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  1. #121
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    The end is so close now, and I don't want it to come.

    Batman's prospects among his other books seem bleak in comparison.
    Grandparents dead - please no jokes

    make mine DC, thanks

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughNTumble View Post
    The end is so close now, and I don't want it to come.

    Batman's prospects among his other books seem bleak in comparison.
    Totally, anybody who has been with this run since the beginning and also started reading the New 52 Batbooks will start seeing a major drop in quality and a lot of rehashing of things that have already been done better in the past. Since this run pretty much takes place in pre New 52, there is no continuation at all; with the next issue any ties to old 52 is forever done for Batman.

    I guess the only thing they can do to top this is out Bruce as Bats, but since in the New 52 he just started his career that's not gonna happen. I wish they did a storyline like that in the old 52, so much lost potential.
    Last edited by charliehustle415; 07-04-2013 at 04:05 AM.

  3. #123

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    Read it and loved it. It does seems like they doged some of the cliffhanger of 10 with Batman having used the man-bat serum although I suppose both the suit of sorrows and the anitdote bats played a role in that.

    Burnham's art was sensational. Fantastic that he got a whole issue of incredible art done. Here's hoping that Burnham can pull off issue 13.

    The reveal with Heretic was pretty sad. I suppose this almost closes off the 666 future entirely now.

    One more issue seems like nothing to wrap up the story although by this point it really only needs a final confrontation between Talia and Batman. I'm guessing Kathy will only make a cameo or may not even be identified by name so that the new 52 can sweep the past under the rug more comfortably.

  4. #124
    Senior Member AJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey View Post
    Dude, gross. The Heretic was a monster, a Leviathon,

    His death was mercy
    He's an abused and manipulated child in a scientifically altered body and he was as much a son of Bruce Wayne as Damian was when they first met.

  5. #125
    Senior Member AJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    The future Batman and 666 is really quiet easily explained. Damian was supposed to sell his soul to Dr. Hurt. That's what sets that future on it's course. Bruce saw his vision in the Return of Bruce Wayne. As we saw in that issue, Dr. Hurt was just coming to Wayne manner when all of that took place. Which means, Bruce returned, prior to most of the events of Morrison's final 4 issues of Batman and Robin. Those were issues 14-16. I believe the selling of the soul scene was teased for issue 15. Well after Hurt came to the house. As we know, Damian did not sell his soul during the final battle, and that's what prevented the future.

    As we know, Bruce saw that future before Damian failed to make his pact with Hurt and therefore his vision of the future was faulty.
    Sorry, no, this isn't what happened at all. As we see in Inc.#5, Damian only sells his soul AFTER the death of the Bruce Wayne Batman of Batman Incorporated, which never happens. It's always been discussed as 'The Night The Batman Died', and as we know Batman has never died. The selling of Damian's soul as seen in Bruce's vision is a future event probably a year or two in the future when Damian is 14 which we haven't seen yet.

  6. #126
    Senior Member jgiannantoni05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJM View Post
    As we see in Inc.#5, Damian only sells his soul AFTER the death of the Bruce Wayne Batman of Batman Incorporated, which never happens. It's always been discussed as 'The Night The Batman Died', and as we know Batman has never died. The selling of Damian's soul as seen in Bruce's vision is a future event – probably a year or two in the future when Damian is 14 – which we haven't seen yet.
    This is correct. Damian's refusal to sell in B&R 14-16 was meaningless to the 666 possibility.

    Bruce Wayne Batman's death is the first dominoe, or trigger, in allowing the opportunity for Damian to sell his soul, causing the 666 future.
    Last edited by jgiannantoni05; 07-04-2013 at 10:13 AM.
    DC discarded their history, and now has none. DC will always be in the shadows of their past work.

  7. #127
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    666 -> what actually happened
    A Batman dies -> Dickbats almost dies
    Damian sells his soul -> Damian refuses to do so when Hurt proposes. The cover teases this event, showing Damian raising his hand and swearing an oath

    In my opinion, this whole 666 future is just one big hint at events that were going to happen later in the run. It was never going to happen so Morrison showed how it was averted. Dick didnt die and Damian saw through the smoke and mirrors and saw Hurt for the buffoon he was and didnt sell his soul. The cover of the issue promised that it would happen but it didnt.

    There was never going to be another situation where a Batman would die and the Devil would ask Damian for his soul. It has already happened, just not the way Hurt wanted.
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 07-04-2013 at 11:17 AM.

  8. #128
    Senior Member jgiannantoni05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    A Batman dies -> Dick almost dies
    Damian sells his soul -> Damian refuses to do so when Hurt proposes. The cover teases this event, showing Damian raising his hand and swearing an oath

    In my opinion, this whole 666 future is just one big hint at events that were going to happen later in the run. It was never going to happen so Morrison showed how it was averted. Dick didnt die and Damian saw through the smoke and mirrors and saw Hurt for the buffoon he was and didnt sell his soul. The cover of the issue promised that it would happen but it didnt.

    There was never going to be another situation where a Batman would die and the Devil would ask Damian for his soul. It has already happened, just not the way Hurt wanted.
    Then why was the 666 future still in play in Incorporated? Because see AJM's post. The particular 666-triggering offer was after Bruce died, Damian was 14, Crime Alley, etc.

    All the offer was in B&R was an early attempt of Hurt's that failed. And 666 was still in play despite that failure. Ergo, the B&R moment wasn't really the offer.
    Last edited by jgiannantoni05; 07-04-2013 at 11:39 AM.
    DC discarded their history, and now has none. DC will always be in the shadows of their past work.

  9. #129
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    I assume that 666 was always going to be in play. It just seems odd that there would be another event where Batman (nearly in this case) dies and the Devil asks Damian for his soul. The same series of events for the second time? Why? And how would it happen if Hurt (Morrison's avatar of the devil in his batman story) is dead and Morrison's run is coming to an end? If anything he didnt even plan as far as Inc (he said so himself) so i dont think he was going to stage this series of events again. And cancelling everything with a simple "damian just died so it wont happen" seems too easy.

    I think Damianbats' origin (batman dies and he sells his soul) is a hint for B&R 15 and 16. The issue where everyone outside Arkham is mad and only Damian and Babs remain was a hint for the Leviathan story where Talia has mind controlled all these people who are acting like zombies.

    In other words this was always going to be a story that would never happen. Both because Morrison would avert it and because DC Comics will never move to the future. 100 years from now Bruce will still be in his mid 30ies fighting the Joker. So what Morrison did was use it as a mirror that hints at things we would see later in his run.
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 07-04-2013 at 11:38 AM.

  10. #130
    Senior Member jgiannantoni05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    And cancelling everything with a simple "damian just died so it wont happen" seems too easy.
    Well, too easy or not, that's what happened here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    So what Morrison did was use it as a mirror that hints at things we would see later in his run.
    This is indisputable. But still, that future and its triggers can considered seriously for the fun of it. Damian's death cancelled things.
    DC discarded their history, and now has none. DC will always be in the shadows of their past work.

  11. #131
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    It did. Damn it Morrison, why did you have to kill one of the best new characters in comics?

  12. #132
    Senior Member jgiannantoni05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Damn it Morrison, why did you have to kill one of the best new characters in comics?
    In various interviews, his many varied reasons have been explained sufficiently for me. Sand back in the sandbox (like ouroboros), the ultimate heroic sacrifice for a once-villainous brat, sparing any writers the burden of Damian, aging Batman too much (how would Damian age?), originally intended, etc.
    Last edited by jgiannantoni05; 07-04-2013 at 12:24 PM.
    DC discarded their history, and now has none. DC will always be in the shadows of their past work.

  13. #133
    Member BadBoy House's Avatar
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    Can anyone remind me what oroboro is and what part it plays in the story?

  14. #134
    Junior Member rpi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadBoy House View Post
    Can anyone remind me what oroboro is and what part it plays in the story?
    The Ouroboros is the snake that is eating its own tail. It is the name of the world destruction weapon that Dr. Daedelus invented for Talia that is currently in the hands of Nightwing. It is also a symbolic cue for the overall themes in the Morrison Batman storyline of repeating actions and errors, failing to learn lessons, and the cyclical attacks on Batman by Darkseid's Hyper-adaptor.

  15. #135
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpi View Post
    The Ouroboros is the snake that is eating its own tail. It is the name of the world destruction weapon that Dr. Daedelus invented for Talia that is currently in the hands of Nightwing. It is also a symbolic cue for the overall themes in the Morrison Batman storyline of repeating actions and errors, failing to learn lessons, and the cyclical attacks on Batman by Darkseid's Hyper-adaptor.
    Summed up into four words... The World Is Round.

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