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  1. #46
    Crusader of Justice dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    Not in the league of Maus, Alec, the best of American Splendor, or Hicksville, in my opinion.
    I really can't see the appeal of Alec. I really tried, but it's one of the few books I've ever given up on halfway through. Tedious to the point of being unreadable. Hicksville, Maus and particularly American Splendor are all good - but none would make my top 10.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadboy80 View Post
    I don't want to offend or get yelled at by any long time fans, but i never read Swampthing until the NU52 reboot. I have to say i love every issue. So if the classic stories are half as good I would say that yes this may be the best book written to date.
    It's not going to offend anyone - half the people I see in comic stores probably weren't born when it was released. If you like ST, well, pretty much everything that has come since was done better in Moore's run IMO. Snyder's run was strong until Rot World, and I'm a big fan of what Soule is doing right now, but Moore turned a B-grade horror story monster into one of the most interesting characters in all of comics, which is a pretty impressive feat for a walking, talking, pile of leaf mulch.

  3. #48
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    Well, as a point of beginning, let me say I love your top ten. There's things I'm ignorant about-- Kamui, in particular-- but there's a lot there that I like. Perhaps a lot of what I will argue is quibbling, but I think we'd both agree that Moore's ST is great, but not the most important comics run of all time.

    Argument #1: Shocked Supenstories. Unquestionably great material, but not really of a piece stylistically. (Which may be its strength.) I can't really justify it as one true run because it's so varied. Whereas I see Kurtzman's war stories as being stylistically uniform. He was writing, drawing, and doing breakdowns for other artists. It's a true statement of a singular vision. I don't think we can say that about Feldstein's work, as great as it is.

    Argument #2: Miracleman is spectacular, but part of a movement. The first year of American Flagg! is the ur-point of that movement, and I think it has been marginalized simply because it's not a superhero story. The storytelling techniques that Moore (and others) would use were developed in AF!, and while the deconstructionist elements of Miracleman were novel, it's hard to say that they weren't done better, Marshall Law, in particular. (Alan would actually agree with this.)

    Argument #3: Fantastic Four by Lee and Kirby. Personally, I love it. Massively important for shifting the paradigm as far as what superhero comics could be. That said, as massively important as it is, we can't treasure all of it. I think the impression of the Kirby/Lee FF is largely predicated on years four through six, and as brilliant as that work is, what comes before and after is only important for its novelty. Can't argue against its inclusion, though.

    Argument #4: Dropsie Avenue. Incredible work, to be sure. Not in the league of Maus, Alec, the best of American Splendor, or Hicksville, in my opinion. It's important as a milestone, but easily surpased in the genre.

    Argument #5: Forever People by Jack Kirby. Really? I can see the argument for New Gods, but Forever People was a hamfisted mess. (I say that as someone who loves it on its own terms.) Even as part of a whole, it's that dodgy corner that doesn't quite fit right... and not in a good way.

    Argument #6: Dr Strange by Ditko and Lee. One of my favorite runs of all time, and in my opinion, early Marvel's finest moment. Hard to criticize, but I think Englehart and Brunner did it better. Still, I think this is the one of your top ten that I'm most behind. At nine or ten, though.

    Argument #7: "Apocalypse Nerd" by Peter Bagge. Yeah, I get it. Great stuff. Not sure it's better than prime underground stuff or even Bryan Talbot's early work. It's hard to gauge Bagge because he runs in his own direction. I guess there's antecedents in the undergrounds that are more influencial, but I'm not sure if any of them are truly influencial. Also, Evan Dorkin's work, which is right there with Bagge's, in my opinion.

    Agreed on L&R: Human Diastrophism. Feel you're missing Mi Vida Loca.

    Argument #8: "Rites of Spring". Brilliant single issue. Perhaps Bissette's best-- and I love Bissette's work-- but not Moore's.

    I love the discussion, though.
    I mentiioned the weak DEADMAN story but I find FOREVER PEOPLE to be a frantic struggle of young people from New Genesis who want to find their own place and avoid the war and madness that plagued their society. It just seems to be Kirby's comment on the hippy generation and the madness of the Vietnam War, one that the "Flower Children" neither understood nor wanted to participate in, very much like the Children From New Genesis. What The Forever People didn't know was that Beautiful Dreamer, one of their party, was somehow connected to the Anti-Life Equation Darkseid was seeking and It was no accident that this was the series in which Darkseid appeared the
    most.

    There were also many memorable characters: Sonny Sumo and Billion Dollar Bates, both possessors of the Equation--and there is a contrast between how each chose to utilize it. There is the despicable GLORIOUS GODFREY the manipulator of minds and hearts; and the landlady of the apartment (building?) where the Forever People stayed, who herself may have been somewhat influenced by Dickens' Mrs.Haversham character from GREAT EXPECTATIONS; like Haversham, the old woman was living in the past
    before the Forever People showed up.

    And there were some great lines--these are NOT exact quotations but they went something like these:

    GLORIOUS GODFREY: "Justifiers need no reason for their hatred, I give them a reason and that's why they love me!"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DARKSEID: "Billion Dollar Bates--oh how cruel the Fates, to put the Anti-Life Equation within the form of a mewling jackanape while I, the possessor of ultimate power, must hunger for that knowledge!"

    BIG BEAR (In response): "Yes, the fates can be terribly democratic--SIRE!"
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    DARKSEID: "War may be hell, but only when fought by a sloppy military!"

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What I remember about JIMMY OLSEN were the new concepts; Of THE NEW GODS, only "The Glory Boat" jumps out at me and I'm just not impressed with Orion; and what I remember about MISTER MIRACLE is the humor and the relationship between Scott Free and BIG BARDA-- but before "The Deadman Debacle", THE FOREVER PEOPLE was on its way to becoming the best of the FOURTH WORLD books. As I said, it's a very under-rated--and under-appreciated series.

    As for KAMUI, the first story THE ISLE OF SUGARU was compiled in a two volume TRDPBK colletion, but this was just a prelude for an even better saga called "THE SWORD WIND" that was reprinted in the US by VIZ. There were 37 issues altogether of the comic book. It's about a former ninja who finds himself living with a simple fisher-man's family. The problem is that the fisherman's wife is ALSO a former ninja who believes Kamui was actually sent to kill her--so she tries to kill him first without letting her husband find out! If it sounds like a movie, yes, it was adapted to film. But again, I think THE SWORD WIND was even better.

    As for TOMB OF DRACULA, lets just agree to disagree, I am totally mesmerized by that series; I've read it several times and STILL can't get enough!
    Last edited by LEADER DESSLOK; 10-10-2013 at 10:56 PM.
    FAV Comics: Lil' ABNER, DICK TRACY, BATMAN, UNCLE SCROOGE, KAMUI, TOMB OF DRACULA, THE MIGHTY THOR by LEE\KIRBY, WONDER WOMAN by PEREZ\KAREN BERGER, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1-206 and EC COMICS!

  4. #49
    Say WHAT?!?!?!? FanboyStranger's Avatar
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    I think you're really pushing the Forever People as something more than it is. I can't see getting all that meaning out of it without seeing the larger archetypal picture inherent in New Gods. Moreover, just on a craft level, New Gods exceeds it by a wide margin-- the lyrical excesses of narration and dialogue that make New Gods difficult for people are multiplied several fold in Forever People. I like it, but as part of the whole. As an individual component, it's pretty lacking compared to New Gods.

    Thanks for the info on Kumai. I want to check it out now.

  5. #50
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FanboyStranger View Post
    I think you're really pushing the Forever People as something more than it is. I can't see getting all that meaning out of it without seeing the larger archetypal picture inherent in New Gods. Moreover, just on a craft level, New Gods exceeds it by a wide margin-- the lyrical excesses of narration and dialogue that make New Gods difficult for people are multiplied several fold in Forever People. I like it, but as part of the whole. As an individual component, it's pretty lacking compared to New Gods.

    Thanks for the info on Kumai. I want to check it out now.
    I think the main difference between us is that I prefer the more personal, human interaction which takes place within THE FOURTH WORLD series while you seem to favor the more operatic aspects of it, the presence of which, I definitely acknowledge. I enjoyed the characters in FOREVER PEOPLE and Scott Free and Big Barda in MISTER MIRACLE, more than those in the other "chapters"\titles\books. This is not inconsistent with me as I noticed this in another thread dealing with great sci-fi films. While most people tended to mention stuff like 2001 or FORBIDDEN PLANET which put emphasis on the SCI-FI, I was more interested in stuff like PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO or THE LAST WOMAN ON EARTH, stuff where the SCI-Fi was in the background while the movie focused on the human responses to those fantastic situations. That's just me.

    I do hope you enjoy KAMUI, it's about a ninja and there is a lot of action but again--humanity is at the center of that action. GOOD LUCK!
    FAV Comics: Lil' ABNER, DICK TRACY, BATMAN, UNCLE SCROOGE, KAMUI, TOMB OF DRACULA, THE MIGHTY THOR by LEE\KIRBY, WONDER WOMAN by PEREZ\KAREN BERGER, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1-206 and EC COMICS!

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