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  1. #76
    Senior Member Crawford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    I thought that they had another fight in Civil War proper, where Cap came at him, Spidey was like "oh noes!" dodged a bit, then thought "wait, I'm a million times faster than this guy, he's going down now..."
    Well that's they way it should have gone down, but you're probably thinking of when SM used his stealth mode to deck Cap with his own shield..

    For that scene, I dunno. I have this idea that the damage was done before the last little chat, but that might just be my preconception of the feat.
    Fairly certain the collateral damage was all new, again Sharp or someone else can clarify.

  2. #77
    Elder Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
    1. So you agree comics don't portray the speed margin as being that wide
    2. I personally see Cap as Bullet time - but know he isn't by board standards



    The way Cap is portrayed - his durability does fall into Ringer, possibly low tier meta-territory, someone will need to pony feats for discussion though (I lost my hard drive and have slowly started rebuilding my Cap feats list). I agree pressure points should bypass durability I just don't see either him or them putting themselves in a position to be pressure pointed.
    So basically Captain America is a bullet timing meta durable multi ton lifting brick?

    And I totally agree comics are indeed full of PIS. The thing we don't count on this board. Are you arguing we should start?

  3. #78
    Senior Member Crawford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    So basically Captain America is a bullet timing meta durable multi ton lifting brick?
    Trollolololololo

  4. #79
    Elder Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
    Trollolololololo
    These are your statements.

    2. I personally see Cap as Bullet time - but know he isn't by board standards
    The way Cap is portrayed - his durability does fall into Ringer, possibly low tier meta-territory
    Though since we are here, I'll re-ask. If the distinction between peak humans and bullet time is so functionally exaggerated here, why do you try so hard to argue Captain America is in bullet timing range?

    To clarify, Captain America though, he's no longer peak human as far as durability? He's blown well past that now? What particularly then is "ringer" durability. Indeed, by "low end meta", who does that mean? Can you point to the explicit power up he received beyond the super soldier serum to justify claiming this state for him?

    edit: Because the only character who has really fallen into either sort of claim has been the Classic Kingpin, at which point if you're arguing Cap is on his level, well, that's certainly interesting.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 09-13-2013 at 02:33 AM.

  5. #80
    Elder Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Actually, having missed this:

    Well that's they way it should have gone down, but you're probably thinking of when SM used his stealth mode to deck Cap with his own shield..
    Why do you feel it should have gone down that way when you find off the way the difference between peak human and bullet timing is treated here? Should Spider man really be able to blitz Captain America? Especially if we've never seen him do it, which is part of the crux of your argument?
    Last edited by Pendaran; 09-13-2013 at 02:24 AM.

  6. #81

  7. #82
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    http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.in/p/...-arts.html?m=1

    And heres a few more.
    including stalemating Cassandra Cain. And being officially called The 2nd most skilled martial artist in DC after Batman

  8. #83
    Elder Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightwing444 View Post
    http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.in/p/...-arts.html?m=1

    And heres a few more.
    including stalemating Cassandra Cain. And being officially called The 2nd most skilled martial artist in DC after Batman
    Which would be what one calls "so chock full of PIS as to not be worth noting" and I'm almost pretty sure I remember you and a Nightwing thread and all of this sort of thing being gone through before.

    A bumper crop of those feats from that blog skew wildly out of Nightwing's capacity besides. Particularly "here's Nightwing totally beating the crap out of a guy we've just established has superhuman speed, strength and durability, and beating him up while Robin no less". Granted by certain standards, they should all instead count just fine. Well, no, not even the ones with the Flash and Jesse Quick should.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 09-13-2013 at 02:44 AM.

  9. #84
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    http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.in/p/...speed.html?m=1

    and here are a few speed feats to top it off . including lassoing the Flash moving at superspeed.and dodging kicks from speedsters . Actually beating Captain Boomerang,another speedster.

    also really high end aim dodging

  10. #85
    Elder Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightwing444 View Post
    http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.in/p/...speed.html?m=1

    and here are a few speed feats to top it off . including lassoing the Flash moving at superspeed.and dodging kicks from speedsters .
    Is Nightwing FTL?

  11. #86
    Senior Member Crawford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    These are your statements.





    Though since we are here, I'll re-ask. If the distinction between peak humans and bullet time is so functionally exaggerated here, why do you try so hard to argue Captain America is in bullet timing range?

    To clarify, Captain America though, he's no longer peak human as far as durability? He's blown well past that now? What particularly then is "ringer" durability. Indeed, by "low end meta", who does that mean? Can you point to the explicit power up he received beyond the super soldier serum to justify claiming this state for him?

    edit: Because the only character who has really fallen into either sort of claim has been the Classic Kingpin, at which point if you're arguing Cap is on his level, well, that's certainly interesting.
    I should clarify I personally see Cap as a bullet timer. But he isn't considered such according to the board. This view I have always had and always will.

    I never said Cap had a specific power up, there's probably been power creep over the years but he's always been ridiculously durable and is always training.

    Why do you feel it should have gone down that way when you find off the way the difference between peak human and bullet timing is treated here? Should Spider man really be able to blitz Captain America? Especially if we've never seen him do it, which is part of the crux of your argument?
    Yeah rushed that post - I meant according to Rumbles the Civil War SM/Cap fight should have gone down the way Big Adventure described.

    I also never said that was Cap is a
    bullet timing meta durability multi ton lifting brick
    Last edited by Crawford; 09-13-2013 at 02:51 AM.

  12. #87
    Elder Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I never said Cap had a specific power up, there's probably been power creep over the years but he's always been ridiculously durable and is always training.
    Once again; if Captain America is not in fact a peak human, and instead a "ringer" or "meta durable", where then does he benchmark at? Classic Kingpin durable? Spiderman durable?

    I never said Cap had a specific power up, there's probably been power creep over the years but he's always been ridiculously durable and is always training.
    Along with, over the years, any number of showings in line just fine with Captain America, comic book peak human. Your argument now is all those are the low showings, without even anything like an explicit power up to justify making that claim.

    Yeah rushed that post - I meant according to Rumbles the Civil War SM/Cap fight should have gone down the way Big Adventure described.
    Why should it have gone down that way? According to you, the difference between peak humans and bullet timers is exaggerated here beyond what it should be, because we don't see them blitzing such. We don't see Spiderman blitzing Captain America going by your posts. Why then should Spiderman be able to blitz out Captain America?

    And again, if the distinction between bullet time and peak human is overblown, why have you argued so strenuously for Captain America to be considered one?

    This by the way is setting aside that your entire basis for such revolves around "well we don't see them blitzing them", ignoring things like "the one group have many a separate performance of valid speed feats well above the other group". How does that make not blitzing them anything besides PIS?

    What I never said though was Cap is a



    bullet timing multi ton lifting brick
    You say Captain America is a bullet timer. You say Captain America is metahuman durable. In what sense are you not actually saying that? His strength?
    Last edited by Pendaran; 09-13-2013 at 02:57 AM.

  13. #88
    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Okay, thread closed pending review.

  14. #89
    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Okay, here we go.

    1. We have rulings on Cap. They're staying. Gordon Smith has ruled on Captain America being presented and feated, generally speaking, by Marvel as a Comic Book Peak Human, and that stuff that flies outside that area would be outliers. This includes stuff like bullet-timing, which Cap only has a few feats for over fifty years of him dealing with guys with guns, and durability, Cap not being presented or shown as a bullet-proof guy (so he's not standing at ground zero of a grenade explosion, no way).

    2. We have a ruling on bullet-timers versus peak humans. People who treat bullets like punches (or worse, like jokes) shouldn't really have a problem blitzing people who can't. Gordon Smith has ruled that a bullet-timer has a sizeable advantage in speed over a comic book peak human.

    Crawford, it's getting to the point where almost every time you post in a Captain America thread, it somewhere includes how you don't like or agree with the board's stance on the character. You're free to have your own opinion on the matter, and if you want to preface it that way, making absolutely sure you're not actually arguing that point, fair enough. It's in your right. But it's not helping, any more than me complaining in every thread about Shiva about how I don't agree with the board's stance on HER speed would help.

    Next -

    Quote Originally Posted by nightwing444 View Post
    http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.in/p/...-arts.html?m=1

    And heres a few more.
    including stalemating Cassandra Cain. And being officially called The 2nd most skilled martial artist in DC after Batman
    Nightwing444, this was written by someone who also wrote Cassandra Cain being stalemated by Green Arrow, during a time where DC couldn't decide anything about Cassandra Cain and the main stuff written about her was being written by someone who didn't actually read her first series. It ignores her actual capabilities.

    Additionally, seeing as Batman isn't actually the Most Skilled Martial Artist in DC - there's a fairly long list ahead of him - the handbook's comment is a little pointless.

    Additionally (and because of this kind of thing) we don't take handbook stuff as evidence here.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightwing444 View Post
    http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.in/p/...speed.html?m=1

    and here are a few speed feats to top it off . including lassoing the Flash moving at superspeed.and dodging kicks from speedsters . Actually beating Captain Boomerang,another speedster.
    Dodging Jesse Quick and lassoing the Flash is SMvsFL of a pretty high order, unless Nightwing has not only gone meta in speed but is well-past the hypersonic. Which he isn't.

    It's becoming increasingly obvious that you're incapable of following Rumbles Rules with regards to your favourite characters, and consider any and all feats they show valid without view to either context or character presentation, while in some cases bringing up and arguing for low-end feats of their opponents.

    If you don't start learning and following the rules around here - properly - you'll be banned from the board.

    Finally -

    People, stop using 'Ringer' to indicate some nebulous place between Peak Human and meta. There is no such territory. If you're past peak human, you're into the metahuman area. A Ringer is just someone who doesn't have a meta-gene/superpower/whatever, who is a 'normal human', who still manages to blow past Peak Human, and it's just a word we've coopted as a short-form to indicate this.

  15. #90
    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Additionally we've been over the durability stuff. Cap eating a She-Hulk powered truck in the face, being at ground zero for a grenade going off and coming through it okay, and keeping on fighting after being powered through walls by Class 80 Iron Man is SMvsFL to a ridiculous extent. To endure this sort of thing, Cap would have to be tough enough to eat Class 80+ stuff (ie, several times tougher than Spiderman) and bullet-proof to boot (we know he's not).

    There are a lot of Captain America durability feats out there. I put stuff like the ones above into the same catagory as 'Cassandra Cain smacks Superboy through his force field'. Ie, waaaay outside the character's presentation.

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