also provide a subtextual sense that they should be husband and wife. Furthermore, myths typically operate by having the hero go through identity forming struggles that ultimately result in the resolution of the core conflicts of their story and character. For Superman, healing from the death of his human parents and finding balance and integration of his alien/human sides is elegantly and poetically achieved through his union with Lois.
    Its possible, I'm certainly not directly plugged into the heads of the hierarchy. I just don't think its a direction they want to go in any time soon. And again I stress all I'm talking about is a steady romantic relationship. I'm not counting dates, flirting, and all that stuff. Just the One True Pair exclusive type of approach. It really has little to do with Wonder Woman, either. If they shelved the concept tomorrow, I'd still be of the opinion that they'd approach the Lois and Clark dynamic differently, and more casually, than they did post-Crisis.

    Doing this with Wonder Woman now I just think was kinda a timing thing. It'd been teased for decades, its a rebooted universe, why not tell a story with it now after all this time. I don't think it had to do with getting it out of the way or anything, rather just trying something when they thought the timing fit.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-26-2013 at 11:30 AM.

  12. #102
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Its possible, I'm certainly not directly plugged into the heads of the hierarchy. I just don't think its a direction they want to go in any time soon. And again I stress all I'm talking about is a steady romantic relationship. I'm not counting dates, flirting, and all that stuff. Just the One True Pair exclusive type of approach. It really has little to do with Wonder Woman, either. If they shelved the concept tomorrow, I'd still be of the opinion that they'd approach the Lois and Clark dynamic differently, and more casually, than they did post-Crisis.
    But I'm not talking about "any time soon" either. I've used phrases like "at some point" and "inevitable" neither of which imply something imminent. Clark/Lois didn't start dating until about 5 years into the Post-Crisis universe and 7 years on Smallville. In terms of how casual the relationship is approached, I agree they might not push it in the marriage direction. However, I believe that's more because of DC's aversion to marriage and not because of the couple in question. Still, I haven't gotten the impression that DC is against committed, long-term relationships yet. So the possibility that Lois and Clark could date seriously in the future seems like a pretty sure bet.

    Doing this with Wonder Woman now I just think was kinda a timing thing. It'd been teased for decades, its a rebooted universe, why not tell a story with it now after all this time. I don't think it had to do with getting it out of the way or anything, rather just trying something when they thought the timing fit.
    Why can't it be both? In an effort to give a break to Clark/Lois after decades of marriage and live action portrayals as well as to show their commitment to experimentation, DC explores Superman and Wonder Woman to a greater extent than before. Instead of Lana, Lori, or Cat Grant, we have Diana as Clark's love interest before Lois. Regardless of what the reason was for the timing, it still left Clark/Lois unexplored. Idelson and even Soule have spoken in the past about the value of this approach. For Idelson, it was essentially starving people of Clark/Lois until they were ready and craving more again. For Soule, it's a chance to use a relationship as a way to explore the characters and possibly make them grow as people while also possibly growing out of each other.
    "I love that she’s human. You need that juxtaposed to the perfection of Superman. [Lois] has this absolute loyalty for what is good and just, and it parallels what Superman is." – Erica Durance

  13. #103
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Sure, but people not liking Lois or being ambivalent about her might make them feel she is inferior or not worth defending. Everyone has bias.
    Some biases are stronger than others.

    You noticed in my post that I mentioned other companions as well, right? And the point with companions isn't their endings, but their journeys. The balance and perspective that the human companion has in terms of the function they play in the narrative is a crucial and beloved aspect of the show.
    Yeah, I was just saying that Rose was a bad example.

    Why would I comment on characters I don't read about, know little about, and care nothing for? It's absurd.
    Wait, you don't liek Dick Grayson? HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!?! Or Daredevil? That dude is just awesome. And god, don't get me started on Hal, I'll make this thread even worse...

    Superman/Clark is not typically a coward. It's strange that you would comment and read threads about a character, Clark Kent, you seem to think very little of. People will talk about what interests them and what they care about. I care about Superman/Clark and want to see him not afraid to take emotional risks and to be honest with himself.
    Wait a minute, people here have to read Superman comics to judge his character? I just look at the covers and try and piss off Superman Priime. Jeez, what did I do wrong...?

    And yes, Clark Kent has often been portrayed as a coward, much more so than any other superhero. He's a vessel for Superman to voice his humanity, and is an average, unassuming character. That's the contrast between Superman and Clark. Superman is super, Clark Kent is average. It's what makes the character so compelling when written well.

    My post wasn't in reaction to the preview, but Yeezus' reaction to the preview which included mocking and questioning of Clois fans' opinions.
    I was talking more generally about this thread. Unlettered preview pages are just to show off art and maybe tease story (this one wasn't, though), not induce rage between shippers.

    The Doctor is a great example of how a person can have many true loves throughout a lifetime. He was married with children on Gallifrey before all the companions, too, but what's so amazing about him is that despite the pain and losses he's sustained, he still loves and still connects. It's not always immediate or easy for him, but he does. River Song, for example, is someone who is now human/mortal (born of human parents and exhausted her regenerations as child of the Tardis) and someone the Doctor has known will die from the outset. Their marriage isn't exactly a typical one either.
    Well, at least we both like the Doctor.

    Like all aspects of his life, The Doctor's love life should be unique. Having him fall in love with someone like Rose is just boring. This is why River Song is so much better. His love shouldn't always be physical, or even conform to human standards. RTD just made him go though a book of romantic cliches (I do like some of his work on the series, hell, some of it is amazing, but some parts are just awful).
    Last edited by Mr. Mastermind; 09-26-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I think the fact that DC put Superman and Wonder Woman together so soon, especially before Lois and Clark were given a real shot, is the biggest sign to me that Clark/Diana will part ways and Clark/Lois will be explored in more depth at some point. I strongly suspect it's inevitable they get together and stay together because of story and myth structures. The teasing of Clark and Lois unexplored feelings for each other is like a Chekov's gun. The representations of their inevitability in other universes or timelines (Earth 2, Jon Lane Kent, etc.) also provide a subtextual sense that they should be husband and wife. Furthermore, myths typically operate by having the hero go through identity forming struggles that ultimately result in the resolution of the core conflicts of their story and character. For Superman, healing from the death of his human parents and finding balance and integration of his alien/human sides is elegantly and poetically achieved through his union with Lois.
    Superman also has to face a lot more lessons than that. He and Lois are usually stuck in time. She represents a part of his growth. Not all. It's ironic he seems to have a hell of a lot to learn still last canon even while married to her. He was written as very needy, whiny and immature at times. And it's clear Clark Kent is the tether to his humanity. Not Lois. To say he needs Lois to do that undermines him imo. Because when Lois ages and dies, then you're making him a sad pathetic creature who can't find balance. No wonder we are unfortunately faced with the troupes of him losing it and going nuts abounds. It does make him a rather weak, watered down hero who can't function because of one person The character always was heroic and concerned for humanity before the conceit of Lois and Clark phenomena. I have no problem with him loving her etc but having to be defined by her...no. I reject that.

    I doubt if Steve dies Diana would go nuts or can't cherish life and humans etc.
    Last edited by thepenguin; 09-26-2013 at 03:04 PM.

  15. #105
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mastermind View Post
    Some biases are stronger than others.
    Sure, but then everyone can have strong biases in this discussion.

    Yeah, I was just saying that Rose was a bad example.
    Just because you didn't like Rose/Ten doesn't mean she's a bad example of a human's relationship with an alien. The Rose/Ten relationship may not be your cup of tea, but plenty of other people enjoyed it. I've liked all of The Doctor's recent companions for different reasons. What I like most about them is how they draw out interesting facets of the Doctor's character and provide a human/mortal perspective on his adventures, decisions, and experiences.

    Wait, you don't liek Dick Grayson? HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!?! Or Daredevil? That dude is just awesome. And god, don't get me started on Hal, I'll make this thread even worse...
    I didn't say I didn't like him. I said I don't read about him or know about him. As a result, I'm not informed enough about him to say whether I like him or not. I don't care to find out because I'm not looking for new characters to care about right now.

    Wait a minute, people here have to read Superman comics to judge his character? I just look at the covers and try and piss off Superman Priime. Jeez, what did I do wrong...?
    If that's your approach, then fair enough. I can't say I agree with approach motivated by the desire to purposefully annoy people, though.

    And yes, Clark Kent has often been portrayed as a coward, much more so than any other superhero. He's a vessel for Superman to voice his humanity, and is an average, unassuming character. That's the contrast between Superman and Clark. Superman is super, Clark Kent is average. It's what makes the character so compelling when written well.
    Oh, so you were just talking about Superman's alter ego? Because, yes, in order to perpetuate the mild-mannered facade he'll act cowardly. However, we all know that he's more than that. That said, you're confusing your point by comparing "Clark Kent" the "vessel" to "other superhero[es]" and describing Clark Kent as a side of that superhero (Superman). Since they're one in the same, then it stands to reason that Clark/Superman isn't a coward. My original point, though, was that Clark's cowardice with regard to relationships is tangled up in his role as Superman. The loss of his parents has made him wary of forming connections with vulnerable humans, so his not being with Lois now is a consequence of his giving into the darkness of his past and fear of the future. A true hero's journey would show Clark/Superman overcome both.

    I was talking more generally about this thread. Unlettered preview pages are just to show off art and maybe tease story (this one wasn't, though), not induce rage between shippers.
    I see. Normally I suppose that would be the case, but Yeezus seemed very interested in stirring things up.

    Well, at least we both like the Doctor.
    Very much so. I'm very excited to see the 50th Anniversary special in a few months.

    Like all aspects of his life, The Doctor's love life should be unique. Having him fall in love with someone like Rose is just boring.
    A 900 year old alien Timelord, last of his kind, falling in love with a 19 year old shop girl from London isn't exactly typical. Plus, love is love. There are only so many ways to make a person's love life unique.

    This is why River Song is so much better. His love shouldn't always be physical, or even conform to human standards. RTD just made him go though a book of romantic cliches (I do like some of his work on the series, hell, some of it is amazing, but some parts are just awful).
    This is not the time or place for a drawn out discussion about relationships on Doctor Who. Suffice it to say, there are plenty of ship wars and shipping debates about the Doctor's love interests that discussing preferences for one over the other isn't constructive. I like River. I like Rose, Martha, Donna, Amy, and Clara too. What I like most about them is that they're funny, often challenge the Doctor, and serve as a grounding force for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    Superman also has to face a lot more lessons than that. He and Lois are usually stuck in time. She represents a part of his growth. Not all.
    It's not my intention to suggest Lois represents ALL of Superman's growth or that growth is something that has a definite end point. Rather, it seems clear from decades worth of Superman stories in various media that the central themes are very interconnected around the conflicts between alien/human, powerful/powerless, perfect/flawed, immortal/mortal, and hero/civilian. The journey to Lois, the ultimate union with Lois, and the balance they have to strike once they're together, is an elegant and effective way of exploring those themes in microcosm.

    And it's clear Clark Kent is the tether to his humanity. Not Lois. To say he needs Lois to do that undermines him imo. Because when Lois ages and dies, then you're making him a sad pathetic creature who can't find balance.
    I never used the phrase "tether to humanity" or suggested that Superman needs Lois to be human. You say that Clark Kent is Superman's tether to humanity. Well, it's because Clark Kent is a representation of Clark's human upbringing and because he chose journalism as a way to continue his mission of truth and justice that he came into contact with Lois, finds her so attractive, and ultimately finds in her a great love and great partner. If Lois were to die, as she has in the past, it's the strength, maturity, and wisdom Superman has gotten from that relationship, and the courage he had to make it happen, that sticks with him even when she's gone. Of course it's hard at first, though, just like it's hard for Clark right now as he remains scarred by his parents' death. I'm sure no one would blame any person for struggling to find their equilibrium after suffering the loss of a loved one. However, I want to be clear that generally when I speak of balance I'm referring to the symbolic meaning of Superman and Lois Lane's relationship. Myths and stories are supposed to illuminate the human condition and teach us about ourselves. I think the Superman/Lois relationship serves this function best.

    I doubt if Steve dies Diana would go nuts or can't cherish life and humans etc.
    Diana went pretty berserk when Graves threatened Steve, if I recall correctly; her treatment of Hal was particularly striking. I'm inclined to be lenient toward all of these characters in these extreme situations. Whether you're human, Amazon, Kryptonian, or whatever, having someone you care about in danger or dead is devastating.
    "I love that she’s human. You need that juxtaposed to the perfection of Superman. [Lois] has this absolute loyalty for what is good and just, and it parallels what Superman is." – Erica Durance

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